tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post7532553966007946820..comments2023-09-16T05:02:33.288-06:00Comments on McGowdoghouse: McGowdog dives into those Triennial Surveys of A.A. MembershipMcGowdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16866948381728741656noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-58518974763111807212010-02-11T11:51:10.059-07:002010-02-11T11:51:10.059-07:00Madeline, could you publish a list of what areas o...Madeline, could you publish a list of what areas of life people are allowed to turn to God for help and which areas are off limits?<br />After all you seem to want to take the reins when it comes to other peoples methods and programs. <br />That's by far the best part of AA recovery as opposed to all other methods and programs. We AAs have no desire to stick our noses into other programs and tell them how wrong they are.<br />Lifering... "Wrong"<br />Smart...... "Wrong"<br />SOS........ "Wrong"<br />MM......... "Wrong"<br />Will Power.."Wrong"<br />Rehab......."Wrong"<br /><br />Oh wait!!!! That's none of my business. Never mind.<br /><br />We AAs decide to deflate our swolen Alcoholic Egos and accept the fact that we don't know what's best for everyone out there and other people need to do with their lives.<br /><br />Newsflash Madeline,,, neither do you. <br />Maybe you have a "Mommy Complex" and as said before, you need to see someone.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162857810066427815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-65667402995577801892010-02-11T11:11:43.892-07:002010-02-11T11:11:43.892-07:00There a very few time in my life when I've bee...There a very few time in my life when I've been absolutely at a loss for words; when I read something that is so stupid, so senseless, so bizarre, that I have no response to it. One such time has just occurred. I read the words "What does God have to do with sobriety?" I can only respond that if you have to ask that question, no answer will ever suffice.<br /><br />So guys, I guess the truth about AA if finally out. We've been exposed. There are folks out there that actually know the truth about the program. They probably know about our secret initiation ceremonies, our secret underground headquarters, our handshake, our ability to brainwash innocents who walk in the door. Egads! They probably know everything!!<br /><br />Dowg, talking with Madeline is, in the words of Barney Frank, like talking to my dining room table. I'll check back by when someone comes on with something intelligent to say.joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16266375123411463390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-90574056766510360672010-02-11T09:28:30.074-07:002010-02-11T09:28:30.074-07:00"Tony...yes it is a fact. I could care less w..."Tony...yes it is a fact. I could care less what god you believe in. What I do care about is that you and your aa cohorts lie to new members about what god will do or not do for them based on your "spiritual" beliefs."<br /><br />You brought up the question of my God, not I. So if you could care less you have a funny way of showing it.<br /><br />Dawg thinks you are a Christian, but you aren't. Any Christian would understand a God that would help them on a personal level. And I do me 'any' Christian. You might be a JW or Mormon or one of the other non-Christians that claim to be Christians ? Although I would think they would rely on God to help them with an addiction also....so, whatever god you are talking about, it isn't the God of most people. <br /><br />If your measly little pagan god can keep you sober though, more power to you. It's no skin off my nose.Tony Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015153103133728577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-15754111270629555492010-02-11T09:14:44.550-07:002010-02-11T09:14:44.550-07:00Ok... we're back.
Fine, Madeline. Do you want...Ok... we're back.<br /><br />Fine, Madeline. Do you want us to argue religion and spirituality with you?<br /><br />A.A. doesn't lie about anything. If it did, it wouldn't calibrate at 540. That's the overall collective level of the program portion of the book. Take the last 4 chapters out and I'd bet that goes up to above 600. IDK, just a theory of mine. I will test the individual chapters sometime.<br /><br />And no, I'm not gonna explain that to you because you'd argue with a fence post. I'm not gonna cast those pearls to swine anymore.<br /><br />A.A.s 12 steps work. We don't believe in spirituality just as we don't believe in God.<br /><br />That's right. We know God.<br /><br />If your conscious awareness was raised to a high enough level, you would see this. But you don't. You're down at the level of guilt, shame, and sometimes rise to the level of anger ... aka condemnation and vengeance. And we are well above that and above the level of the intellect which tops off at 499. But get this; we are downwardly compatible. So we can get down into the mud with you for a while. But we won't wallow there with you for no good purpose.<br /><br />Lately, you've been on a victim kick. Why? Because it's been a profitable business for some lately.<br /><br />But in any case, 10 or 11 months does not an expert on the A.A. program you make. An expert on the fellowship? Sure.McGowdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16866948381728741656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-29065316410501704622010-02-11T09:00:01.379-07:002010-02-11T09:00:01.379-07:00I don't know what the hell's going on. I c...I don't know what the hell's going on. I can't comment on my own damned blog. So I removed the last two to see if that's why it was jammed up. Still can't comment, so I'm gonna put Madeline's last comments here for now; <br /><br />Madeline said... <br />Joe...I have no desire to argue the existence of God. What does God have to do with sobriety? You need not try to clear up anything for me, I have a very good understanding of aa and it's lies. From my very first meeting I heard the party line...aa is spiritual not religious...bogus the first time and still bogus today. Thank you however for taking the time to parrot the misinformation again. <br />February 11, 2010 6:15 AM <br /><br />Madeline said... <br />Tony...yes it is a fact. I could care less what god you believe in. What I do care about is that you and your aa cohorts lie to new members about what god will do or not do for them based on your "spiritual" beliefs.McGowdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16866948381728741656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-51576416588060190672010-02-10T22:32:04.834-07:002010-02-10T22:32:04.834-07:00Madeline, You need to work on understanding the di...Madeline, You need to work on understanding the difference between religion and spitituality. Tony kindly provided a definition of religion for you. I'll give you a definition of spitituality. If you believe in a higher power, then spirituality is your personal relationship with that higher power. If you don't believe in a higher power, and think that you're the end product of human evolution (the HNFIC) then read no further. Religion and Spirituality are mutually exclusive. One does not support the other.<br /><br />I said AA is not a religious program. It isn't. It is, however, a spiritual program. Since you know very little about AA in actuality, I thought that this might clear up the issue for you. If you want to continue in your beliefs about AA, go ahead. But you really should make an effort to understand the program. Having sat in some meetings doesn't qualify you as an authority. Sorry about that.<br />And I can't help but think that those people whom you admire because they know "the true nature of AA" probably have very strong opinions, but don't know jack shit about the program. <br /><br />As I said, "Condemnation without investigation...." I'd be interested in how they qualify themselves as experts on the "true nature". Some credentials, please. And my three paragraphs had nothing to do with conversion. I was simply trying to explain to you how one developes the concept of a higher power. Conversion has nothing to do with it. Conversion is a religious experience whereas one comes to believe in the tenets of a particular religion. If you polled atendees at an AA meetings, you find quite a diversity in religious beliefs. All AA asks is that you accept the concept that there's something out there that's greater than you. That's it. Simple.<br /><br />And Madeline, if you really want to agrue about the existence of God, go argue with a theologian. Read some of the great philosophers. Religion doesn't matter. All of them have great thinkers. <br /><br />If you want to continue you pseudo-sophisticated attack on something you know nothing about, clinging to the conspiracy theories of those who "know the true nature of AA" then you're free to do that, also. Just please take your tirades to someone who gives a shit. (Hey Dowg, do you think they found out our secret handshake?)joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16266375123411463390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-39183636213942022892010-02-10T18:40:32.335-07:002010-02-10T18:40:32.335-07:00Well... for one thing, her God has a [G] and your ...Well... for one thing, her God has a [G] and your god has a [g].<br /><br />Step yer game up Tony.McGowdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16866948381728741656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-15430210671549495282010-02-10T18:10:15.181-07:002010-02-10T18:10:15.181-07:00"Tony...that's quite the assumption you m..."Tony...that's quite the assumption you make. For the record I do believe in God...just not your god."<br /><br />Is that a fact ?<br /><br />What God do I believe in, since you're not one to make assumptions.....tell me all about myself, I'm waiting to hear.Tony Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015153103133728577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-31441220117019740752010-02-10T17:04:11.666-07:002010-02-10T17:04:11.666-07:00That's right, Tony. I've heard her story ...That's right, Tony. I've heard her story before. She's not atheist and may even be Christian. So... she's an authority on how A.A. is not only "religious", but does not serve alcoholics well and also does not serve "godly" people.<br /><br />The question I always would pose to our alcoholic prospects who already have a wonderful relationship with God is this, "Your understanding of God may be far superior to mine" as the book says... but how's it working on keeping you off the booze?<br /><br />And to the people who get and stay sober without A.A., "Good day ma'am..." with the tip of my hat.<br /><br /><br />Oh, and I see Stinkin' Thinkin' has a new feature; The Dunce Room.<br /><br />""<br /><br />Stinkin’ Thinkin’ has a policy no censorship, and we will allow just about anything short of personal threats and the publication of another person’s private information. That is not to say that we would not ban anyone, but it would take a class A asshole to meet the standard that it would take to get there. We have this policy for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, we believe the best way to learn and understand is with a free exchange of ideas. Beyond that, free speech tells a lot about a person, and much of the vile we see here in our comments section says more about the person writing it than we could ever articulate.<br /><br />Unfortunately, most of the truly crazy gets lost in abyss of the comment section, and that is a shame, because much of what we see written here re-enforces the very things we write about – specifically the use of shut down aphorisms, personal attacks and thought stopping sayings; as well as the flawed logic and irrational thinking that characterizes so many who have fallen under the spell of AA.<br /><br />We thought we would create a space to highlight the most egregious comments, or those that are so outrageously stupid, that they break the most basic premise of a civil discussion – and that is that we premise are arguments on at least a smidgen of reality.<br /><br />Below you will find a listing of some, but not all of the of the infractions in discourse that will land you in the dunce room:<br /><br />————————————————————————————————-<br /><br />Godbotting Making an argument based on what the ‘Big Book’ says, as though it is the authoritative word. Make your arguments based on logic and reason, not on your holy scriptures. <br />Gaslighting Presenting false information as though it is factually correct, and basing your argument on this information; pretending what is patently obvious is not; you may have your own opinions, but not your own facts on which you base them. <br />Slogabosity The excessive use of AA slogans in a single comment. We understand that using only a couple of slogans shows tremendous restraint for an AA, but anything beyond that we really cannot tolerate. <br />Logical Fallacies So many are used by AAs, and so often, that it is impossible to itemize them here. We know them when we see them, and we will point out the more egregious ones here. <br />Serenity Ranting This is when you come stomping in here with your rage on, and start shrieking about how perfectly goddamn happy and peaceful you are. <br />Plagiarism Don’t. <br />Lunacy This blog isn’t a share session. We don’t have to tolerate delusion. <br />Stupidity Reserved for only a jaw dropping display of idiocy. <br /><br />""<br /><br />Oh, and I want to bump this request up too;<br /><br />Can someone contact Rob via email or something and let him know he made the "Quote of the Day" over at Stinkin' Thinkin'?<br /><br /><br />Oh, and Ago sort of just joined our ranks I heard. Wonder if he'd accept our invite to here and RF? Can anybody contact him?McGowdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16866948381728741656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-33596315782523073642010-02-10T16:46:35.591-07:002010-02-10T16:46:35.591-07:00Karl...people are free to believe what they want.....Karl...people are free to believe what they want...even you and your aa friends. If you think that I might entertain a suggestion from the likes of you guess again. I tend to take my suggestions from people whom I respect...people who lie about the true nature of aa do not fall into that category.Madelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652030183344608072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-64888586248192664612010-02-10T16:39:57.859-07:002010-02-10T16:39:57.859-07:00Tony...that's quite the assumption you make. F...Tony...that's quite the assumption you make. For the record I do believe in God...just not your god.Madelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652030183344608072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-74709728789196337072010-02-10T16:01:16.891-07:002010-02-10T16:01:16.891-07:00HMFIC! Ooray Joe!
That's one spiritual muthe...HMFIC! Ooray Joe!<br /><br />That's one spiritual muther-fucker there.<br /><br />Can someone contact Rob via email or something and let him know he made the "Quote of the Day" over at Stinkin' Thinkin'?<br /><br />Oh, and Ago sort of just joined our ranks I heard. Wonder if he'd accept our invite to here and RF? Can anybody contact him?McGowdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16866948381728741656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-32423430064581584952010-02-10T15:43:56.769-07:002010-02-10T15:43:56.769-07:00Religion :
"1. a set of beliefs concerning t...Religion :<br /><br />"1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. "<br /><br />Does AA fit into that ? <br />Not really. It has some religious qualities but all in all it does not fit the definition of a 'religion'.<br /><br />The real problem the anti-AA's have is that they see people giving God credit for something. They don't believe in God and are fanatical in their religious observence of atheism. <br /><br />They aren't mad because AA hurts people, they're mad because it helps poeple and that threatens their core beliefe system. <br /><br />This is why they don't offer an alternative solution. They aren't interested in a solution for alcoholism. They're only concerned with getting talk of God out of the public forum.<br /><br />This is also why they 'must' be right and we 'must' be wrong. We bother them alot more than they bother us, mostly because they think about us more than we think of them. <br /><br />Sad, in an amusing sort of way.Tony Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015153103133728577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-67582336908603973502010-02-10T15:28:59.575-07:002010-02-10T15:28:59.575-07:00For what it's worth. If I never went to a meet...For what it's worth. If I never went to a meeting again I would do just fine. You may have been lead to believe that AA is all about meetings. It's not. AA is a Program that involves action. None of those actions involve meetings. <br />I go to meetings to help others that may need AAs help. Even though you insist that they don't, they do. <br />The real question is "What makes you so Goddamn Right when nobody else is"?Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162857810066427815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-13155274346142472412010-02-10T15:25:09.437-07:002010-02-10T15:25:09.437-07:00Madeline, what people believe to be the truth far ...Madeline, what people believe to be the truth far outweighs what may or may not be the truth. <br />What people believe to be the truth isn't really any of your concern. <br />If you really think people must believe as you do in order to be right then you're really screwed up. As I suggest, you need to see someone about your complex.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162857810066427815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-30488466744017418822010-02-10T15:17:52.465-07:002010-02-10T15:17:52.465-07:00Joe..you have been convinced you can't help yo...Joe..you have been convinced you can't help yourself. You started out saying aa isn't religious and moved right into believing that some "higher power" can help you. You typed 3 paragraphs explaining the conversion. Come...come too...come to believe.<br /> Typical and expected.Madelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652030183344608072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-31235291568982678092010-02-10T14:42:51.810-07:002010-02-10T14:42:51.810-07:00"My alternative was to quit consuming alcohol..."My alternative was to quit consuming alcohol...a hard concept for for someone who takes no responsibility for their actions".<br /><br />Exactly why I said not to let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. <br /><br />Sorry you have the big shot syndrome where you feel compelled to save the world from something that really doesn't matter in the first place just because you don't agree with it.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162857810066427815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-35067656044163112532010-02-10T14:35:23.164-07:002010-02-10T14:35:23.164-07:00I've got a little problem here. "aa's...I've got a little problem here. "aa's theology"<br />What the hell is that? And where in AA is there any semblance of a religious belief system? We're not talking religion or a worship service here. We're talking about a program that helps drunks to stay sober. It's not fucking rocket science.<br /><br />One principle of the AA program that we need to look at is that I as an individual am not the center of the universe that I think I am when I first walk in the doors. If I am, then there's nothing bigger and better out there than me. And if I am the biggest thing, the highest power in this universe, that there is nothing out there higher than me, then humanity is truly fucked. And I am fucked, also. I want to get sober, and I've tried to quit drinking but all my self-help programs didn't work too well. So I walk into AA because I can't help myself. But I believe that I'm the HMFIC (Head mother fucker in charge) and I can't do it, then it can't be done, can it?<br /><br />But suppose my thinking is a bit off here. Suppose there might be something out there bigger than I am. I don't give a shit what you call it, but it's a higher power than me. It could be Mother Earth, Buddha, some unknown creature in the Cosmos. It doesn't fucking matter. It's bigger than me. So I have an "Aha" moment. Maybe, if I really believe in this higher power, if I'm really sincere here (and I don't give a shit how you measure sincerity - animal sacrifice, incense burning, drum dances, prayer) maybe this higher power can help me recover from alcoholism as I sure as shit can't do it myself. <br /><br />So if I grab onto this concept of some higher power - doesn't matter what it is - and if I come to believe that this power can help me, does this make it "aa theology"? Does make this a "religious belief system"? And please don't throw that "rational person" shit at me.<br />It an expression that's been overused too much. Think of another trite phrase to impress me with your intellectual superiority. <br /><br />Most people who walk out of AA do so because they don't want to stop drinking. It has nothing to do with this bullshit about religion, theology, the phases of the moon, an overdue library book, or anything else. They want to drink. If they want to quit and they're willing to do some fucking work to stay sober, then they stick around. It's that fucking simple. Those that come to meetings and just sit there aren't sober, they're just abstaining from booze. And there's a big difference between the two.<br /><br />How successful is AA? Nobody knows. What's success? 5 years in the program? 10 years? 20? I was in for 10 years and went back out. So was I successful one day and not the next. Where am I on the tri-annual survey. I guess it depends on which day it was given.<br /><br />So lets cut this shit out about religion, cults, or anything else you want to toss at AA. It's a simple program to help alcoholics get and stay sober. And we're talking about both physical and emotional sobriety. Granted, it doesn't work for everyone. Bill Wilson was the first to admit that AA doesn't have a patent on sobriety. If you don't like AA, that's fine. I hope you have a good Plan B. I really do. You need to find whatever works to keep you sober. But don't throw stones at AA. A wise man once said that contempt prior to investigation is the height of ignorance.joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16266375123411463390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-84010978722219538922010-02-10T14:30:20.003-07:002010-02-10T14:30:20.003-07:00Who is "blindly" bashing aa? I didn'...Who is "blindly" bashing aa? I didn't give you an excuse for anything...I gave you a reason why. It is you who has become blinded.<br /><br />My alternative was to quit consuming alcohol...a hard concept for for someone who takes no responsibility for their actions.Madelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652030183344608072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-46686266457048532622010-02-10T14:24:05.342-07:002010-02-10T14:24:05.342-07:00If you really gave a shit you would be pushing an ...If you really gave a shit you would be pushing an alternative as opposed to blindly bashing AA. Therefore your excuse doesn't cut it.<br />You never hear any intelligent salesman bashing the other guys product regardless. their success is gained on how well they promote their own.<br />I've heard that other recovery concepts really don't do much but bitch about AA in their meetings. <br />And to think you call "Us" the sick ones. <br />Go Figure.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162857810066427815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-3758693277196163852010-02-10T14:21:53.392-07:002010-02-10T14:21:53.392-07:00Hey Dawg.
It's interesting how anti-AA's ...Hey Dawg.<br /><br />It's interesting how anti-AA's are hoisted on their own petard with that treinnial survey.<br /><br />They really aren't the best and brightet. They honestly think they are but they fall a little short of the average IQ, methinks. <br /><br />As far as anyone going ballistic at any mention of God, that's just a sign of the radical athiesm that's popular now among the bourgeois.Tony Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015153103133728577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-41482590686442547682010-02-10T14:15:32.294-07:002010-02-10T14:15:32.294-07:00I don't have the desire because I don't li...I don't have the desire because I don't like aa...I speak out because aa and it's adherents lie to sick vulnerable people looking for help. <br /><br />Speaking up about the many misconceptions regarding alcoholism found in aa is nothing like complaining that the boys scouts made you go camping.Madelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652030183344608072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-22012300901695779002010-02-10T13:56:24.615-07:002010-02-10T13:56:24.615-07:00AA is a spiritual program. Here's a quote from...AA is a spiritual program. Here's a quote from the AA Big Book Pg 45,<br />" And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God". <br /><br />That about explains AA. That's what we do.<br />Bitching and Complaining about AA and all their talk of God is like bitching about the Boy Scouts because those bastards made you go camping.<br />In a nutshell, the door swings both ways and don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out.<br />However, if you feel an incessand desire to go into cyber space and tell all how bad AA is just because you didn't like it, I suggest you seek professional help somewhere.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162857810066427815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-51791268701688177382010-02-10T13:26:35.365-07:002010-02-10T13:26:35.365-07:00The "something" that is expected is to a...The "something" that is expected is to adopt aa's theology. Most rational thinking people, religious or not, understand a religious belief system when they see it. Once they see it they leave...faith healing is a hard concept to sell...McGow thinks 1 out of 7 fall for it. Not too bad.Madelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652030183344608072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181024902947380214.post-25017902788844910212010-02-10T13:04:07.571-07:002010-02-10T13:04:07.571-07:00What the hell is wrong with saying this???
"...What the hell is wrong with saying this???<br /><br />"Something is still expected from the people that come to AA. The fact that something is expected (like a relationship with God and the 12 Steps) is what causes people to leave..."<br /><br />That's exactly what AA is and was intended to be. Were you expecting something else??Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162857810066427815noreply@blogger.com