McGowdoghouse

I have a resentment against hospitals and treatment centers

2012-02-05T10:42:00.000-07:00

Specifically, Parkview Medical Center in Pueblo Colorado and some hospital in Denver Colorado... can't remember which one.

Why? They fucked me over monetarily. They screwed me and my family out of money and did so willingly and without remorse.

The first time it happened, I was at Metro State College at Denver and I was seeing ok one minute and the next minute, I had blind spots. I was living with my parents at the time as a full-time student. I went to the campus nurse and they were concerned about me so they sent me to the local hospital for a CT scan. Turns out I'm allergic to iodine. Turns out, I was probably just having a fucking migraine headache, my first to date at the time. The stupid fucks there kept asking me if I had taken cocaine or some shit. I had not. Months later, I'd have bills coming from collection agencies to pay off late radiologist bills and shit. The hospital did nothing for me except to give me an epinephrine shot to counteract the blood dye for the fucking CT scan. The ass fuckers didn't even diagnose my introduction to the occasional migraine. So... $800.00 later to fix my credit.

Fastforward to one of my latest drunks... the hotel incident. I tear apart part of a hotel in a drunken rage and make amends to the hotel manager... to the tune of 800 bucks. No problem. But multiply that figure by 10... and that's what Parkview took from me as my former employment HR department refused to pony up what a CDU in town overcharged me.

We've long since squared up those debts... but it pisses me off and makes me wonder.

They ought to teach a High School course and a Humanities College course on how to not get fucked in the ass financially. They ought to level with the student the long-term financial burden of such things as... going to the hospital/clinic/school nurse with your wallet open and without the aid of a good lawyer. They ought to level with the student the long-term financial burden attached to going out on that weekend binge, dating that stupid schmuck or who-whah...

My dad has an old adage I should have included into my HS and college studies... "A fool and his money are soon parted."

So how does this relate to an A.A. topic? ... foolish decisions... dangerous to alcoholics.

Tradition 1, Unity

2012-01-31T00:15:00.001-07:00

Just got back from my homegroup meeting and the topic was Tradition 1.

1. Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.

Gary chaired the meeting tonight and proposed this topic, as it's our new group conscience to bring the topic of the tradition of that month to our last meeting of that month. Plus we hold our group conscience after the meeting on the last Monday of the month.

So in Gary's sharing of the topic, he discussed the importance of taking care of your group. Now, several years ago, our group was getting pretty big. Maybe 18-20 people and it was growing. But our group become split on philosophy and there seemed to be split politics as well. We started meeting with active and passive resistance. Every group conscience became a struggle to change the thing into something else and some of us stood firm on the original group conscience. So eventually, the group split. The split was good for them and it was good for us. We became a very small group... but a very focussed group and the fighting stopped. The splinter group grew and flourishes today. They have close to 30 folks. But our group is about 4. We had a new guy show up tonight and he likes our format... even the crossfire.

We don't have a GSR. We don't contribute to area, the region, nor New York. We do contribute some to the local CSO, but only to get our name listed in the area meeting list. We give the rest of the money to the church we meet in. We are dedicated to showing up, doing steps yearly, chairing meetings, participating in meetings and group consciences and if we get a 12 step call, we jump on that. As a group, we don't do anything else at this time.

Unconventional? Probably. Effective? I'd say so.

To us, the still suffering alcoholic starts with the folks right there in our own group. Anybody who is new to A.A. or to our group can become a part of that if they can maybe suggest they drank a little something... aka that they might be the Real McCoy, and that they want to do something about it.

I discussed my last year and the lack of meetings and how I couldn't make my homegroup commitment due to my work schedule and how I attempted to find a new home... to land elsewhere... and how that ultimately didn't work and how I got back to my homegroup. Someone in the group crosstalked my share with the notion that "we shouldn't judge others" and stuff like that. I brought the question up in crossfire, "Is it ever right to judge another person or group with respect to A.A. and if so, how should it be done. But I asked Gary instead of the person the question was really directed at. This indirect approach sometimes works best.

What do you all think about that issue? Is it ever right to judge another? Specifically with regards to those we are doing spiritual work with? "Judge not lest ye be judged." What does that mean? Is there a caveat that comes with that?

Sanity... and how we get there.

2012-01-19T13:52:00.004-07:00

So I got to chair my first meeting in probably over half a year. I read some pages out of the book pertaining to sanity, specifically from pages 56 and 57, 70, and page 84;

Pg 56 and 57:
Thus was our friend's cornerstone fixed in place. No later vicissitude has shaken it. His alcoholic problem was taken away. That very night, years ago, it disappeared. Save for a few brief moments of temptation the though of drink has never returned; and at such times a great revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity. .

What is this but a miracle of healing? Yet its elements are simple. Circumstances made him willing to believe. He humbly offered himself to his Maker then he knew

Pg 70:
To sum up about sex: We earnestly pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity, and for the strength to do the right thing. If sex is very troublesome, we throw ourselves the harder into helping others. We think of their needs and work for them. This takes us out of ourselves. It quiets the imperious urge, when to yield would mean heartache.

Pg 84:
And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone, even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned. We will seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.

Then I added a final bit from the end of chapter 6 from page 88;
We are then in much less danger of excitement, fear, anger, worry, self-pity, or foolish decisions. We become much more efficient. We do not tire so easily, for we are not burning up energy foolishly as we did when we were trying to arrange life to suit ourselves.
&
We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all. There is action and more action. "Faith without works is dead." The next chapter is entirely devoted to Step Twelve.

So I shared my recent experience with what sanity is to me and how I've used or attempted to use discipline to remain in that state.

A pretty good discussion ensued and a pretty good crossfire discussion as well. Considerations were brought up such as;

"Do you feel you can be restored to sanity if you seemingly never knew sanity in the first place?"

"Have you ever worked with "God is my employer and if so, how so?"

"Can you engage in foolish decisions now and if so, will this mean you will wind up drunk?"

What if... I/We walked away from A.A.?

2012-01-08T15:57:00.003-07:00

Here you go Rob. Let's talk about this in all of its forms, shall we?

The only real experience I have with this is when I ... unknowingly at the time... picked a road out and went and drank booze.

But heck, I didn't need A.A. to blame for this because I did the same kind of thing when I "got sober" without A.A. in the past. I've gotten sober with and without A.A. with the full intent to never drink again, and went some time without booze and seemingly happy, content, etc. But the time came eventually where I drank for some seemingly trivial reason, a case of the fuck-its, the poor me's, etc.

I drank again because, I wanted to get laid and was nervous, because she left me, because I was offered a drink and somehow just said yes, because somebody stole my sale, because I was in California, because I was in Texas, because I "accidently" mistook rum and coke for coke, etc.

But what we're talking about here... is folks who do A.A. ... are sober and recovered in A.A. ... and just fed up with the goings on in the fellowship... or at whatever level they're fed up. Or maybe it's an internal thing.

But as RobB talks about, it's a matter of staying sober and continuing on a God-Centered path.

I brought up this notion... of "What if someone left A.A. and lead a God-centered life and stayed sober despite leaving A.A.?" at an after-A.A. diner get-together... and you'd a thought I ripped a fart during the wedding vows.

"WELL... I KNOW PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO LEFT A.A. ALL THE ONE'S I KNOW OF ARE DRUNK, DEAD, OR LOCKED UP!" Pretty much something to that effect. One gal said she knew some who did that and either drank or she just don't see them anymore... despite the fact she relocated to a town 120 miles south of where she got sober.

I credit you folks... my colleagues I've met in cyber-recovery... and the anti/XAers... who opened my eyes to some of the head-knodding-droolery and hypnosis that we can choose into and hopefully out of.

Spiritual vs Religious again... A.A. Style

2011-12-31T12:23:00.000-07:00

So I went to the noon meeting this last Thursday and the chairperson is one of the meeting founders. He opened the meeting up and proposed the topic... which I like If you're going to chair the meeting, then chair the meeting.

The topic? The Joy Of Living... as suggested due to the Daily Reflections reading. You know... 12th Month... 12th Step sort of thing.

Many of us had our relationship with our Creator as inspiration for this new-found Joy. But near the end of the meeting, the chairperson felt the need to let the "newcomers" know that being this is a spiritual program and not a religious one... that it could be misleading to think that someone must find a "God" as their "Higher Power" and that agnostics can go on being agnostics and remain sober in A.A. and atheists can go on being atheists and remain sober in A.A.

Same "Don't let the God Talk run you off" bullshit.

It is my opinion that the chairperson is wrong. It is my understanding that "We Agnostics" is a chapter written for most all of us, if not exactly all of us. It is my belief that our original founders... about half of them came in as agnostics and became believers of God... or even better, had formed a relationship with God and walked away with faith... and sobriety. That, in my estimation, makes them no longer agnostics.

Our co-founder said that it's his belief that very few of us... those that walk the earth... are atheists to begin with. Go look for yourself and see.

But I live in a world of many many atheists... true atheists, and coffee-shop God-killed-my-puppy-dog-atheists.

So, I disagree that you can come into A.A. and do the program and remain agnostic or atheist.

This ought to stir the pot.

What say you? More importantly, what's your experience? If you're a true atheist and you are "sober in A.A.", I say you're perhaps sober, and you may be in A.A., but you ain't doing A.A.

Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition 7

2011-12-28T16:53:00.002-07:00

Ok you fucking cheapskate drunks... pony up.

I will not enter an A.A. meeting if I don't have a buck on me. I usually have two bucks handy and I'll put that in... but sometimes I'm running late so... if I can't dig up 4 fucking quarters, I just won't go.

I can turn the couch upside down and find two bucks. Any bum can scrape up two bucks.

But that's just me. I could care less what you put into the basket... unless it's our 4 member home group. There, if everybody doesn't contribute 2 bucks minimum, then come rent time, somebody has to pony up the rest.

If you're a cheap drunk who had to steal or mooch or drink mouthwash, then I say you weren't/aren't alky. You're just a fucking cheap-assed bum. Or worse. You're a fucking thief.

Ask yourself... how much does one drink cost? Now how much does one fucking A.A. meeting cost?

Merry Christmas Sunday, Happy Hanukkah, Zippy Kwanzaa, Jolly Festivus, and Happy New Year!

2011-12-22T12:08:00.005-07:00

Thanks for authoring, posting, following, lurking to all!

Hope y'all have a sober and happy holidays and enjoy your fellows about you.

If you're not sober, have one on me. As my dad says, "There's a baby in every bottle."

Scientists that "know" don't know shit. Scientists that are confused are where they operate best.

2011-12-19T12:44:00.000-07:00

Watching a CSI program, I'd overheard the notion that "Every society discovers what they need to know." But then, "Each subsequent one forgets... until they learn it again."

This describes the efficacy of the recovery "industry" pretty well... imo.

This is why books would seem so vital... and why some feel so threatened by such books... if they are trying to "invent" a more profitable "industry".

Look back at the conditions of the early/mid 30s with regards to alcoholism and addictions. Was this not a hotbed of "stock" for this recovery industry? Was it not also a hotbed of spiritual application and practice?

Spirituality vs. Religion

2011-12-16T23:36:00.000-07:00

Went to a meeting today and the chair person made step two the topic, but more specifically, he was trying to inform a lot of the newcomers in the group/meeting to understand that with all the God talk lately, that they do not have to buy into some organized religion form of God.

I think it's a good point in the fact that I need to come to terms as to whether I'm an alcoholic or not and if I need divine help to get and stay sober... or at very least to stay sober.

I see nothing wrong with organized religion... if used properly. A lot of folks in A.A. seem to have had a hellfire and brimstone God shoved down their throat. I did not. But regardless of how wonderful a person's religious upbringing, if they're alcoholic now, how good could that religion be doing with regards to the booze?

Can a person who is accustomed to some religious path do A.A. and come later to incorporate that discipline into their life as well? Can someone who was never too strong in religion come to incorporating some religion of their choice whilst also staying plugged into A.A.?

Can a person who walked away from religion long ago but found sobriety in A.A. find a way to just keep their trap shut as to suggesting others to do likewise so as to solicit some form of approval or whatever it is they do?

It just seems to me that many bleeding deacons who go to meetings feel the need to paint a rosy path for the newcomer so as to not let any mention of God scare the new man off.

Back in the days of our cofounders, did the folks who were agnostic/atheist generally stay that way? Or did many come to believe in some form of God that may be associated with some religion? I know many will argue that A.A. was generally based on Christianity. I don't buy it. I also hear the same garbage about the forming of the US of A. To me, our great nation was formed on Spiritual Principles, not religious dogma. But, this is something we can argue till the cows come home. I argue that our nation is spiritual rather than religious because we generally have the freedom to worship how and if... without giving up our rights and freedoms. Not so in many parts of the world during the forming of this new nation. Same goes with A.A. in my experience. I am not forced into believing and practicing the dogma of any particular religion.

The books itself tells us in very specific detail what we are called to do... be quick to point out where religious people are right... make use of what they offer. I am called upon to be open minded. As my mentor's mentor says, "I used to think open minded meant adding to the vast knowledge that I already possess. What I found out was that I'm called to start anew with the whole deal... and to choose... all the way down the line." That's a paraphrase, but I think I got the jist of it.

Yesterday in this same meeting, we had a group of gals graduating from the local treatment center, so the chairperson yesterday chose to cater to these ladies and let them share where they are now and what they plan on doing going forward. Just about every gal talked about how they used to hate other girls and only hung out with guys and how they have come to open up to their female companions a bit. It's a good thing I didn't get called on to share because I was going to explain to them my opinion about their tendencies. Many of these women hate other women because they see them as competition. They see men as providers. It's about that simple.

I would have gone on to talk about how it is my opinion that these gals... whether they go on to get sober/clean or not, do A.A./(fill-in-the-blank A.) or not... they at very least try to get back on their own two feet and put themselves in a position to provide for themselves. This would entail, get a job, pay the bills, don't cheat, steal, fight, break the law in general, etc. Then maybe, if they can face up to the fact that the best deal they got is to look at those steps. Am I alky? Do I need God's grace and protection and care? Am I willing to let God be my Provider? Will God do for me what I cannot do for myself? Will God provide for me so long as I do not place others or myself in the wrong position?

It's got to be a bit tougher for women though. See, they will not hear that shit that I would spew in a meeting... not ever... especially the cute ones. Ever notice how women, specifically the cute ones, get treated different? It's as if nobody has the balls to give it to them straight. This particual meeting I have been going to has no recovered women in it. The "elder statesmen" don't want to see the new man/woman get run off with God talk or ... perhaps step-talk.

But unfortunately, I think people get what they want. They want the easier softer way. I don't think they spend enough time discussing what an alcoholic is and if they are one or not and whether they have really come to terms with whether they are going to decide into this spiritual path or not. Until all this stuff is ironed out, the God talk is just talk, imo.

Newbie describes how awful her A.A. experience has been for her so far

2011-12-09T00:24:00.007-07:00

So I went to the nooner by the courthouse yesterday and the one the day before.

This gal describes how things are going after about two months of sobriety now.

She's coming up on the holidays and is bummed she don't have much money. She knows she'll receive gifts from her folks and she is remorseful that she cannot afford to buy them gifts... again.

So her mom tells her, "This is the best gift you can give me." Just calling her sober is something new. She described how her mom used to call the hospitals and morgues trying to locate her.

It was sort of a touching moment... guess you sort of had to be there.

The topic of the meeting seemed to be reliance on God vs reliance on self and... something to do with pulling off the mask and being our true self in sobriety... as opposed to putting on our A.A. cloak and saying "I'm fine."

I liken the latter topic to locating our ego... drunk or sober. A lot of folks come from the place that they are free of this mask "now that I'm sober" and that's that. For me, it's an ongoing battle. Without diligent step work, the ego rebuilds and manifests itself eventually. I eventually go back to running the show, arranging the lights and the stage characters in my own way. In other words, I eventually play God in some way or... there's some area of my life I've not turned loose of or I'm not fully aware of where I'm off the beam.

For example, with my coworker, I felt bullied at times and taken advantage of. When I fought back, it was a battle between his character and mine. I wanted to shed light on each and everything he did wrong, whether I was involved or not. I wanted assurance and approval of me being in the right and him being wrong. With that, I'd gone to far. What was this lack of faith based in? Fear. Lack of control. Lack of power. I got away from doing my work for God rather than not doing it for him.

What Happened?

2011-12-03T13:13:00.007-07:00

Cool Picture of F-18

Ok, enough frivolity about death and dying. Some more sober (?) shit here. This was sent to me a week or so ago. Don't know the pedigree, who wrote it or when, but it makes for some interesting reading. Many points the author makes have been made on this blog.

I was talking to my old (80 years) friend Millie the other night, and she was reflecting on the disappearance of 12-step calls. (Anyone gone out in the middle of the night to make a call with a pint of vodka in their pocket recently? ) I wonder if this observation isn't tied into society becoming more familiar with the concepts of Detox or Rehab being the miracle answer, and viewing AA as sort of an after care or something. "Got a drinking problem? Go to a Rehab facility" as opposed to go to an AA meeting.

Another thought that comes to mind is the idea that nobody, including AA in my opinion, screens folks anymore to see if they really ARE alcoholics. I look around some of the meetings I go to and listen to the shit that's spouted sometimes. I'm convinced that some people have no business being at a meeting as they're not alcoholics. Maybe insecure wanabees who drink too much and are looking for a little sympathy or something, but not alcoholics.

And I've got mixed feelings about the role of the newcomer. I've heard some wise words out of the mouths of babes and drivel from the people who've been around for "a few 24 hours".

But anyway, this will be on the test, so study it well. I threw in the cool picture 'cause it's a guy thing.

What Happened?

That question is being asked by a lot of alcoholics lately. What happened to our high success rate? 30 & 40 years ago, we were keeping 75% or more of the alcoholics who came to us for help. Today, we aren’t keeping even 5%. What happened? What happened to that wonderful A.A. Group that was around for 20, 30 or 40 years? There used to be 50, 75, 100 or more at every meeting. It is now a matter of history; gone! More and more groups are folding every day. What happened? We hear a lot of ideas, opinions and excuses as to what happened but things are not improving. They continue to get worse. What is happening?
Bill W. wrote,

“In the years ahead A.A. will, of course, make mistakes. Experience has taught us that we need have no fear of doing this, providing that we always remain willing to admit our faults and to correct them promptly. Our growth as individuals has depended upon this healthy process of trial and error. So will our growth as a fellowship.

Let us always remember that any society of men and women that cannot freely correct its own faults must surely fall into decay if not into collapse. Such is the universal penalty for the failure to go on growing. Just as each A.A. must continue to take his moral inventory and act upon it, so must our whole Society if we are to survive and if we are to serve usefully and well.” (A.A. Comes of Age, pg 231)
With so very few finding lasting sobriety and the continued demise of AA groups, it is obvious that we have not remained willing to admit our faults and to correct them promptly.

Seems that the Delegate of the Northeast Ohio Area, Bob Bacon, identified our mistakes and our faults when he talked to a group of AA’s in 1976. He said, in essence, we are no longer showing the newcomer that we have a solution for alcoholism. We are not telling them about the Big Book and how very important that Book is to our long term sobriety. We are not telling them about our Traditions and how very important they are to the individual groups and to Alcoholics Anonymous as a whole. Rather, we are using our meeting time for drunkalogs, a discussion of our problems, ideas and opinions or “my day” or “my way”.

Reflecting on what Bob Bacon had to say, it would appear that we have permitted newcomers to convince the old-timers that they had a better idea. They had just spent 30 or more days in a treatment facility where they had been impressed with the need to talk about their problems in Group Therapy Sessions. They had been told that it didn’t make any difference what their real problem was, A.A. had the “best program”. They were told that they should go to an A.A. meeting every day for the 1st 90 days out of treatment. They were told that they shouldn’t make any major decisions for the 1st year of their sobriety. And what they were told goes on and on, most of which are contrary to the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous!
Apparently, what they were told sounded pretty good to the A.A.
members who were here when the TC clients started showing up at our meetings. And a lot of the A.A. members liked the idea of the treatment centers because the centers provided a place where they could drop off a serious drinker. That eliminated some of the inconveniences we had been plagued with before; having to pour orange juice and honey or a shot of booze down a vibrating alky to help them “de-tox”.

When A.A. was very successful, the folks who did the talking in meetings were recovered alcoholics. The suffering and untreated alcoholics listened. After hearing what it takes to recover, the newcomer was faced with a decision; “Are you going to take the Steps and recover or are you going to get back out there and finish the job?” If they said they “were willing to go to any length,” they were given a sponsor, a Big Book and began the process of recovery by taking the Steps and experiencing the Promises that result from that course of action. This process kept the newcomer involved in working with others and continued the growth of our Fellowship. Our growth rate was approximately 7% and the number of sober members of Alcoholics Anonymous doubled every 10 years.

With the advent of the rapid growth of the Treatment Industry, the acceptance of our success with alcoholics by the judicial system and endorsement of physicians, psychiatrist, psychologist, etc. all kinds of people were pouring into A.A. at a rate greater than we had ever dreamed possible. Almost without realizing what was happening, our meetings began changing from ones that focused on recovery from alcoholism to “discussion or participation” types of meetings that invited everyone to talk about whatever was on their mind. The meetings evolved from a program of spiritual development to the group therapy type of meeting where we heard more and more about “our problems” and less and less about the Program of Recovery by the Big Book and the preservation of our Fellowship by adhering to our Traditions.

What has been the result of all this? Well, never have we had so many coming to us for help. But never have we had such a slow growth rate which has now started to decline. For the first time in our history, Alcoholics Anonymous is losing members faster than they are coming in and our success rate is unbelievably low. (Statistics from the Inter-Group Office of some major cities indicate less than 5% of those expressing a desire to stop drinking are successful for more than 5 years; a far cry from the 75% reported by Bill W. in the Forward to Second Edition). The change in the content of our meetings is proving to be death-traps for the newcomer and in turn, death-traps for the groups that depend on the “discussion or participation” type meetings.

Why is this? The answer is very simple. When meetings were opened so that untreated alcoholics & non-alcoholics were given the opportunity to express their ideas, their opinions, air their problems and tell how they were told to do it where they came from, the confused newcomer became more confused with the diversity of information that was being presented. More and more they were encouraged to “just go to meetings and don’t drink” or worse yet, “go to 90 meetings in 90 days”. The newcomer no longer was told to take the Steps or get back out there and finish the job. In fact, they are often told, “Don’t rush into taking the Steps. Take your time.” The alcoholics who participated in the writing of the Big Book didn’t wait. They took the Steps in the first few days following their last drink.

Thank God, people in our Fellowship, like Joe & Charlie, Wally, etc., recognized the problem and started doing something about it. They placed the focus back on the Big Book. There have always been a few groups that would not yield to the group therapy trend. They stayed firm to their commitment to try to carry a single message to the suffering alcoholic. That is to tell the newcomer that “we have had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps and if you want to recover, we will see that you have a sponsor who has recovered and will lead you along the path the 1st 100 laid down for us”. Recovered alcoholics have begun founding groups that have a single purpose and inform the newcomer that until they have taken the steps and recovered, they will not be permitted to say anything in meetings. They will listen to recovered alcoholics, they will take the Steps, they will recover and then they will try to pass their experience and knowledge on to the ones who are seeking the kind of help we provide in Alcoholics Anonymous. As this movement spreads worldwide as it is beginning to, Alcoholics Anonymous will again be very successful in doing the one thing God intended for us to do and that is to help the suffering alcoholic recover, if he has decided he wants what we have and is willing to go to any length to recover, to take and apply our Twelve Steps to our lives and protect our Fellowship by honoring our Twelve Traditions.
There is a tendency to want to place the blame for our predicament on the treatment industry and professionals. They do what they do and it has nothing to do with what we in Alcoholics Anonymous do. That is their business. That is not where to place the blame and also is in violation of our Tenth Tradition. The real problem is that the members of Alcoholics Anonymous, who were here when the “clients” began coming to our Fellowship did not help the “clients” understand that our Program had been firmly established since April 1939. And that the guidelines for the preservation and growth of our Fellowship were adopted in 1950. That they must get rid of their new “old ideas” and start practicing the Twelve Step Program of Alcoholics Anonymous as it was given to us. That until they had taken the Steps and recovered, they had nothing to say that needed to be heard except by their sponsor.
But that didn’t happen. To the contrary, the old timers failed in their responsibility to the newcomer to remind them of a vital truth, “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.” We have permitted untreated alcoholics and non-alcoholics to sit in our meetings and lay out their problems, ideas and opinions. We have gone from, “Rarely have we seen a person fail” to “Rarely do we see a person recover.”
So there we are. We have had 30 years of unbelievable success by following the directions in the Big Book. We have had 30 years of disappointing failure by wanting to hear from everyone. We now have something to compare.
We now know what the problem is and we know what the solution is. Unfortunately, we have not been prompt to correct the faults and mistakes which have been created by what would appear to be large doses of apathy and complacency. The problem we are trying to live with is needlessly killing alcoholics.
The Solution? For those who are willing to go to any length, recovery is promised. They will find a Power greater than themselves by closely following the clear-cut directions found only in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Do you want to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution?
Simple, but not easy... a price has to be paid.

Death

2011-11-29T22:39:00.006-07:00

So what do y'all think about snuffing?

I swear that all the secular folks take all the fun out of even fucking kicking the old bucket.

I try to converse with rational folks about the holidays on my states forum and damned if some radical atheistic fucks don't come along and shit on the thread about how their mother died on Thanksgiving Day or Christmas so... they want to shout "God is evil" out one side of their mouths and shout "Materialistic lunacy" out the other side.

So what do you think about death? Is it so bad? If my loved one dies is it to me to say to the universe, "How fucking dare you take this poor cancer suffering soul away from ME!"?

My cousin died on November 20th of kidney cancer and do you think she or her family shy'd away from Thanksgiving
? No. They had it one week early and considered it a blessing. I think that's graceful.

So... tell me of a spiritual discipline that doesn't start off with the acknowledgement that we are going to die.

Knowing I'm going to die is a great starting point and building block to living.

What say you?

Happy Thanksgiving!

2011-11-24T17:20:00.002-07:00

Hope all of you with a pulse had a nice one and those who traveled get home safe.

I'm not an alcoholic, I'm a drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings.

2011-11-20T14:08:00.001-07:00

You know the shirt

Thank you to Rob for this tragic irony. Do I find this funny? Not the act... but the baboon-faced fuck with the stupid look on his face is sort of funny. I wonder if he doesn't have a resentment on his shirt. I doubt he'll be sportin' that baby during his hearing.

We've all seen the shirt or the bumper sticker. Funny, until someone gets hurt. He's lucky he didn't kill that cop. He's a fuck-up... imo. He may or may not be alky. In any case, that's his problem.

As I commented on this elsewhere, "Maybe this time the guy will spend less time mocking folks who are committing to a better way of life and more time finding a way to get his own shit together."

The next shirt he's gonna need is a D.A.M.M. shirt, Drunks Against MADD Mothers. Then there's always the I'm With Stupid ^ shirt. Anyone remember those?

Thank God A.A. is notorious, cultish, and religious enough to not have to deal with some of these fuck-ups... imo of course.

Confused in Virginia

2011-11-14T10:49:00.002-07:00

Dear Mr. Manners,

I am an alcoholic who's becoming a little (more) confused. In my area several new meetings have been started, most likely because of resentments and egos. The reasoning in starting a new meeting I understand. The fact that there are already over 300 meetings listed in our directory does cause me to wonder about the need for another step study meeting, however.

Here's my dilemma. At every meeting I attend there's always someone announcing these new meetings and inevitably ending the announcement with a plea for everyone to attend the new meeting "because it really needs your support". This tells me that the new meetings are hurting for attendees and my support is desperately required.

So, should I abandon the Wednesday meeting I've been attending for years to support the new one? How about the Monday meeting? You see my confusion here. People are starting unneeded new meetings, no one is showing up, and then it's suddenly the fault of the rest of AA because we're not "supporting" them.

Or perhaps these fucking people are just morons? If resentments arise in a home group (and they do), why not just switch to another home group? Instead, the "I'm not drinking better than you're not drinking" attitude comes out and a new, unnecessary meeting is started. And no one attends. And pleas are made for support. I feel like I'm being asked to back a local baseball team.

This problem would go away if the ones who started the new meeting realized the errors of their ways, accepted the fact that nobody's gonna come to their new meeting and just let the fucking thing die. But they don't. So we end up with a hundred suck-ass AA meetings controlled by ego maniacs where, if they're lucky, 8 or 9 people attend.

My question, Mr. Manners, is this: Should I wallow in guilt because I don't support these new meetings. I know I'd feel some guilt if I abandon my home group to offer this support. I'm fucked regardless. Or maybe every time I chair a meeting the topic could be idiots who plead for support for suck-ass meetings? That would liven up the discussion....Maybe I could refer to that tradition the deals with autonomy "except when affecting other AA groups". That might work, too.

So please, Mr. Manners, help out a confused alcoholic here. You'll be saving a few lives in doing so.

Smarter Than The Average Monkey

2011-11-08T15:10:00.006-07:00

With Dog's monkey video up. (great btw) I figure some of the lurking atheist types would get to thinking that we humans are just high tech monkeys.

But we do monkeys one better. We not only drink, get drunk and fall down; we sing about it too. In 7/4 time no less.

Just another proof that there IS a God.

So our troubles are basically of OUR own making?

2011-11-07T18:35:00.000-07:00

Have you ever come out of a 5th Step and feel like your skull was cracked open?

This was a rough one. I was so packed deep into this garbage that I had painted myself into a victim's corner.

Not only had I refused to see my part, but I refused to treat any of this spiritually.

This one really exposed my ego. No wonder I've been physically sick lately. I've been spiritually sick too... though I usually don't think so.

So... is the idea of a line between the alcoholic and the normie a myth?

2011-11-03T05:30:00.000-06:00

I'm that one... that throws tables, steals others' drinks... kicks ass, takes the girl, and staggers away.

Who/What is/was Stinkin'-Thinkin' at Wordpress?

2011-10-28T09:24:00.015-06:00

MA

Orange

A fellow poster/author here asked what is this ST we refer to from time to time. I answered him in a comment and decided to make that two-part comment the current post topic. So... my current view of our friends across cyberworld...

They are technically the reason for our existence here on this blog... our reason for our banning from Sober Recovery when you get right down to it. I don't blame anybody for that fact... it just is. Add: Z and one unmentionable girl-troll were the ones who baited us and brought about my banning and some soon followed me as a seeming stance on principle and some have joined me here and have been made authors and part/administrators of the blog. But... they have their antonomy and have since recovered from the purpose of the blog and have no axe to grind. But they are always welcome here as they know. I'm quite sure those minions from ST and perhaps Orange Papers and elsewhere infiltrate http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism on a regular basis and flood the topics with anti/XA rhetoric with a cycling bunch of new users/trolls and stir the pot from what's left of that sickened and soft-petered recovery site... no offense, just a notion I have. No proof of this, just a notion.

It started off with me having some stuff brought to my attention. We'd post away at sober recovery and some snarky smart-asses were mocking our posts and bashing our dedication to spreading the A.A. message via the program outlined in the A.A. book... and answering questions from a few that dare attempt to follow that simple path.

I came onto this site called "DonewithAA" at wordpress which became "Stinkin'-Thinkin' dot com and the rest is history. There was MA, aka Mark... an Adolph Hitler mustache superimposed onto our beloved Bill W-wearin' author, ftg aka friendthegirl aka Ilse, and of course Speedy.

As we responded to the at times welcomed notoriety, it was soon apparent what they were up to; bait us into anger, they'd then sit back and watch us retaliate in anger, then they'd point their bony fingers at us as being unserene crazy mean-spirited assholes. As we whipped their asses at debate at every turn, they tried to "project" their own weak techniques and accusations at us... with words like "gas lighting", "red-herring", bait-and-switch, ad hominems, strawman arguments... etc... just a bunch of stuff they've burped up from Agent Orange via Orange Papers.

Then... as time went on, they amassed a bunch of anti/XAers ("anti AAers" from the start and "ex-AAers"... experts who been there done that and are now more qualified and more sober than you and I and cannot hear any arguments for or against from you or me because they are just frankly better than us... thus my abbreviation "anti/XAer") who were downright nasty to me, RobB, Jim, TonyJ, Karl aka Cuda aka PinkCuda... and they were somewhat cordial to Joe I think.

But the bottom line is they have been honking on and on about being anti-censorship, welcoming of debate, and open-minded to looking at both sides. But what we’ve found quickly is that they hate anything pro-A.A., hate actual debate, refuse to accept any evidence against their and Agent Orange half-truths and outright lies, etc. They built a site around it and built a community of folks who frankly get off on trying to put us and bring us down. They search tirelessly for ways of spinning anything recovery or A.A. related to make the A.A. fellowship to look like a bunch of tyrant white male sex abusing raping 13th stepping sick old bastards who want to control and abuse its poor poor victims who get sent to A.A. or come searching A.A. for a gleam of hope.

They are endlessly finding ways to reiterate and add to claims from Agent Orange about what a sex-crazed belladonna induced lunatic that Bill W was and they have an equally vicious character assassination for Dr Bob and anything A.A. We all know these guys were never saints. They even said so.

They go on tirelessly to reiterate Agent Oranges’ claims that A.A. has a success rate of 5% or less and that doing nothing will lead to the same spontaneous remission as the aforementioned program. They spout the good works of many other mostly secular recovery organizations but spend no time actually directing people to how and where these programs are doing better works within the annuls of recovery… because frankly they are too busy bashing A.A. and bullying its inhabitants.

Do I sound dramatic? Well… being the site is temporarily gone… I have not much proof. Some of my peeps will shed light on the accuracy of my findings/experiences with these folks.

I’ve had an on again/off again/on again positive relationship with FTG and MA. I do not claim to be their equal in writing techniques, dedication to their cause, or their ability to grow a huge following. They whipped our asses in that regard. But we hang in here and my/our main purpose for this here blog is to have a place to hang your hat and speak your piece. I don’t claim to keep this place free of censorship. If you come in here and call me names and get nasty with me, I’m gonna censor that. Everyone who knows me knows that I can get nasty, mean, and flat out rude to those who cross me. I’d like to think I’ve been baited and falsely judged from time to time, but whatever. Don’t recall… water under the bridge, right? If you threaten me, I’ll answer the threat back. If you threaten one of my colleagues in recovery… or MA and ftg on here, I’ll send you away as best I can. There’s no room for that shit.

I feel bad for the crap MA and ftg got into with an irate and perhaps dangerous poster. I don’t know both sides of the story, but this guy seemed to find an actual address for ftg and perhaps threatened her physically. She and those at ST could have probably fought this guy right into incarceration if they/she wanted to. This was not the cause for the site to temporarily/permanently shut down. MA and ftg were looking to take a break and head in other directions for now. It’s just coincidence. But I feel for them and wish them well.

We actually have a common goal. We want to help see that drunks and addicts and victims of those afflictions get the help they need. We see the path to that end differently. To the other “minions” of the site who not only see our path as wrong but also leave no room for our worthiness, I say, “Good day.” But something strange happened between some of those minions and I… they started to see I wasn’t such a bad guy after all. They just see me as mislead and think I’m too smart to be snowed-over by the A.A. program. To them I say, “Come see the A.A. that I know. As far as MOTR stuff and all the bad A.A. that’s out there… and the knuckleheads that make such a mess out of trying to control people and the poor folks who truly are in need of and want help and willing to do something about it… I understand that most of A.A. is a huge mess. But even still, it works for some and provides something for others that we cannot explain.

A.A. should be totally voluntary and the courts/judicial system, healthcare industry etc., should let some of us explain what A.A. can do and cannot do and how it is to be 100% voluntary and how it’s not just a place to dump criminals to be punished and a place where children can be babysat and raised. A.A. is for drunks who need and want the help that A.A. has to offer.

It works pretty good for me and that’s that.

http://goodbye.stinkin-thinkin.com

Goodbye ST. Go well.
An aside for Gunthar:

That's right. Stanton is a former board member of MM and a former MM apologist. Sorry for my previous claims. Apologist and A.A. accuser. So he no longer actively supports Audrey, but wants to make it clear that it's probably A.A.s fault for her drinking too much due to the dangers of... abstinence? Does abstinence lead to binging or something? I thought binging was for underage drinkers. I'm confused.

One more thing about abstinence... as some anti/XAers are claiming abstinence out there... but not all. It's ok to be abstinent... so long as you don't do it in A.A. To do so in A.A. is cultish and harmful to others... aka causes more harm than good. Oh, and don't preach now. It's no fair to preach at anybody these days!

In Stanton's defense, I understand what he's saying; the woman who drove drunk and killed people is at fault, not A.A. and not MM and not the car and not the wine. But... he believes that had she been able to voice her situation freely and without guilt... that she was drinking to excess and that she needed help... like perhaps a ride somewhere so she didn't drive drunk... the harm would have been removed. As O'Reilly says, the sober AAer would not have driven drunk anyway.

What's the upshot of the story for me? The founder of MM drove drunk and killed two people. So... is she special? The anti/XAer and secular type folks want to bewail the institution of A.A. and its claim to spirituality and any talk of "disease". But they're willing to agree that folks like Audrey might be different that others. For some moderation works and for some, not so. Well you can't have it both ways. Either there are physical ramifications or there are not. You want us to believe that it's all culture and behavior. I think it's more complicated than that... as in perhaps physical as well as something perhaps physiological. Pretty much what A.A. has been saying since 1935.

The Four Phases of Spiritual Philosophy

2011-10-25T09:52:00.002-06:00

I still recall the day, the brightness of the weather, even the crisp air out on the soapstone steps of Williamson Road Methodist church, the home of my AA home group. The ecstasy of “liberation” that flowed through my excited consciousness, the sense that I was about to walk into an all new chapter in my sobriety, in my life. The unfamiliar yet firm conviction that I was done with AA cultism was thorough and irreversible. It would be, in effect, my second spiritual awakening in four years.

Within the economy of spiritual living one can extrapolate four distinct phases that individuals may be passing through as they progress onward, or not. The remarkable fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous provides the diversity of these phases without interruption or standardization from an ecclesiastical board of creedal dictators. Most of us need a heavy dose of structure upon entering this new way of life, we need the rigid dictates of a tuff sponsor, with specific instructions and the assignment of a simple routine job within the fellowship. But if we are to gain true independence of the spirit we cannot stand still, not if we really want to get well.

The first phase is that of conformity, we surrender to tradition and authority. We had little to no confidence in ourselves so we could readily adapt to direction from anyone. This is a phase in spiritual development where we could be swept up by damn near any movement. Fortunately for us it was God centered AA.
The next phase is where we leave well enough alone; our potential development has become arrested on a level where we do just enough to get by. We stagnate in a cycle of complacency.

Then there’s logical intellectuality, AA becomes legalistic, the Big Book is our scripture and anything beyond that is an annoyance to our comfortable perch of righteous finality. We delude ourselves into avoiding such questions as those of the fourth step inventory in the Twelve and Twelve by claiming that such a book is heretical to the original Law. No longer is God a living presence in our group conscience rather he has been replaced by a sort of spiritual science.

The fourth phase attains freedom from conventional and traditional handicaps; this is where one dares to think, act, live fearlessly, truthfully, honestly and loyally. This place is the second mile of spiritual living, a place of tremendous possibility, mind expanding experience and truly dynamic living. We are still firmly grounded in unity but not bound by theological uniformity. Here we can enjoy the liberty of free thinking without becoming “freethinkers”. We are no longer encumbered by non existent creedal pressures which the “third phase’s” dream up and attempt to impose.

“Yea will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”

Colter

Blackouts and being "struck drunk"

2011-10-10T20:55:00.005-06:00

Danny, one of our fellow "recovered" alcoholics in the trenches, posted this in a study session I'm subscribed to. It brings up a very interesting couple of points with regards to qualifying.

Note: Have you had similar experiences; blackouts? Non-alcoholics and alcoholics BOTH experience this amnesiatic effect when too much alcohol is ingested.

Many non-alcoholics, who have no problems with alcohol, can recall blacking out when they had abused alcohol in the past. ("Don't remember a thing".)

That is because eventually everyone "blacks out" when over imbibing. Even non-alcoholics. It's a human physical fact.

Backouts are NOT symptomatic of alcoholism even though it is symptomatic of an alcohol abuse event. Some non-alcoholics blackout every time they drink! Drinking "too much" is not a qualification either. Sometimes we hear an alcoholic attempting to qualify as "One of us" with a history of "Blackouts". This means nothing to a real alcoholic because everyone blacks out when they drink too much – not just alcoholics. It is just incidental to this particular story, just as incidental as the whiskey/milk concoction in Jim's the salesman's story before it.

So, I've been wondering where my blackout experiences fit in here.

I think Danny just may have found my loophole for me. I didn't black out each and every time I drank, but I damn well blacked out most of my drunks and about every third drunk throughout my life, I damn well could have been diagnosed with "accute alcohol poisoning syndrome" or some such thing. But I don't really remember recall being "struck drunk".

No, I was that guy who started drinking again with the "vaguely sensed" that this might not be too smart, but here goes anyway.

So, maybe I'm not a real alcoholic after all.

And after all these years.

Wouldn't this be embarassing? The waste of time and the ranting.

I'd like to learn more about the drinker who blacks out everytime they drink, but they aren't alcoholic. How does this work for them? They have the physical craving but not the mental obsession? How do you know that they do infact not have the obsession? I'd like to see some links to case histories on that one... maybe find more about this black-outer the next day. If they don't have the mental obsession, then surely they can make their mind up to not drink any or it would result in the blackout. How do they behave during the blackout and through the drunk... through the night? Do they continue to drink while in the blackout? I have experience with this. I've been told I was cut off at the bar, but not kicked out yet. So my friends tell me I just make friends two tables over and drink these new stangers' drinks for them. I srsly don't know how or why I did that, but I did... as witnessed by two of my last co-workers.

Now, so since the dangerous amounts I drank doesn't qualify me, how do we explain the stipulation of physical craving in my case? Does my experience demonstrate that, or not?

I know that something doesn't pan out for me when I drink booze. I guess the "my off button is broken" is no longer a valid qualifier and I should quit using that?

I've heard some of your stories and have tried to remember what makes you a real alcoholic. Was it because you drank every day no matter what? I was not a daily drinker. Was it because you were a New York stockbroker like Bill W. and Danny S? I was not. Did you screw your secretary? I did not.

I'm getting confused here. If I'm not a real alcoholic, then that means I don't need A.A., right? That's ok. I'm not too keen on it these days anyway. I'm kind of burned on the steps too... but I'm willing finish up what I started. I don't sponsor people, so no worries there.

I still have the right to stay sober and seek spirituality, so I guess I see no need to shy away from the blog.

We'll just not see eye-to eye on certain key issues so... no big change there either. The biggest thing is that I would have to stop going to closed A.A. meetings for sure because I'll have to say, "My name is Patrick, and I just found out that I'm not really a real full-blown alcoholic, but I want to continue with my sobriety and seek God", akward. I don't think that would go over in our MOTR open A.A. meetings either. Maybe I need to shorten it up. My name is Patrick and I'm just here to listen. My name is Patrick and I'm a supporter. No. My name is Patrick and I'm in recovery. My name is Patrick and I'm... Any ideas?

Oh, and I just want to say one last time before I go... Foo Y'all!

Spiritual

2011-10-06T22:09:00.009-06:00

Yup. This topic... again.

It was brought up by my good friend at the Thursday night meeting tonight. I was called on to share... because my bro always calls on me... and I was brilliant... in my mind. Srsly though... I had something to say. Two... make that three folks thanked me for my share after the meeting.

I, as well as several others, complimented the chair person for a good topic and a good meeting.

But... someone chastised my share. Someone who is really a good fairly long-time spiritual friend and fellow warrior on the path. She dissed my mention of my cyber-life and quest to find truth and do battle with fellow skeptics, atheists, agnostics, anti/XAers in general... on the internet. She had a spiel about how she hates computers to begin with and how ridiculous it is to engage in some argument with a skeptic over the internet when there's a whole world right in front of you to deal with.

She certainly has her point, I'm sure. It's also so not like her to cut someone else down... in any way. It's so like her husband to do that though. I like them both. I really do. They are way better than me in every way. They are sober 20 + years, have two beautiful children... etc. It is their porch where everybody goes to do fellowship, steps, etc. They are the organizers of the best A.A. meeting in town, and they have taken on ICYPAA and turned it into one of the best step-doing chapters in maybe the whole country. Doubt me on that? Come check out their Friday or Sunday meeting and see for yourself.

But, laying that aside, I gave them a peek at what I've found in cyber-world. The real truth and reality of what we in A.A. are judged as... from all sides. We get to see what our enemies think about us. Good bad of indifferent, I'm told we owe a debt of gratitude to our detractors. This is so not seen down on the group level... street level. At least, I have yet to see it. What this is about is the fact that there are a huge faction of folks that just flat out refuse to meet us even half way on what it means to consider the spiritual approach.

There isn't a chapter in the A.A. book about the atheist who says, "Well fuck you, your A.A. [g]od™, your steps, your book, your founders, and your meeting." Our current retort to that is obviously, "Well fuck you back. Why don't you just go away and stay away from here?"

Face to face, down on the street, I have yet to meet the anti/XAer with the balls to come up and say, "Fuck you A.A. people. You are wrong. God isn't the only way. God isn't the way period. Your [g]od™ and your religion and your cult is destroying the lives of others, children, women, and non-white old conservative Hitler-loving men across the planet.

But, let's not get dramatic here. You know what I'm saying? There's a world out there who seems to want to meet us half way, knowingly or not, on what self-indulgent middle-of-the-road bullshit there is out there.

To folks who come into A.A., get the spiritual gift of surrender, courage, acceptance, decision, and harmonious action, you get a pass on this topic. This has nothing to do with you whatsoever. I'm talking about the person who's been sober in A.A. 8+ years, is burned out and confused about whether they're even alky or not, is confused about their ability to obtain and hold power, is seemingly chronically depressed... and just seems to be missing something. Either that or they're just playing small and in fear of stepping up to the plate. I think they lack faith and/or realization of what it really means to be an alky. But who knows?

I'm talking about the person who maybe a true atheist or they may be just so clogged up with and sick of having another's form of God so shoved down their throat... that they cannot nor will not submit. There are also abuses done upon others' from those who do spiritual manipulation to try to control and exploit another. If you are spending your time trying to constantly trim another or corral them into your way of thinking... are you maybe the predator here? I agree with the anti/XAers that the whole dynamic of "sponsor" makes this very possible and perhaps prevalent.

Part of my share was the notion that there are skeptics out there... and that I'm not one, but I should at least acknowledge them and respect them... and to at least appeal them to skepticize this... maybe "Under God's protection and care with complete abandon" is real. What if it was true? Would I be willing to go for that deal?

If not, I say choose God is nothing and go from there. Do God is nothing and see what comes of it. The battle should be over. You have nothing to fight, no one to oppose. But what about the orthodox steppers and internet-skeptics? They'll surely be there to point their fingers at you when you fail and get drunk and say, "See, maybe you'll see the light now. Come in, get a sponsor, put the cotton in your mouth, take on a coffee commitment... yada yada yada."

They can, in essence, run you away from A.A. Gee, I wonder how many folks have been chased away from Jesus due to born-again Southern Baptist nominal-Christian zealots and Jesus Freaks.

Off Topic, The Chrysler is ready to roll

2011-10-02T13:51:00.002-06:00

A rough video, as it's a video of a video... but this is my 383 with the new hardened-seat valves.

Our Government At Work

2011-09-22T21:03:00.005-06:00

I ran across this statement in a Time Magazine article recently:

Research shows that the majority of people who receive a diagnosis of addiction or alcoholism actually recover without treatment or participation in self-help groups. In a 2005 study involving 4,442 people with alcoholism who were not in treatment, researchers found that one year after their initial interview, a full 75% had improved to the point where they were no longer considered to be actively alcoholic.

And being the inquisitive type of guy that I am, I read the study, brought to us by our friends, the PhD's at NIAA. Here it is, in a nutshell:

Recovery from DSM-IV alcohol dependence: United States, 2001-2002.

Dawson DA, Grant BF, Stinson FS, Chou PS, Huang B, Ruan WJ.

Source

Laboratory of Epidemiology and Biometry, Division of Intramural Clinical and Biological Research, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD, USA. ddawson@mail.nih.gov

Abstract

AIMS:

To investigate the prevalence and correlates of recovery from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual version IV (DSM-IV) alcohol dependence by examining the past-year status of individuals who met the criteria for prior-to-past-year (PPY) dependence.

DESIGN:

Cross-sectional, retrospective survey of a nationally representative sample of US adults 18 years of age and over (first wave of a planned longitudinal survey).

METHODS:

This analysis is based on data from the 2001-02 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC), in which data were collected in personal interviews conducted with one randomly selected adult in each sample household. A subset of the NESARC sample (total n = 43 093), consisting of 4422 US adults 18 years of age and over classified with PPY DSM-IV alcohol dependence, were evaluated with respect to their past-year recovery status: past-year dependence, partial remission, full remission, asymptomatic risk drinking, abstinent recovery (AR) and non-abstinent recovery (NR). Correlates of past-year status were examined in bivariate analyses and using multivariate logistic regression models.

FINDINGS:

Of people classified with PPY alcohol dependence, 25.0% were still classified as dependent in the past year; 27.3% were classified as being in partial remission; 11.8% were asymptomatic risk drinkers who demonstrated a pattern of drinking that put them at risk of relapse; 17.7% were low-risk drinkers; and 18.2% were abstainers. Only 25.5% of people with PPY dependence ever received treatment. Being married was associated positively with the odds of both AR and NR, and ethanol intake was negatively associated with both. Severity of dependence increased the odds of AR but decreased the odds of NR. The odds of AR (but not NR) increased with age and female gender but were decreased by the presence of a personality disorder. Treatment history modified the effects of college attendance/graduation, age at onset and interval since onset on the odds of recovery.

CONCLUSIONS:

There is a substantial level of recovery from alcohol dependence. Information on factors associated with recovery may be useful in targeting appropriate treatment modalities.

I'll cut through the bullshit here just give a summary. Somehow, these researchers came up with a pool of over 4,000 people who were diagnosed as alcohol dependent using DSM-IV criteria. Where they got these folks is a mystery. Treatment Center patients, therapy patients, wet house occupants? Who knows.

But I'll leave that question open as they ain't tellin'.

I have two big problems with the study. First is the use of DSM-IV criteria to determine alcohol dependence. Using this as a guide, I could develop a tolerance for alcohol over the years, have a desire to cut back on my drinking, and drink in spite of the fact that I give up important social activities as a result of my drinking and according to DSM-IV I'm an alcoholic!

Then to see if I've recovered from this alcoholism over a 12 month period, the folks at NIAA talked to a "randomly selected adult in each household". Wow! Now there's great source of information. Ask my co-dependent spouse or my alcoholic father how I'm doing.

But damn if they don't come up with the conclusion that 75% of the 4200 alcoholics in the study got well, or at least weren't classified as alcohol dependent after a year regardless of the treatment received during that period. In fact, only 25% received any treatment at all. All based on the word of a "randomly selected adult in each household.

I'm all for studies on the effectiveness of various treatments for alcoholism. But this is ridiculous.

Discuss.

What does spiritual mean to you?

2011-09-04T21:04:00.005-06:00

Spiritual to me simply means beyond the 5 senses.

I think folks who drank like me were spiritual seekers from the start.

The haters are astounded and offended when A.A. claims that the summoning of help from God is a must.

There are wonderful scientists, doctors, therapists, chemists, etc. out there. But even they are not immune to the need to appeal to the Divine... imo.

David R. Hawkins says this about depression in Power vs Force on page 278;

"Subtle grades of depression kill more people than all of the other diseases of mankind combined. There is no anti-depressant that will cure the depression that's spiritually based, for the malaise doesn't originate from brain dysfunction, but from an accurate response to the desecration of life. The body is the reflection of the spirit in its physical expression, and It's problems are the dramatization of the struggles of the spirit that gives life. A belief that we ascribe to "out there" has its effect in here." Everyone dies by his own hand- that's a hard clinical fact, not a moral view."

Hawkins loves A.A. So it stands to reason that he's got his haters.

I haven't gotten to the "how to understand radical atheism" section yet.

I may need to write that one myself.

Now to be fair to the garden variety atheist, Hawkins says this,

"Religions that fall below 500 may preach love, but they won't be able to practice it. And no religious system that encourages war can claim spiritual authority without the blatant hypocrisy that's made atheists of many honest men."

Ouch. That's a tough one to swallow.

_____________________________________

Add:

Rob B's therapy vid for MA;

Now, my brain chemistry vid for MA;

Any questions?

Outcomes of A.A. for Special Populations

2011-08-31T03:10:00.002-06:00

So... I was directed to this little PDF here.

I'd like to hear your views on it. It's written by Christine Timko and talks about why A.A. outcomes should be studied in special populations... such as outcomes of A.A. for women, youth, older people, racial and ethnic groups... such as for African-Americans, American Indians, Hispanics, outcomes for Disabled Groups, Cognitive impairment, individuals with Dual Substance use and psychiatric disorders...

In the reference section, there's a reference to White Bison Inc., The Red Road to Wellbriety: In the Native American Way, Colorado Springs. This may be run by our friend Don C?

In any case, I've not looked it through much yet. I'd like to check it out more and see what's good/bad about it.

It's a 30 page PDF that you can download if you'd like.

Discuss.

Another View

2011-08-29T08:00:00.002-06:00

SOMETHING WE DON'T SEE TOO MUCH OF AROUND HERE.

By Marya Hornbacher, Special to CNN

(CNN) - Kicked back with his boots on the table at the head of the smoke-dense room, the meeting's leader banged his fist and bellowed, “By the grace of this program and the blood of Jesus Christ, I’m sober today!”

I blinked.

This was not an auspicious beginning for the project of getting my vaguely atheistic, very alcoholic self off the sauce.

I wondered if perhaps I’d wandered into the wrong room. I thought maybe I’d wound up in Alcoholics Anonymous for crown-of-thorn Christians, and in the next room might find AA for lapsed Catholics, and downstairs a group for AA Hare Krishnas and one for AA Ukrainian Jews.

But a decade later, I’ve become aware that 12-step programs are home to people from every religion, denomination, sect, cult, political tilt, gender identity, sexual preference, economic strata, racial and ethnic background, believers in gun rights and abortion rights and the right to home schooling, drinkers of coffee and tea, whiskey and mouthwash, people who sleep on their sides or their stomachs or sidewalks.

Anyone who cares to sober up, in other words, can give it a shot the 12-step way. The official preamble Alcoholics Anonymous states: "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.”

And millions of people want that and find a way to do it in this program. I’m one of them. I was, not to put too fine a point on it, a raging drunk. Now I’m not.

It wasn’t magic; it was brutally hard work to get from point A to B. I do believe I’d be dead without the help of the people and the structure of the steps in AA.

But I don’t believe in God.

And this can be something of a sticking point when you’re sitting in a meeting room, desperate for almost any route out of hell, and someone cites “the blood of Jesus” as the only way to go. Or when you realize that six of AA's 12 steps explicitly refer to God, a Higher Power, or He.

But this shouldn't be a deal breaker. I’m going to make a lot of old-style AA’s cranky with this, but it’s perfectly possible to sober up, sans belief in God.

At first that wasn’t clear to me. It’s unclear to most people because AA has a reputation as a cult, a religion unto itself, a bunch of blathering self-helpers, a herd of lemmings, or morons, and it isn’t those things either. It’s a pretty straightforward series of steps, based on spiritual principles, that helps people clean up their lives in a whole lot of ways.

But if you are of an atheistic or strongly agnostic mindset, chances are you’ll walk into a meeting, see the steps hanging on the wall, and want to scream, laugh, or walk back out.

I tried another tack: I made a valiant attempt to believe. I figured a) these people were funny, kind, and not plastered; b) they believed that some kind of higher power had helped them get sober; c) they knew something I did not.

So I did research. I read every word of AA literature I could find. I read up on the history of half a dozen important religions and a wide variety of frou-frou nonsense. I earnestly discussed my lack of belief with priests, rabbis, fanatics and my father.

People told me their stories — of God, the divine, the power of love, an intelligent creator. Something that made all this. Some origin, some end.

I told them I believed in math. Chaos, I said. Infinity. That sort of thing.

They looked at me in despair.

And not infrequently, they said, “So you think you’re the biggest, most important thing in the universe?”

On the contrary. I think I am among the smallest. Cosmically speaking, I barely exist.

Like anything else, I came into being by the chance, consist mostly of water, am composed of cells that can be reduced and reduced, down to the quarks and leptons and so forth, that make up matter and force. If you broke down all matter, the atom or my body, you’d arrive at the same thing: what scientists call one strange quark, with its half-integer spin.

And I find that not only fascinating, but wondrous, awe-inspiring, and humbling.

I believe that the most important spiritual principle of AA is humility. The recognition that we are flawed, that we can and must change and that our purpose not only in sobriety but in life is to be of service to others.

I believe that I exist at random, but I do not exist alone; and that as long as my quarks cohere, my entire function on this hurtling planet is to give what I can to the other extant things.

That keeps me sober. Amen.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Marya Hornbacher.

The Editors - CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief • My Take

THE NEW ADDICTION... DRUNK POSTING!

2011-08-21T14:11:00.006-06:00

Edit.

Arguing with someone who hates A.A. is a big waste of my time.

News, Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavior Problem

2011-08-19T00:46:00.004-06:00

This fun little topic keeps poping up. Here's how it's presented at one of my message forums, City-Data.com/forum:

More specifically,

http://www.city-data.com/forum/mental-health/1359097-news-addiction-now-defined-brain-disorder.html

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Addiction is a chronic brain disorder and not simply a behavior problem involving alcohol, drugs, gambling or sex, experts contend in a new definition of addiction, one that is not solely related to problematic substance abuse.

The American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) just released this new definition of addiction after a four-year process involving more than 80 experts.

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavior Problem /New Definition of Addiction/Chronic/Disease & Substance Abuse/LiveScience

________________________________________________

It says,

Addiction is a chronic brain disorder and not simply a behavior problem involving alcohol, drugs, gambling or sex, experts contend in a new definition of addiction, one that is not solely related to problematic substance abuse.

The American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) just released this new definition of addiction after a four-year process involving more than 80 experts.

"At its core, addiction isn't just a social problem or a moral problem or a criminal problem. It's a brain problem whose behaviors manifest in all these other areas," said Dr. Michael Miller, past president of ASAM who oversaw the development of the new definition. "Many behaviors driven by addiction are real problems and sometimes criminal acts. But the disease is about brains, not drugs. It's about underlying neurology, not outward actions."

The new definition also describes addiction as a primary disease, meaning that it's not the result of other causes, such as emotional or psychiatric problems. And like cardiovascular disease and diabetes, addiction is recognized as a chronic disease; so it must be treated, managed and monitored over a person's lifetime, the researchers say.

Two decades of advancements in neuroscience convinced ASAM officials that addiction should be redefined by what's going on in the brain. For instance, research has shown that addiction affects the brain's reward circuitry, such that memories of previous experiences with food, sex, alcohol and other drugs trigger cravings and more addictive behaviors. Brain circuitry that governs impulse control and judgment is also altered in the brains of addicts, resulting in the nonsensical pursuit of "rewards," such as alcohol and other drugs.

A long-standing debate has roiled over whether addicts have a choice over their behaviors, said Dr. Raju Hajela, former president of the Canadian Society of Addiction Medicine and chair of the ASAM committee on addiction's new definition.

"The disease creates distortions in thinking, feelings and perceptions, which drive people to behave in ways that are not understandable to others around them," Hajela said in a statement. "Simply put, addiction is not a choice. Addictive behaviors are a manifestation of the disease, not a cause."

Even so, Hajela pointed out, choice does play a role in getting help.

"Because there is no pill which alone can cure addiction, choosing recovery over unhealthy behaviors is necessary," Hajela said.

This "choosing recovery" is akin to people with heart disease who may not choose the underlying genetic causes of their heart problems but do need to choose to eat healthier or begin exercising, in addition to medical or surgical interventions, the researchers said.

"So, we have to stop moralizing, blaming, controlling or smirking at the person with the disease of addiction, and start creating opportunities for individuals and families to get help and providing assistance in choosing proper treatment," Miller said.

Please discuss...

So are you still Powerless... or are you now Powerful?

2011-08-17T14:23:00.000-06:00

What's with this word Power being thrown around in A.A. discussion?

We came in as powerless, right? Well no shit. If we weren't powerless, we wouldn't have problems with booze amongst many other problems. Now save your "But alcohol is not the problem" rant for a moment or five.

We come into A.A. with that state of consciousness whether we like it or not. It just is. In fact, we may have a myriad of other nasty states of consciousness such as; shame, guilt, apathy, grief, fear, desire, anger, pride...

But low and behold, the first thing we are hit with is that darned Serenity Prayer. We are asked to be granted with acceptance, courage, and wisdom. These states of consciousness are actually out of order... for courage should be first. We are granted courage when we step up to the plate and admit we got a problem with booze and need Power to get past here. We then may grow to the level of consciousness which is neutrality... Neutrality! Remember that one? Then willingness, then acceptance. When we get to acceptance, we not only accept our situation, but we come to accept the world. We see that our problems are of our own making... that love is not something we obtain from out there... but it is produced from within. We get away from the dichotomy of black and white, right and wrong... etc.

From acceptance, we may advance to reason... that which is the place of doctors, Nobel Peace Prize winners, Einsteins, Frauds, etc. But... is that far enough? Not for the alky. The book talks about Reason... and how it is good, but how me must bridge the shore of Reason to Faith... that which does not confuse the symbols for their true meaning. Having interpretted a bunch of data and drawn a false conclusion, Reason does not in itself lead us to Truth. Truth is knowable and attainable.

The real question is, do you want Power? Do you want to get well?

The "Crux" of the Problem

2011-08-15T07:51:00.002-06:00

"The monkey's off our back but the circus is still in town". So goes' the the ole saying, one which brings an immediate identification for most alcoholics that have been dry for any period of time. It becomes apparent as we try to integrate back into the society that we had turned our backs on (or never felt a part of to begin with) that we have a host of contorted emotional conflict within us. We carried around a toxic soup of misappropriated feelings and ideas about life that obviously weren't working. As we related to others we were content one minute, wanna kill some son-bitch the next! The jobs ok, then we felt like an incompetent idiot, may as well die!!!!... naw, just drink-the next minute. Periodically we would suffer from a relapse into a debilitating low self concept. Some innocuous social event occurs. An embracement, an attempt at humor in a social setting backfires, common place rejection in romance or business, we recoil into "tunnel thinking". Suddenly our entire life is defined by that one disproportionally uncomfortable moment. We have no peripheral memory of ever having done ANYTHING RIGHT! We cannot escape the moment; we cannot put Humpty Dumpty back together again. This "sort of thinking dominates an alcoholic who repeats time after time the desperate experiment of the first drink".

Drinking alcohol is not what was wrong with the alcoholic before he ever took his first drink. Booze was a solution that we stumbled upon, back when we didn't know there was anything wrong with our approach to life. We were not even aware that drinking was a solution to anything, we just naturally followed the well worn path between our house and the 7 Eleven. For most of us the "discovery" of alcohol marked a place of arrested emotional development, deterioration. We seemed to grow more irresponsible, more immature while the non-alcoholic people around us were steady, as if they intuitively knew how to live.

Dr. Carl Young pegged it when he explained to Rowland that a radical personality change brought on by a spiritual awakening is what needed to take place if any chance of permanent sobriety was to follow. He explained: "Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them" The AA text explains that we have being trying to get "a new attitude" towards life by way of a new relationship with our creator.

As alcoholics, drinking became the only normal life, but while we may have recovered from drinking, now we have to recover from "the crux of the problem". If not then we become so uncomfortable in our own skin that a return to drinking or even the thought of suicide looks attractive.

Colter K.

Making A.A. a safer place - Grassroots Movement??

2011-08-05T16:04:00.016-06:00

I'm gonna go ahead and take on a topic that SR threw into the waste basket.

I'm actually surprised the thread lasted as long as it did... but after Carol and Company chopped it up, who knows how it ended? Sort of a funny reminder how some winded up here from time to time. I'd also like to make you aware that I was first directed to this topic from SR by none other than ST. So... it's a hot topic... one I think we are mature enough to discuss here. So, here goes;

The OP writes;

What does everyone think to this grassroots movement that seems to be happening in US to make people aware of as someone coined it 'the dark underbelly of AA' or as i would like to see it rougue individuals.

Does this flyer/poster seem alarmist and frighten people away, or does it raise important issues for newcomers as well as reminding longer term folk as well?

I know some groups have introduced wording into the start of the meeting about 13 stepping etc because people are worried about some of the things that have happened.

What are people's experiences in the past, is this new or has this been tried before? Have people seen other things happen on the ground or are there changes they would like to see?

So... a seemingly level-headed but proA.A.er says this,

Yeah I don't see any problem with individual meetings making a statement such as this. I can see why it has not been accepted by the GSO though, there is no message of recovery there, and it has nothing at all to do with AA as a program.

As far as 13th stepping... I don't get it, people get all up in arms about "Ohhh (s)he only has however much time, (s)he shouldn't be talking to them...." I've never understood this putting an arbitrary time stamp on new people, like after a year they are magically functional, after a year god suddenly removes the obsession? I had always been taught that I am only a newcomer until I've done the work and had a spiritual awakening. Sometimes this may occur in a week, sometimes in a year.

Also, why is the assumption that there is always distinct "victim" in these situations? Does this behavior not speak volumes to the state of both parties, that both are so desperate for a distraction, both more than willing to wrongly place their reliance upon another human that they mutually make the decision to do whatever feels good at the moment. Just because one hasn't had a drink for a while does not mean that they are healthy. And, to that end, the book is pretty clear on how to handle such people-as any other sick person.

In my experience, at least with the dudes, I pull them aside and pose this that type of question to them, especially if I notice that its a cyclic kinda behavior. Offer to help them do the work, again if necessary. Beyond that, its not my job to make sure these people are "safe". Its simply my job to carry a message to them, and yes, part of that message is that you cannot transmit something you haven't got, soooo if you haven't got it.... then stay away from the ladies.

Then the anti/XAers come back with allegations of the Midtown Group and Carol comes back with an admittedly nice take,

The MidTown allegations were investigated by the D.C. police
who declined to make arrest due to lack of evidence.

so please let's not get all tangled up with that.

The proAAer was given the final word before Dee boarded the thread up and sent the posters back up to bed without any porridge...

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, it sounds like you were in a really ****** position that never should have happened. Also sorry to hear you harbor such anger against a fellowship of people that had nothing to do with whatever happened instead of the individuals involved. If you were that 15 year old then police action hopefully was taken and you got your day in court. That kind of behavior should be stopped.

As far as being a dumping ground, you're right there are people in the rooms who likely are not alcoholics but get court ordered there. The unfortunate thing is, as you've seen on other threads here, there is no sure fire way to challenge these people and ask them to leave on that basis. Alcoholism is essentially a self diagnosis for the purposes of AA.

However, there are many who truly are alcoholics who happen to be sex offenders or other "low lifes" and there is no way we can or should prohibit these people from attending meetings. They are there for the same solution as the rest of us, they deserve the same shot at this thing as that "innocent" person walking in with a clean record.

Oh, and when it gets into breaking the law, then that is another issue. Then, there is something tangible where we as a society, outside and including the fellowship have come together to agree on a norm. And as such authorities should be contacted and people should be reported, just as if it was a youth sports league, school, etc.

But, the stereotypic "low life" "preying" on a new girl... sorry, he deserves his seat as much as she does if they are both alcoholic.

_______________________________________________

So, what's my take on the deal?

In A.A., we are a bunch of wretched sinners! I personally would like to encourage any lurker, AAer, potential AAer, etc. to go to an A.A. meeting and just observe. Before you judge your bretheren... which Jesus says you must do... but to do so carefully... look first at your own motive... your own life.

Judge not lest you be judged... but woe unto you hippocrite... that spites thy brother for the splinter in his eye... whilst not first removing the mote in thine own eye! ... or some such thing. I paraphrase!

I think the Carpenter rocks! I'm going to go to a meeting tonight and recite the Lord's Prayer extra loudly in His honor! I'm gonna say "Evil" extra fucking loudly for the pussy-fuck new-ageys who say "ego" or "self" or some such bullshit.

We humans are evil! We're evil every fucking time we avoid pain and suffering of looking at our own mortality and pathetic petty fucking lives and when we use our own mental abnormalities or whatever is handy to cast our guilt or pain out on another to avoid our own quest to not be uncomfortable.

If somebody propositions you and it's not welcomed, kick them in the fucking balls and scream "RAPE!"

What the fuck is so hard about that? If you don't want to be 13th Stepped , quit spreading your legs!

How fucking simple is this?

Same thing goes with your money. If someone tries to con you, walk away and or say "No!" or scream "Beggar Beggar Beggar!" and point to the offender!

I empower you, with my pompus arrogance. Or you can hang up the sign, but you need to first post the sign to your own fucking head! Your own motives start with you.

Do you want to go to this A.A. meeting or not? If so, why? Is it to preach your anti-Christian agenda? Is it to score? Are you lonely? Or is it because you might have "it" and want to help your fellow people? Or might it be because you're a real alky who doesn't know what you're gonna do to stay sober and you are honestly afraid to drink again because you don't yet have "it" and you might be vaguely aware that you cannot not drink booze left to your own devices?

_______________________________________

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Mopar tuneup pics

Some update pics on my Chryler. It's going back under the knife. Take note of the exhaust (front) valve for cylinder #5... how it sticks up a bit. Yup. Valve seat is shot and I'm getting a new valve job. This is why I was driving around on 7 cylinders. Not too shabby, but I'm looking forward to getting all 8 up and running again.

SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE

2011-08-01T17:03:00.002-06:00

The Puzzling Role of Religion in Recovery

Alcoholics who report “spiritual experiences” do better at the 9-month mark. God might be optional, but so-called spiritual experiences—and an increased attitude of forgiveness—seem to give alcoholics an edge during the first year of recovery, say psychiatric workers at the University of Michigan Addiction Research Center. Like it or not, AA and most other 12-Step programs have a “God as you understand it” clause. Sometimes the emotional impulse that kicks off a successful recovery comes in a form identified as “spiritual.” Recent arguments over the issue have threatened to split Alcoholics Anonymous into warring camps. While AA diehards battle with secular 12-Steppers over the issue of spirituality and religion, Elizabeth Robinson and coworkers at the University of Michigan have been trying to look at the picture apart from the AA universe. As Robinson puts it, “prior studies have been limited to treatment-seeking and Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) samples.” So the Michigan group recruited 364 volunteers from abstinence-based treatment centers, a moderation drinking program, and untreated individuals from the local communityThe researchers measured the spiritual and religious belief structure of the alcoholics at the beginning of the survey period, and again at six months. They collected reports of spiritual and religious experiences during that time, and used this data to predict who would show a “good drinking outcome” at nine months. Robinson says that participants who reported “increases in day-to-day spiritual experiences” were the most likely to be free of heavy drinking episodes 3 months later. The definitions are vague, and the study is fraught with “confounding variables,” as the researchers like to say, but Robinson and her co-workers say that the best outcomes were found in volunteers who had daily spiritual experiences, and who showed increases in psychological measures of “forgiveness” and “purpose in life.” The three-year study suggested to Robinson that spirituality, so called, “was not necessarily a matter of believing in one interpretation of God, or even belief in a God of any kind…. The relationship between spirituality and likelihood of recovery was unrelated to whether a person took part in AA or not.”

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I ran across this at "The Fix" web site and thought it was sort of interesting. I wonder why the "9 month" mark keeps popping up. This seems to be a hurdle for us alcoholics - GSO reports that the 9 month chip is the least given out. My personal experience is that it was always between 8 and 9 months that I went back out again. Maybe the spiritual experience was something I was missing at the time. Dunno.

Discuss.

R.I.P. Darby

2011-07-30T18:48:00.003-06:00

Went to a memorial for my friend Darby this afternoon. Darby would have liked it-a bunch of A.A.'s gathered together to tell dumb jokes and eat free food. Patrick, you would have liked him, he an Irish drunk with a big red alcoholic nose and a smile on his face.

Darby was 37 years sober when he passed two weeks ago. He loved life. He loved to dance, and fittingly that's how he went. Was out dancing and went to men's room and had a heart attack.

Darby had a huge heart and gentle & kind spirit. He loved people and he loved life. I never heard him say an unkind word to anybody or about anybody, which is more than I can say for myself. He loved the street drunks and would take them blankets and cigarettes, and when required, booze. He detoxed more than dew on his couch.

Don P, used to say that you can't beat the game of life, you are either living it or you are dying it, but you can't beat it. Darby lived it by sharing it with everyone he met.

We have the secret to eternal life. Darby touched a lot of alcoholics and as long as they are touching alcoholic's lives and those ones go on to touch lives, Darby will always be with us. But having said that, I'm going to miss him. I was privileged to have know a guy like him.

Rehab's Words of Wisdom

2011-07-27T20:46:00.003-06:00

Addiction: The disease that lies

Marvin S eppala, M.D., is the chief medical officer of Hazelden, a private not-for-profit alcohol and drug treatment program

I learned of four addiction-related deaths this weekend. Three were people I knew in Portland, Oregon, recovery circles and the fourth was Amy Winehouse.

Tragically one must get used to such news if you spend a lot of time with those who have this disease. Whenever someone with addiction dies, I grieve the lost potential and wonder about the limitations of our ability to address this cunning, baffling and powerful disease.

I am also humbled by my own experience with addiction and recovery, and grateful for the help I received.

It seems nearly impossible to believe that people with addiction would continue to use drugs and alcohol to the point of death, but that is what people with addiction do: They deny both the consequences and the risks of using. As we continue to learn about addiction, we’re understanding more about why addicted people behave the way they do. But that’s little solace for friends and family.

Addiction is a brain disease, and our knowledge of it has expanded significantly, which has informed our treatment programs and altered our perceptions. We know that addiction resides in the limbic system, a subconscious part of our brain that is involved with memory, emotion and reward.

We refer to this area of the brain as the reward center, as it ensures that all rewarding or reinforcing activities, especially those associated with our survival, are prioritized. The reward center makes sure we survive by eating, drinking fluids, having sex (for survival of the species) and maintaining human interactions.

In late stages of addiction we can see how reward-related drives, especially those for survival, are reprioritized when people risk their families, their jobs, even their lives to continue to use drugs and alcohol. The continued use of the drug becomes the most important drive, at a subconscious level and unrecognized by the individual, undermining even life itself.

When a methamphetamine-addicted mother makes the nightly news after neglecting her children for four days while on a meth run, we can’t comprehend how anyone could do such a thing and tend to think she does not love her children. She may have been going out for groceries with the intent to return home and feed her children, but ran into a dealer and started using.

Addiction took over, and she was driven by subconscious forces even though she loves her children as much as I love mine. Her love and her natural instincts to care for and nurture her children were overridden by her own brain, the reward system reprogrammed to seek and use drugs at all costs. Unbeknownst to her, drug use has become the most important thing in her life.

When we witness the incomprehensible behaviors associated with addiction we need to remember these people have a disease, one that alters their brain and their behaviors. We tend to believe we all have free will, so it is difficult to understand how the addicts' perception has been so altered as to drive them to destruction.

We also assume they can make their own decisions, especially when it comes to help for their addiction. In so doing we are expecting the person with a diseased brain to accept the unacceptable, that the continued use of drugs is not providing relief from the problem - it is the problem, and they need to stop that which has become paramount.

They are unable to make such decisions because their brains have been altered to prioritize use of the drugs, even above survival itself.

Relief of psychic pain, the real, unimaginable pain of addiction, is part of the problem. People have many reasons for seeking relief from pain; some pain precedes the addiction, but most pain is the result of the addiction.

The addicted neglect their primary relationships and they may lie, cheat and steal to continue drug use. And they know this at some level, they recognize their uncontrolled behaviors, but they can’t change, they can’t stop.

Hopelessness becomes a way of life. Self-loathing, shame and guilt become the norm as the consequences of continued drug use accumulate.

They use drugs to ease the pain, but the very remedy exacerbates the problem. The answer to their dilemma goes unrecognized due to the neurobiological changes that have occurred in their brains.

The good news is that treatment is effective and specifically designed to help people recognize the problem within. Most people are coerced into treatment for one reason or another; they may be facing legal issues, job loss or divorce.

With good treatment their likelihood for recovery and abstinence is just as good as the minority who seek treatment of their own accord. Unfortunately, less than 10% of those with addiction recognize they have it and seek treatment.

This is the primary reason people don’t seek help. Our largest public health problem goes unrecognized by those with the disease.

Every one of these deaths is tragic. They died of a disease that lies to them. Amy Winehouse had incredible musical talent that enthralled the masses, but she became known as much for her struggle with addiction.

We can safely watch such a tragedy, gawking as we drive by the destruction, insulated from the suffering and unable to help. But addiction is all around us and we need to respond to the rising death toll.

All of us are responsible for learning the truth about addiction, raising awareness and intervening for those who have this disease, knowing they are unlikely to be able to do for themselves.

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I came across this tonight, read it several times and said "Huh!" Less than 10% of those addicted to any drug, and I'll focus on alcohol here, recognize that they're alcoholics? Thus intervention is the answer? Maybe from Hazleden's perspective, but my experience has shown intervention to be one of the least effective modes of getting someone into treatment. This guy makes it sound like we have half the population of the country stumbling around drunk and not having a clue that something's wrong. Thus the rest of the country needs to educate themselves to force the alcoholics into treatment centers.

Yeah, that's the ticket. Force them all in... Don't bother with the little details of how you determine a person is a real alcoholic (or not). And while they're in there for 28 days, run them through the 12 steps and show them what AA should really be like. I'll stop before I go on a rant.

Discuss.

God is your only source of power

2011-07-24T17:15:00.003-06:00

Henrietta Seiberling recalled in her 1971 remarks at the annual AA “Founders Day” in Akron, that “God is your only source of power”. Seiberling was the Oxford Group member in Akron Ohio that became the not so coincidental conduit between Bill W. and cofounder Dr. Bob S. She hosted the meeting between the two at her home, The Gate Lodge of the Stan Hywet Hall estate, where Bill W. and Dr. Bob would meet for the first time. That meeting took place 5:00 P.M., Mother's Day, May 12, 1935.

Seiberlings place and influence in the fortuitous events that lead up to that providential meeting are not well known in AA lore. As a non-alcoholic Oxford grouper she had already been working with Dr. Bob, arranging for him to attend the weekly meeting at T. Henry’s house. There Dr. Bob would for the first time make the “group confession”; "Well, you good people have all shared things that I am sure were very costly to you, and I am going to tell you something which may cost me my profession. I am a silent drinker, and I can't stop." The common practice of introducing ourselves as alcoholics at the opening of our meetings has it’s origin in this practice of “group confession”. Dr. Bob was then asked “Do you want to go down on your knees and pray?" And he said, "Yes." So they did. That was several weeks prior to meeting Bill Wilson for the first time.

A couple of years earlier in January 1933, Henrietta’s father in-law Harvey Sr. and his son, Russell "Bud" Firestone, sponsored an Oxford movement event at the Mayflower hotel there in Akron. Firestone Sr., by way of his minister, Dr. Walter Tunks, personally hosted the big dinner and brought Dr. Frank N.D. Buchman, the founder of the Oxford movement to Akron. This was all in appreciation for the help the group had given his son “Bud” with his drinking problem. Seiberling described the Oxford group as a “movement which tried to recapture the power of first Century Christianity in the modern world, and a quality of life which we must always exercise”. Henrietta attended that revival styled event where she heard Buchman’s talk wherein he exclaimed to the audience “get right with God”! She did and became a devoted member.

Fast forward to Bill W’s stay in Akron when Bill found himself pacing the lobby of that very same hotel. Tempted to drink, he sees the Bar on one side, and a church directory on the other. He asked for “guidance” in prayer, it came. He went to the directory and put his finger on one random name out of a list. That name was Dr. Walter Tunks. Tunks would direct Bill to Seiberling, of all people. The rest is history.

Bill Wilsons former “preaching” in New York had proved a failure. Now, In his desperate shape, away from home, without a sponsor, discouraged by the collapse of his business interest in Akron, it would seem that he was once again humbled by the reality of the temptation to drink at the Mayflower hotel. It was in a cooperative state of mind that Bill would help himself by helping another man, an equal in the dilemma.

So then and there a founding protocol was established, that brand of AA that was transmitted in unscripted sincerity between Seiberling, Bill and Doctor Bob, between Bill, Bob and AA number one, in T. Henry's living room, on their knees upstairs with a the new man, then regularly at the King School in Akron, between the non-alcoholic Oxford group members and the drunks coming in for help. In all of these occasions God was a welcome and assumed presence.

That was the brand of love, living love, pre text book love, the love that sparked the connection of understanding compassion when one alcoholic worked with another. We can still practice that Love, minus the doctrinal lectures, without over analysis paralysis, without the over specialization that has at times transfigured the solution back into a mystery. There was the simple, one on one phenomenon that was being practiced in the years prior to the advent of our basic text. Make the decision, clean house and trust God, live a decided life each day, share your faith experience, for that was the CORE solution of the AA frontier. That was before we began to parse words and use 1930's dictionaries and further research their Latin origins, before our message took on a more wholesale narrative, often parroting another instead of trusting the power of God, allowing the “spirit of truth” to do it’s own work and telling our story of how we got out.

Seiberling is also credited for her influence in the formative principles which became the 12 Traditions of AA. She was part of the “inner circle” who early objected to the idea of sanitariums or hospitals being considered by Bill, Bob and Anne Smith, Dr Bobs wife. Sieberling insisted "No, we'll never take any money!” On the topic of anonymity she recalled “Another way where I saw that the devil could try to destroy us was having prominent names.”

In latter years Sieberling proved to be somewhat of a “thorn in the side” of AA as she felt it had evolved away from the simplistic God centered meetings of its earlier years. She recounted: "And I tried to give to the people something of my experience and faith. What I was most concerned with is that we always go back to faith". This brings me to the third thing that would be destructive to the early days, Bob and Bill said to me. "Henrietta, I don't think we should talk too much about religion or God." I said to them, "Well, we're not out to please the alcoholics. They have been pleasing themselves all these years. We are out to please God. And if you don't talk about what God does, and your faith, and your guidance, then you might as well be the Rotary Club or something like that. Because God is your only source of power." And finally they agreed. And they weren't afraid any more. It is my great hope that they will never be afraid to acknowledge God and what he has done for them.

Sieberling continued,

“The last AA dinner that I went to, over 3,000 people were there. And it was the first meeting that I went to which I was disappointed in. There were two witnesses there, a man and a woman, and you would have thought they were giving you a description of a psychiatrist's work on them. Their progress was always on the level of psychology. And I spoke to Bill afterwards and I said that there was no spirituality there or talk of what God had done in their lives. They were giving views, not news of what God had done. And Bill said, "I know, but they think there were so many people that need this and they don't want to send them away." So there again has come up this same old bugaboo - without the realization that they have lost their source of power.” [source; Transcript of Henrietta's remarks presented at Founder's Day, June 10, 1971]

In the 1950’s Sieberling was living on Park Ave in New York, She was by then very disturbed by the direction AA had taken. In a letter to Clarance S. of Cleavland, himself a founding member of the first AA group meeting she would write,

"A lot of people up here are buffaloed into being "W.W.s" (Wilson Worshipers) instead of "A.A.s'." Notice that A.A. is at the beginning & WW is at the end, even of the alphabet."

She also wrote Clarence,

"Bill will stand exposed for the show off that he is. He is so empty that as you know Anne [Smith] begged me to do a little "missionary work" on him. She [Anne Smith, Dr. Bob's wife] was sorry to have heard him at the last banquet she came to hear."

Upon the death of Dr Bob in June 1953 Henrietta wrote Clarence S. again about A.A.'s memorial Grapevine issue for Dr. Bob. She wrote:
“I can't really read it through because the truth is so doctored up to suit Bill's claims. - The telephone conversation involving me is utterly false & all of it so 'slanted' - I wish he would have left me in the anonymity I have kept” [source How It Worked THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER
AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO]

Henrietta Buckler Seiberling died December 5 1979 at her Park Ave. home In New York. She was inducted into the Ohio Women's Hall of Fame on October 21, 1998, “best remembered for her pivotal role in the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous.”

Colter K.

Is A.A. a religion or not? If not, would it benefit society if "we" just called it a religion?

2011-07-16T12:49:00.003-06:00

I know we've discussed a variation of this topic before, but I'd like to hear again why A.A. should not consider itself a religion.

Also, what is the spiritual approach and why is it effective with alcoholics?

What is A.A.s definition of a "real alcoholic" and is it valid today?

Did Bill and Bob and the authors of the Alcoholics Anonymous book know what they were talking about with regards to being an alcoholic?

Did the A.A. fellowship of 1938 know anything about "alcoholism"? Have advancements about "alcoholism" from then to now made a difference with alcoholics and addicts?

Step 1: Am I An Alcoholic?

2011-07-13T14:01:00.002-06:00

Step 1: am I an alcoholic?
______________________________________
I think this should be asked of every new person prior to coming to the meeting... and be asked to have an open mind to your first step.

Am I an alcoholic? Well am I? How do I find out?

One good way is to go back into my own experience. Look at how I drank booze. Not so much looking at the drama or outer circumstances, but how was it with me and booze? How was it when I tried to control my drinking? Why did I feel the need to control my drinking? How was I when I was abruptly separated from booze once I had a good drunk started?

Ultimately, could I control the amount once I started, and/or, could I stay stopped for something like a year on my own power. When I read pages 30, 31, 32, 33, etc... I start to understand why I might just be an alcoholic.

It's also good to know what an alcoholic isn't. What is a hard drinker? What is a moderate drinker? A teetotaler? Can a hard drinker cross the line and become a real alky? Well, evidently yes. And once an alky, always an alky. But not just anybody can get drunk and become an alcoholic. It's complicated, but it just doesn't work that way. Alcoholism is a very selective malady and tests have been done to support this "theory" if you will. I like what a book Under the Influence says about the matter. But I don't like the doc's plan for recovery.

That's all we need, is another plan, right?

But I was given the dignity to find out for myself whether I was an alky or not. I was not forced, coerced, rushed, etc. into AA. I was given the dignity to come to my own conclusion and act accordingly. At one point, my group had to watch me fight recovery and go out and drink again. As the book say, alcohol is the Great Persuader. For it finally and once again "beat me into a state of reasonableness."

When I came back in, they said I looked whipped. They said I was quiet, scared, and didn't seem to have a plan. For me, that was the start of my first step. But I was given the gift of "being open to my first step" and follow the path of consideration.

To partake in a spiritual excercise, you have to start with a question, not an answer.

It was not necessary that I drink again because for one thing, that's dangerous for a guy like me. I could have died or killed people. But... I got in fear and refused to deal with it. Another plan is to see how well you stay sober on your own power. If neither that nor trying some controlled drinking doesn't work, you're probably an alcoholic.

Coming to the realization that you're an alcoholic should be a scary one. It was for me. For, left to my own devices, I will drink again. And for me to drink again means

death

insanity

incarceration.

So this idea of a God personal to me becomes pretty believable. That's how the 1st step shakes out for me. It's not just the 1st step as listed on the Step Scroll or on page 60. It's everything from Title Page, preface, forwards, Dr's Opinion, Bill's Story, There is a Solution, More about Alcoholism, and a paragraph on We Agnostics... other known as the Bedevilments... "We were having problems with personal relationships..."

And if you'll notice, the first 8 pages of Bill's Story is his drunkalog. You can ask yourself "How did I drink, think and feel like Bill?" Pages 9-16 was what he did to recover.

Up to page 23 or so... that's the physical "craving of booze" when it's in my body. From right after that to about page 43, that's the mental obsession or when alcohol is not in my body, but in my mind; the mental obsession. Then the bedevilments on page 52 talk to me about the spiritual malady, or my life without God, whether I'm sober or not.

Step 1, for me it didn't happen over night.

_____________________________________

I posted this probably on my first day at SR and I like the responses that follow it. If I was asked right now what my thoughts are on step one, they would simply center around the 2 issues of control, me with a drink in my body and me with no booze in my system, but reaching for that next first drink... and what exactly was going through my mind at the time.

THE MAN OR HIS WORDS

2011-07-09T21:06:00.001-06:00

A few things I’ve been reading lately, and some discussions at a few meetings I’ve been to got me to thinking. What’s the role of Bill Wilson in AA today as opposed to the role of the Big Book, the 12 and 12, etc?

The subject actually came to a head with some of the sophomoric (sorry, MA) comments I came across while reading ST. I saw a lot of references to the “prophet Bill Wilson” and other such nonsense made with the insinuation that Bill is a God-like figure to those in AA, someone to be worshipped and glorified.

Now, either I’ve always gone to the wrong meetings or I never got the memo. But this is news to me.

This blog, and every meeting I’ve ever attended, focuses on AA as a recovery program contained in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. 16 of those pages cover Bill’s Story, hardly a paean to someone worshipped and glorified. I seldom if ever hear “Bill Wilson said…” and often hear “ The Big Book says…” even though Bill wrote the Big Book.

Yeah, we also have the “As Bill Sees It” and a few biographies/autobiographies, but again, I never get the feeling that Bill Wilson as an individual is that important to the program. It’s what he wrote – his thoughts and ideas - that matter.

So my question is, just how important in today’s AA is Bill Wilson? How many of us think of the man when we read the Big Book? I have my personal views of Bill as a man, but I also acknowledge his both his brilliance in coming up with the AA program and his willingness to listen to the advice of others when he was creating the program.

Personally, I read the Big Book as I read any other important reference material - for the content, not because of the author. I have the utmost respect and admiration for what Bill accomplished. I But do I worship him? Hardly.

Discuss.

Alcoholism research was in its infancy in 1935 and we’re so far advanced today?

2011-07-07T21:53:00.004-06:00

Really? I don’t think so.

Alcohol has been around for thousands of years. Alcoholics and/or alcoholism has been around for thousands of years.

Since 1935, we’ve not really advanced too far in the realm of science, medicine, psychology, the understanding of human nature and behavior, the realm of spirituality and religion, etc.

All we’ve done since 1935 is advanced a bit with regards to applications of advancements made over the last few hundred years and beyond.

If anything, we’ve gone backwards in many ways.

It seems a very old-fashioned way of doing things, those 12 Steps. Maybe not so. Maybe doing a set of steps, getting yourself prepared to do that one-on-one recovery with a thirsty yet whipped drunk is an old and proven ancient technique, but it got lost in the shuffle… or wasn’t properly documented and/or written down. Who knows? I do know this; the way I was shown… which looks an awful lot like the 164, sure does seem more and more sensible.

My part?

2011-07-06T13:42:00.000-06:00

"Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes."

As one of our eternal mentors (Don) says, "We don't look for our part, because that would assume they have a part in this." Their "part" is of no matter when we're making amends to someone. Whether they have a "part" or not is of no consequence here. If you go into an amend expecting a reciprocal amend, you may be disappointed. To go into it with that expectation may kill the spirit of the whole deal.

Don says that freedom comes in the 6th Step, or the willingness to turn loose of the defect. How can you even see your "part" if you're thinking about their "part"?

It seems like such a huge and simple deal. I can think back to instances where I got free of the defect or did not based on this simple principle.

And on another note, I'm sorry if the removal of some recent posts deleted your comments. The reasoning was that it just did not reach those it was intended for and may have created undue pressure on the recipient. I tend to want answers now rather than considering anothers' reason for posting or not posting. My friend Roger claimed that he couldn't figure out how to post here, but he hasn't called me or emailed me either. Maybe he's just too busy.

Karl and TonyJ, idk. I just don't feel like I should bother them anymore and I wish them well. I've talked to them on the phone in the past and I felt like we left things on good terms. My phone works both ways, so I'll leave them be, but they are missed.

I did a stupid thing over at Stinkin' Thinkin' by even posting over there, but I made mention of Danny B as a such and such pissant or something like that. He found that and responded with an insulting response to me. I was wrong for even mentioning him in that company. I'm going to have to pay for that action.

I want Danny to know that I don't care what he thinks of me. I don't share his assement of me. I'm not a pussy in any way. My sexual orientation is straight in every way. Not that any other is wrong for you. It just is what it is for me. I don't care what you think about our blog and its lack of traffic. I don't care about your blog, your assessment of me, my level of sobriety and spirituality, and my Maker, etc. I just want you to go away. We are done. I would offer to leave you alone and would request you to leave me alone. I don't want what you got and you obviously don't want what I got.

That I'm trying to imagine a world where I've put aside my "rights" and my need to fight, to push back, etc. does not mean I'm going to be any good at it. I've found a path to sobriety and I'm seeking a way to communicate that in a more effective manner. I've still got some defects of character that are not going away over night. This will take time. Maybe my mistakes and subsequent suffering will expedite this process. I hope so anyway.

Hope this post finds you all well. I've got to get ready for work. Have a good day.

Power and Responsibility

2011-06-18T15:03:00.003-06:00

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

It is our light, not our darkness

That most frightens us.

We ask ourselves

Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?

Actually, who are you not to be?

You are a child of God.

Your playing small

Does not serve the world.

There's nothing enlightened about shrinking

So that other people won't feel insecure around you.

We are all meant to shine,

As children do.

We were born to make manifest

The glory of God that is within us.

It's not just in some of us;

It's in everyone.

And as we let our own light shine,

We unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

As we're liberated from our own fear,

Our presence automatically liberates others.

I went to a meeting today and listened people talk about being powerless and their lives being unmanageable. I heard a lady with 29 years talk about how she is still "recovering" and struggling with wanting to drink and how she relies on human power (meetings) to stay away from that drink. There was a guy there who is brand new, it was his second A.a. meeting ever. I realize that these people were only speaking from where they are at, but I wonder if any of them stop to consider what kind of message they are carrying. I hear these people say "I know it works, but I don't know how it works." I wonder if they think that they are being humble. But I don't think they realize how irresponsible they are being. It is my responsibility to know how it works. I'm rather useless in Alcoholics Anonymous if I don't know how it works.

I thank God that when my ears finally opened and my eyes were able to see, that I encountered men who were not carrying that message. They told me that not only did I not ever have to drink again, but that they could show me precisely how they had recovered. They said I did not have to stay in a state of constant struggle, always fighting. They said that I could get well here. They told me that their lives made sense to them and that they could show me a way to live in which my life would make sense to me. At the time, my life didn't make sense to me or anyone else. These days, my life makes sense to me, I know what it is about, and I don't much care if it makes sense to anyone else.

It has been said that to whom much is is given, much will be asked. Early on I awakened to the responsibility I had been given, and at first it scared me and it disturbed me. Think about it, people put their lives in our hands on a daily basis, and that is an awesome responsibilty that I don't take lightly. So to sit and say that I'm still sick and struggling is not only playing small and being irresponsible, it is messing with what can be a life and death situation.

Why do people in A.A. carry the mesaage that denies the Power of God? Well, they are only expressing their own agnosticism. They are afraid, because although we say that lack of power can be a dilemma, power can be a dilemma too, if you don't know what to do with it. Because with power comes responsiblity. They would rather be powerless, unmamageable, irresponsible, and in the dark. They play small, thinking they are being humble, when really it is a false modesty. To quote the late Frank Mck., they are saying that they are less than what they are, they are saying that this program doesn't work. The Power is there, it has always been there. We just have to tap into into it. "We have recovered and have been given the Power to help others." That is what Power is for and to use it for anything else is a waste of spirit.

Don Pritts, 9 of 9, Tanglewood 2003, A.A. Pitch

2011-06-17T02:12:00.000-06:00

Don Pritts, 8 of 9, Tanglewood 2003, A.A. Pitch

2011-06-17T01:38:00.003-06:00

Don Pritts, 7 of 9, Tanglewood 2003, A.A. Pitch

2011-06-16T17:10:00.003-06:00

Don Pritts, 6 of 9, Tanglewood, 2003 A.A. Pitch

2011-06-16T11:44:00.004-06:00

Don Pritts, 5 of 9, Tanglewood, 2003 A.A. Pitch

2011-06-13T14:37:00.004-06:00

Don Pritts, 3 and 4 of 9 Tanglewood, 2003 A.A. pitch

2011-06-10T14:08:00.007-06:00

Don Pritts, R.I.P., pitch at Tanglewood 2003

2011-06-09T21:22:00.006-06:00

I knew Don and a few of his sponsee's from Denver Colorado. I went to a traditions workshop he put on at Happy Way years ago. I know that Jim was very close to him.

I'm gonna do my best to get these on here in a timely fashion. I've found a quicker way to get them to the internet. Sure, you could just go to XA Speakers and get this in MP3 format, but I thought this would be good to have on the blog as we seem to be collecting solid Denver old-school speakers.

Imagine all the lives touched by Frank, Don, and Bob O. (not yet deceased)...

Well anyway, hope the sound quality is acceptable. Here are the first two sections of his 7 section pitch/workshop, with about 7 ten minute subsections per section;

Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups

2011-06-05T12:20:00.004-06:00

From The Toronto Star:

It uses “fellowship” to help chronic drinkers quit the bottle. But there is little fellowship in a schism that splintered the Alcoholics Anonymous umbrella group in the GTA this week.

At issue is this question: Do alcoholics need God?

On Tuesday, Toronto’s two secular AA groups, known as Beyond Belief and We Agnostics, were removed or “delisted” from the roster of local meetings. They’ve disappeared from the Toronto AA website and will not be in the next printed edition of the Toronto directory.

The dispute started when Beyond Belief posted an adapted version of AA’s hallowed “Twelve Steps” on the Toronto website. They removed the word “God” from the steps, which are used as a kind of road map to help drinkers achieve sobriety.

“They took issue with a public display of secular AA,” says Joe C., who founded Beyond Belief, Toronto’s first agnostic AA group, 18 months ago. (In keeping with AA’s tradition of anonymity, members are identified by first names only.)

It proved popular enough that a second group started up last fall; it took its name from a chapter in the AA bible entitled Alcoholics Anonymous, commonly known as the Big Book. The group, We Agnostics, had only recently completed the paperwork to be part of AA before being booted out.

“What is unusual is that this didn’t happen in some backwater, but that it happened in a liberal, democratic, pluralistic place like Toronto,” says Joe.

The name of God appears four times in the Twelve Steps and echoes the period in which they were written — the 1930s. It invites those seeking sobriety to turn themselves over to God, who will remove their “defects of character.” They go on to speak of God’s will for the recovering alcoholic.

“They (the altered Twelve Steps) are not our Twelve Steps,” says an AA member who was at Tuesday’s meeting of the coordinating body known as the Greater Toronto Area Intergroup. “They’ve changed them to their own personal needs. They should never have been listed in the first place.”

He says that in the early days of AA, meetings ended with the Lord’s Prayer. “That has obviously stopped in all but hard-core groups. We welcome people with open arms. In our group we still say the Lord’s Prayer. One guy was uncomfortable with that. I told him to just step back when we pray. He does. He’s doing what he needs to do for him.”

The issue of AA’s use of God has come up frequently over the past 50 years. For the most part, the organization — which claims 113,000 groups around the world — permits other agencies to imitate its program, but not to call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous.

Other secular organizations, including Save our Selves (or Secular Organizations for Sobriety), offer addiction help similar to AA. But with some 100,000 members in 2005, SOS is far less popular than AA, which reports a membership of about two million. In Toronto alone, there are 500 AA meetings a week.

“This is not the first we’ve gone up against bigotry,” says Larry of We Agnostics. “This has been an ongoing struggle in North America.”

One man wept in dismay over the delisting at Beyond Belief’s Thursday night meeting at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education on Bloor Street West. Thirty-two people, mostly men, sat at desks in a classroom.

“I do believe in God,” he said after the meeting. “But you don’t need to believe in God to recover and I don’t think it’s appropriate at AA.”

The meeting opened with a statement that said, in keeping with AA tradition, the group did not endorse or oppose either religious belief or atheism. “Our only wish is to ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone else’s beliefs, or having to deny their own.”

“I’ve tried AA meetings and I couldn’t get past the influence of right-wing Christianity,” said a big, Liam Neeson look-alike.

“Last night I went to a meeting and it was like a sermon again,” he told the group. “I felt I should quit.

“But someone told me, ‘hey, go downtown, there’s an atheist/agnostic meeting.’ So I thought I thought I’d give AA one last chance and I came here.”

There’s a moment’s pause.

“Welcome,” the group said.

One of the members, Roger, took issue with AA’s concept of the “God of your understanding.”

“First, there is a gender problem (several of the steps refer to Him). But more importantly, a creator God with a personal interest in me doesn’t fit well with my understanding of how the cosmos works.”

In January, Rev. Pete Watters, 82, and a Catholic priest, celebrated 50 years of sobriety with AA. Several thousand came to an Oakville union hall to celebrate his anniversary.

He knew the roots of the movement well and travelled for seven years with the late Bill Wilson, the charismatic co-founder of AA and author of the Twelve Steps.

In 1961, Wilson, whose early thinking on AA was influenced by the British evangelical Oxford Group, addressed the problems faced by non-believers. He opened the tent to all, but wrote that doubters could eventually take the first “easy” step into “the realm of faith.”

“People and agencies can help,” Watters says, “but the only one who can restore that person to permanent sobriety is God. But that’s the God of your understanding — that can be anything you want.”

In AA God can be interpreted as an acronym for “good, orderly, direction,” or as something that can be found in nature, a set of ethical principles, or even in the courage of fellow AA members.

But it’s essential to turn yourself over to something or someone other, says Watters. “If you don’t believe in any power greater than yourself, you are on your own.”

A woman member of a group that adheres to the traditional Twelve Steps puts it this way: “You need to believe in something higher than yourself. Our self got us drunk.”

Different steps

Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous that cite God:

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, prayer only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Beyond Belief’s adapted Twelve Steps:

2. Came to accept and to understand that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the AA program.

5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.

7. Humbly sought to have our shortcomings removed.

11. Sought through mindful inquiry and meditation to improve our spiritual awareness, seeking only for knowledge of our rightful path in life and the power to carry that out.

R.I.P. Jack McKernan, Lakewood Colorado, Georgia, and New York City

2011-06-02T23:23:00.024-06:00

Jack McKernan... He was a friend of mine. I think his liver gave out on him later in life... after he had been long sober, going to Happy Way, and I do believe that he was sponsored by Bob O... and he probably sponsored many.

I first saw him at the Dragon's Den. He soon left there for a stronger meeting and wound up over on Broadway and just north of Hampden/Jefferson in Englewood Colorado.
I last saw Jack just in October of 2010 in Pueblo Colorado at our Ocsoberfest. He spoke there and was brilliant. I bought his tape. Being he's now deceased, can I try to put his pitch up here? It's a great pitch. Solid A.A.

To Danny; I believe he said that he lived in the ATL.

Resist Not Evil

2011-06-01T17:08:00.001-06:00

Went to what I thought was a good meeting Monday night... my How It Works Group home group meeting. I haven't been for about a couple months or so.

Gary chaired on the topic and related it to Step 10 where we have ceased fighting anything or anyone... even alcohol.

In other words, the steps don't tell me to quit drinking. "I've not even sworn off. Instead the problem has just been removed"...

Now one of our other members was called on to share and went off about how we DO resist evil and so on.

What does "Resist Not Evil" mean to y'all?

My sponsor drank. Now what?

2011-06-01T01:35:00.001-06:00

Go fucking get drunk. You're off the hook.

Or go have a bowl of self pity. That's the problem I have with sponsorship. So what if your fucking sponsor drank? What the fuck does that got to do with you? Maybe you shouldn't have picked a pussy for a sponsor.

But in any case, are you gonna live? Are you gonna do steps? Are you gonna get and stay sober? Are you gonna do each and everyone of those 12 Steps or do you want to do something else?

If you want a lurking notion or a loophole, then just go drink. Or... if you want a reason to leave A.A. and find another path... there ya go.

So much for the "working with others" is insurance against the next drink theory. The fact that you were someone else's pigeon should have guaranteed his/her own sobriety... but oh fuck! So much for that debunked myth.

Get through with the fucking steps and get sponsor free. That's what I say.

Will-nots

2011-05-30T03:17:00.002-06:00

Come across any of these lately? I see some folks who are having a hard time staying sober on MOTR... so I think. They seem to know where the good meetings are, but the more they relapse and drink, the more I see them coming back to the weak MOTR "let us love you till you kill yourself" meetings.

They know damn-well there are folks who would welcome them back, but they don't want to face the music? They don't want to do steps? They don't want to succeed?

I went to a MOTR meeting the other day and the most passionate share was a guy struggling with quitting tobacco chewing... Copenhagen no less. This is not the worst topic I've heard from this group. For example, just in this meeting, they made their 20 minute round of announcements, introductions, chips, birthdays, etc... then the chair person said, "Does anyone have a topic?" Then under my breath... I said... like I always do... "CHAIR THE FUCKING MEETING, BITCH!" So... the bleeding deacon of the meeting... a guy with 3 years in this case, says, "Well since we have a new person, let's make Step 1 the topic. So that they did... until she called on people to share.... and three folks passed.

I got called on. I talked about insanity... as it applies to the person who is sober... the moment prior to drinking. I talked about my experience with it and where I am now with sanity... and how the doing of the steps moved me away from insanity.

Well, after the meeting, I went to the guy struggling with the copenhagen and I told him I've been off of tobacco, specifically Copenhagen... for something like 4 years now. He told me he did that, had quit for a year, and he would not/can not stop now. He's basically a "will-not" with tobacco. That's fine.

But why come to an A.A. meeting and fucking bitch about it? It's like these guys who come dragging into A.A., but always find a reason to not finish their 4th steps or want to write another 4th step instead of finishing amends. I don't get it. Do you want to fail? If so, why come to A.A.?

My Grandfather

2011-05-27T15:19:00.002-06:00

Hi guys,
My Grandfather passed away last night. He was 92. He went peacefully, his wife of 62 years was by his side and the majority of his children. He was a remarkable man. Although he was a retired pastor he never preached to me. He demonstrated through action what a God centered life looks like. I am very grateful I got to know him and get close to him. He was a great man and will be missed by many.

Memorial Weekend

2011-05-26T15:58:00.004-06:00

Just asking what everyone is doing.
I'll start Friday morning flying out and heading towards Florida, Englewood (Port Charlotte) live right off the mouth of the Myakka River and the Gulf.
I'll wake up Saturday morning 4:30am and head out into that Gulf searching for my meal that evening. Sea Bass and Grouper would be good. That night will be getting with family and friends at the family house for some good conversation and music. Our family was blessed with some very good musicians and singers.
Sunday the family will have a barbecue, hang out play horseshoes, bocce ball and lots of volley ball.
Monday we all head to the beach and make it a day lounging around again, jet skiing a bit.
I head back tuesday.
I don't know about you guys but I am so looking forward to this. Need the relaxation.

Hitting Bottom?

2011-05-23T14:33:00.000-06:00

Hitting Bottom?

Where did this notion that alcoholics hit a bottom come from?

Did this come from 12 x 12 Bill W. bullshit? Is this in the 164? God, I hope not.

I've heard Mark Houston talk about , "Hit a bottom."

But I disagree with the notion. I don't think there is a bottom bad enough for the alcoholic. It's the fact that I drank again and thought that my drinking was quite alright, "Watch me now." despite past "bottoms" that is baffling.

When I'd wrecked my Nova, I'd sat there in a jail cell, feeling like pounded whale shit... a real fuck-up... I hated me and my life and I would have jumped off if I could have. If you came to me then and told me, "You will drink again and you will think nothing of it." , I think my head would have exploded if it could have. But that's what happened... again and again and again...

It's 6:01, now what?

2011-05-21T18:06:00.002-06:00

Nothing is happening.

No rapture.

No floaties, no crashed airplanes cars or trains.

Look here you 83 year old foo... go home now and shut the f up. If you're gonna whip out your bible and start thumping us with it, read the part that says you are nothing special. You don't know that which nobody else can know. You are a fraud and you got your day in the sun... some attention, now stfd and stfu. The day I hear the likes of Charles Stanley spouting these warnings is the day I'll start to sweat.

Should A.A. remain anonymous?

2011-05-18T13:34:00.001-06:00

Rob B put me onto a topic here and I'd like to present it here in such a way that we see both sides... and maybe some interesting comments that this topic generates.

Please bear with my cutting and pasting;

Heard on NPR, "Taking the A out of A.A."

http://www.nhpr.org/sites/all/mediaplayer/audioplayer.html

An article from the New York Times that began “I’m David Colman and I’m an alcoholic” went viral last week and generated page upon page of discussion online and in print. In it, Colman openly discussed his 15 years of recovery and spoke to other sober people who think that it may be time to revise the anachronistic stigma of addiction and alcoholcs anonymous’s public relations policy that states “ we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.”

Links:

■the new york times piece on a.a.

■responses to dave's piece

________________________________________

Then a seconde article here from the N.Y. Times titled "Challenging the second A in A.A.";

________________________________________

Then, finally an article from The Telegraph discussing why the idea would be a big mistake and why we should not violate the traditions set forth titled "Dropping the Anonymity Rule would be Disastrous for Alcoholics Anonymous";

In an interesting piece on the New York Times website, from Sunday’s paper, a recovering alcoholic named David Colman asks whether the anonymity requirement, which Alcoholics Anonymous imposes on its members, is outdated. He thinks it is old-fashioned because these days there’s no reason to be ashamed of addiction. I think dropping the anonymity rule would be a disaster. It’s an essential part of AA’s success, and the organisation tampers with this key principle at its peril. I think that shame drives addiction, but the antidote to shame is not necessarily incontinent openness – just as the remedy for constipation isn’t diarrhoea.

Why is AA anonymous? Well, here are some of the things AA says on the subject. The 12th tradition states that “anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions”. AA expects its members to “place principles before personalities”. They are expected not to “break” their anonymity in public. And the rules specify they should respect “personal anonymity at the level of press radio and television”. AA’s public relations policy is based on “attraction rather than promotion”. Consider that when famous people trumpet their AA credentials, potential members are as likely to be put off having anything to do with AA, as they are to be encouraged.

The New York Times piece is worth reading. It has contributions from John Cheever’s daughter, Susan, who you’d expect to know more than most about alcoholism. She wrote a piece in The Fix, an addiction magazine, asking whether it was time to take the “A” out of AA. As with Colman, her view is that addiction is an illness, it no longer taints the sufferer with a social stigma, so it’s unhealthy to be secretive about it.

Is she right? Only up to a point, I think. You shouldn’t stigmatise alcoholics, of course not. But alcoholism does involve the operation of free will to an extent, and therefore it is never going to be morally neutral. It’s a disorder of the mind and the soul. But it’s not just the same as diabetes or cancer. And there are plenty of good reasons why ordinary people, as opposed to show-offs and celebrities, will want to remain discreet about an alcoholic history, even if it was years in the past. As Mary Elizabeth Williams puts it in Salon:

Not everyone has the freedom of an Eminem to write an album called “Recovery” and sport an AA triangle at the Grammys. Not everyone has the clout of Russell Brand, who has mirrored his famous bouts of excess and subsequent sobriety in Get Him to the Greek and Arthur. For others, there are profound social and career repercussions. If you’re a schoolteacher or a doctor, maybe you don’t want your colleagues and clients to know that a year ago, you were getting obliterated before work.

The extraordinary thing about AA is how little its members have meddled with it over the years – especially when you compare mainstream Christian denominations, which are forever churning out new and improved translations of their key texts.

The Big Book of AA, the founding text, remains virtually unchanged in its core chapters from when it was written in the 1930s. It retains the old-fashioned locutions of the American mid-west, the non-inclusive language, the talk of drinking “sprees” and the like. And few seriously want to update it. Why? Because it works, and AA members are sensibly reluctant to mess with it. Since anonymity was such an important founding principle, better leave it as it is, surely.

_______________________________________________________

You'll see my comments at the end of the last link.

More on Wet Houses

2011-05-16T20:52:00.003-06:00

More on the wet house issue. It ties in with the discussion about rehabs centers, though, as the most vocal opponents of the concept are rehab directors.

St. Paul, Minnesota (CNN) -- Nick Lott's clothes hang neatly inside his closet. His room is tidy and his bed is sharply made. He says it's "a blessing" that he even has his own room to keep clean.

"This is all I've got, really," Nick says. "It's clean, comfortable, safe -- that's a big thing."

His immaculate living quarters contradict his life, which was upended by his addiction to alcohol. And that's what brought him to St. Anthony Residence in the first place.

On the cinder-block wall next to his TV stand, Nick keeps a tally of how many days it has been since his last drink. At this moment, four days are crossed off the calendar.

About 60 late-stage alcoholics live at St. Anthony Residence in St. Paul, which is partly funded by the state of Minnesota, and operated by Catholic Charities.

It's not a treatment center, although residents have access to counselors. They're even allowed to drink at St. Anthony -- the alcohol isn't provided, but the men are allowed to bring it to the residence.

The residents receive a monthly check of $89, and most of it goes to alcohol.

"We can use that cash on anything we want to do," resident Ray Spoor says, matter-of-factly. "And I don't only use it on alcohol, I use it on personal needs like toiletries ... but after that, I use it on booze."

Meet another St. Anthony resident

Wet house: Dignified spot for alcoholics?

St. Anthony -- often called a wet house -- operates under the principle that it's safer and cheaper to have these guys drinking in a controlled environment than out on the cold Minnesota streets.

"These are all men that have been through treatment, numerous attempts," says St. Anthony Residence program director Bill Hockenberger.

"These are men that lost their jobs, relationships, homes due to alcohol -- all family ties pretty much have really reached rock bottom."

The men are either recommended by the county after numerous visits to detox centers, or they can apply to live there.

Dr. Drew: Pointed questions on 'wet houses'

Hockenberger says St. Anthony follows a harm-reduction model: It provides shelter, meals and medical attention for late-stage alcoholics, defined as those who have suffered a host of physical and psychological problems because of their drinking.

"The staff treat you with respect," Lott says. "I'd be in a bad, bad position without a place like this. ... I would be running around panhandling and annoying people and maybe even stealing."

'Harm reduction' or 'giving up'?

There are at least five "wet houses" for chronic alcoholics in Minnesota. Catholic Charities operates two in the Twin Cities -- St. Anthony in St. Paul and the Glenwood in Minneapolis -- with the help of state funding. And there's a similar residence, called Anishinabe Wakiagun, run by the Native American community in Minneapolis.

Seattle opened 1811 Eastlake, a state-subsidized residence for late-stage alcoholics, in 2005. And other cities, including Anchorage, Alaska; Memphis, Tennessee, and Philadelphia are considering building similar housing.

These are all men that have been through treatment, numerous attempts.
--Bill Hockenberger, St. Anthony Residence program director

There was a lot of opposition in Seattle when the residence was first proposed in 1999. A legal challenge led by a prominent businessman delayed the opening of 1811 Eastlake for six years.

"A lot of the rhetoric that their attorney used was that it would be a party house, a free-for-all," said Nicole Macri, administrative director for Seattle's Downtown Emergency Center, which oversees the residence. "It really has more of a feel of a convalescent home than a party house."

A University of Washington-led research team studied a group of 95 chronically homeless alcoholics and found that in one year, they cost taxpayers more than $8 million in hospitalizations, detox center treatments and incarcerations.

When the same group spent one year in Seattle's Housing First program -- residences where they are allowed to drink -- the same group cost $4 million in taxpayer money, according to the study, which was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

There are other Housing First programs across the United States that emphasize providing shelter first, then treating addictions later.

So far, in Memphis, there hasn't been a lot of opposition to building a residence where alcoholics can drink, city administrator Kimberly Mitchell said.

The potential savings of taxpayer money is at the heart of the argument for a wet house-style residence that is part of Mayor A C Wharton's 10-year action plan to end homelessness, Mitchell said.

"What we're trying to tell them is that it's going to affect everybody -- representatives from 911, from the medical side, as well as the criminal side," she said.

"If you have police pick them up, then that's taxpayer dollars."

Manager: Housing chronic alcoholics makes moral, budget sense

St. Anthony Residence in St. Paul advertises itself as a "cost-effective and compassionate housing option" that "costs less than $50 a night," compared with a night at a detox facility, which costs more than $200.

But the idea of giving chronic alcoholics access to their drug of choice on the taxpayers' dime is unacceptable to most addiction counselors.

It's basically giving up on a treatable disease, according to William C. Moyers, a director at Hazelden addiction treatment centers in the St. Paul-Minneapolis area.

I see the wet house model as a model that enables the addict in the alcoholic to continue those destructive patterns.
--William C. Moyers, addiction treatment center director

"We feel that that it's never too late, and that even if the alcoholic doesn't want help, doesn't mean that their drinking should be condoned or in any other way enabled or facilitated," says Moyers, author of "Broken: My Story of Addiction and Redemption."

"I see the wet house model as a model that enables the addict in the alcoholic to continue those destructive patterns."

Dr. Drew Pinsky, an addiction specialist and host of HLN's "Dr. Drew" show, says that the idea of a residence allowing alcoholics to drink raises some concerns.

"It seems to me that these organizations sometimes use terminology that suggests this is a harm-avoidance option. But this, too, is treatment, not hospice," Pinsky said.

"If wet houses provide safety, comfort and some measure of respect for those with a serious illness, they may be the best choice for some."

Nick's story

After vodka ruined his career as a kitchen manager, Nick Lott found himself sleeping under a bridge -- or "sleeping under the stars," as he puts it.

"[I'd] get so drunk, it didn't matter," he says.

Then, five years ago, he made his way to the Glenwood, before moving to St. Anthony.

Nick Lott heads to the liquor store where he spends most of his monthly allotment of $89. "I know that must sound horrible to the taxpayers, but that's what it is," he says.

"My sister kind of pooh-poohed it, [she] thought, you know, 'Why would you move into a place like that when you know you have the problems that you have?' " Nick says. "But I think after awhile, they came to realize this was a pretty good thing.

"They would rather see me in a place like this than on the streets."

Nick had been in and out of detox centers "at least 100" times, sometimes just staying there for a shower and a place to sleep.

He doesn't like to talk about his past, but he readily takes responsibility for his situation.

"I regret a lot of decisions that I made. I really have nobody to blame for any of my misfortunes," he says. "It's because I drank and the way I drink ... If I didn't drink, I think, things could have been very different."

On April 1, the first Friday of the month, Nick gets his $89 check and cashes it. After a couple of purchases at Walmart, he spends the rest at a liquor store.

"A majority (of the $89) goes to drinking, and I know that must sound horrible to the taxpayers, but that's what it is," he says. "Maybe that's all there is left for me," he ponders, his voice trailing.

"And it only makes you feel good for maybe a day or two, and then the money runs out or, you know, the physical and then mental things start going on ... and it just makes things worse.

"But the few moments that it does make you feel good almost seem worth it."

His routine, like that of most chronic alcoholics, revolves around his next drink. And that, he says, makes it impossible to stay connected to his siblings who live in Nebraska and Minnesota.

"I don't see them very much. To be quite honest, I kind of avoid them," he says. "It's like, what do you talk about? 'Well what are you up to now, Nick?' 'Well, I live in a wet house, and I don't work. Nothing's going on with me.'"

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Nick says he still has a sliver of hope that he can turn his life around, when asked if he expects to spend the rest of his life at St. Anthony:

"Well, that just depends on how much time I have left," he says. "You know, people die here all the time. ... (There's) a possibility of not spending the rest of my time here, of maybe pulling myself up and making lifestyle changes."

Less than a month after that interview, Nick Lott died at the age of 52 -- a shock to those who knew him. St. Anthony officials did not have any details about his death, and his family could not be reached for comment.

His words captured the struggle that chronic alcoholics face every day:

"It gets to where you almost feel afraid to quit drinking because it's like sometimes, it just seems like that's all there is."

CNN's Tricia Escobedo reported from Atlanta and Chris Welch reported from St. Paul.