I'm actually surprised the thread lasted as long as it did... but after Carol and Company chopped it up, who knows how it ended? Sort of a funny reminder how some winded up here from time to time. I'd also like to make you aware that I was first directed to this topic from SR by none other than ST. So... it's a hot topic... one I think we are mature enough to discuss here. So, here goes;
The OP writes;
What does everyone think to this grassroots movement that seems to be happening in US to make people aware of as someone coined it 'the dark underbelly of AA' or as i would like to see it rougue individuals.
Does this flyer/poster seem alarmist and frighten people away, or does it raise important issues for newcomers as well as reminding longer term folk as well?
I know some groups have introduced wording into the start of the meeting about 13 stepping etc because people are worried about some of the things that have happened.
What are people's experiences in the past, is this new or has this been tried before? Have people seen other things happen on the ground or are there changes they would like to see?
So... a seemingly level-headed but proA.A.er says this,
Yeah I don't see any problem with individual meetings making a statement such as this. I can see why it has not been accepted by the GSO though, there is no message of recovery there, and it has nothing at all to do with AA as a program.
As far as 13th stepping... I don't get it, people get all up in arms about "Ohhh (s)he only has however much time, (s)he shouldn't be talking to them...." I've never understood this putting an arbitrary time stamp on new people, like after a year they are magically functional, after a year god suddenly removes the obsession? I had always been taught that I am only a newcomer until I've done the work and had a spiritual awakening. Sometimes this may occur in a week, sometimes in a year.
Also, why is the assumption that there is always distinct "victim" in these situations? Does this behavior not speak volumes to the state of both parties, that both are so desperate for a distraction, both more than willing to wrongly place their reliance upon another human that they mutually make the decision to do whatever feels good at the moment. Just because one hasn't had a drink for a while does not mean that they are healthy. And, to that end, the book is pretty clear on how to handle such people-as any other sick person.
In my experience, at least with the dudes, I pull them aside and pose this that type of question to them, especially if I notice that its a cyclic kinda behavior. Offer to help them do the work, again if necessary. Beyond that, its not my job to make sure these people are "safe". Its simply my job to carry a message to them, and yes, part of that message is that you cannot transmit something you haven't got, soooo if you haven't got it.... then stay away from the ladies.
Then the anti/XAers come back with allegations of the Midtown Group and Carol comes back with an admittedly nice take,
The MidTown allegations were investigated by the D.C. police
who declined to make arrest due to lack of evidence.
so please let's not get all tangled up with that.
The proAAer was given the final word before Dee boarded the thread up and sent the posters back up to bed without any porridge...
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, it sounds like you were in a really ****** position that never should have happened. Also sorry to hear you harbor such anger against a fellowship of people that had nothing to do with whatever happened instead of the individuals involved. If you were that 15 year old then police action hopefully was taken and you got your day in court. That kind of behavior should be stopped.
As far as being a dumping ground, you're right there are people in the rooms who likely are not alcoholics but get court ordered there. The unfortunate thing is, as you've seen on other threads here, there is no sure fire way to challenge these people and ask them to leave on that basis. Alcoholism is essentially a self diagnosis for the purposes of AA.
However, there are many who truly are alcoholics who happen to be sex offenders or other "low lifes" and there is no way we can or should prohibit these people from attending meetings. They are there for the same solution as the rest of us, they deserve the same shot at this thing as that "innocent" person walking in with a clean record.
Oh, and when it gets into breaking the law, then that is another issue. Then, there is something tangible where we as a society, outside and including the fellowship have come together to agree on a norm. And as such authorities should be contacted and people should be reported, just as if it was a youth sports league, school, etc.
But, the stereotypic "low life" "preying" on a new girl... sorry, he deserves his seat as much as she does if they are both alcoholic.
_______________________________________________
So, what's my take on the deal?
In A.A., we are a bunch of wretched sinners! I personally would like to encourage any lurker, AAer, potential AAer, etc. to go to an A.A. meeting and just observe. Before you judge your bretheren... which Jesus says you must do... but to do so carefully... look first at your own motive... your own life.
Judge not lest you be judged... but woe unto you hippocrite... that spites thy brother for the splinter in his eye... whilst not first removing the mote in thine own eye! ... or some such thing. I paraphrase!
I think the Carpenter rocks! I'm going to go to a meeting tonight and recite the Lord's Prayer extra loudly in His honor! I'm gonna say "Evil" extra fucking loudly for the pussy-fuck new-ageys who say "ego" or "self" or some such bullshit.
We humans are evil! We're evil every fucking time we avoid pain and suffering of looking at our own mortality and pathetic petty fucking lives and when we use our own mental abnormalities or whatever is handy to cast our guilt or pain out on another to avoid our own quest to not be uncomfortable.
If somebody propositions you and it's not welcomed, kick them in the fucking balls and scream "RAPE!"
What the fuck is so hard about that? If you don't want to be 13th Stepped , quit spreading your legs!
How fucking simple is this?
Same thing goes with your money. If someone tries to con you, walk away and or say "No!" or scream "Beggar Beggar Beggar!" and point to the offender!
I empower you, with my pompus arrogance. Or you can hang up the sign, but you need to first post the sign to your own fucking head! Your own motives start with you.
Do you want to go to this A.A. meeting or not? If so, why? Is it to preach your anti-Christian agenda? Is it to score? Are you lonely? Or is it because you might have "it" and want to help your fellow people? Or might it be because you're a real alky who doesn't know what you're gonna do to stay sober and you are honestly afraid to drink again because you don't yet have "it" and you might be vaguely aware that you cannot not drink booze left to your own devices?
_______________________________________
______________________________
Mopar tuneup pics
Some update pics on my Chryler. It's going back under the knife. Take note of the exhaust (front) valve for cylinder #5... how it sticks up a bit. Yup. Valve seat is shot and I'm getting a new valve job. This is why I was driving around on 7 cylinders. Not too shabby, but I'm looking forward to getting all 8 up and running again.
I made a comment to MA the other day on ST regarding his feeling that 99.9% of AA's ignore any misbehavior on the part of the other members. I think that's bullshit. That we have folks that prey on others, unfortunately, is unavoidable.
ReplyDeleteBut I think that you're gonna find more of that sort of thing in a divorce/recovery workshop than an AA meeting.
My own personal experience with such assholes has happened on 2 occasions, and both were handled quietly on the group level. One individual stated that there was no way we could stop him from coming into the rooms. I answered "Wanna bet?" He's disappeared.
And remember, there are 2 million of people who belong to AA, and even more who go to meetings that don't belong there. In any group that size you're gonna have dirtballs. But saying that since one member is a scumbag, therefore all members are scumbags is a lapse in logic.
Similarly, there are 56,000+ groups in the U.S., so focusing on one (the Midtown crowd), as the folks in ST are wont to do, ignores the other 56,000 groups who have little or no problems.
I like the handout, but think it should only be used when a problem might exist. Handing it out just to hand it out would be counterproductive and cause concern where none is warranted.
And yeah, Patrick, if someone acts inappropriately don't play the poor victim. Kick him in the nuts and tell him to back off. I'm sure that's what would have happened if the same two people were sitting in a bar.
"But I think that you're gonna find more of that sort of thing in a divorce/recovery workshop than an AA meeting."
ReplyDeleteShit, I wished I'd have known this after my divorce. I was lonely as fuck and could have used a little bit of "abuse" from the fairer sex. All I got from A.A. was a Keep Coming Back and a "Tawk to Yo-wer ponsor".
Here's the deal from my angle. The people in question tend to hang out at clubs. Unchecked clubs where anything goes and the only thing that resembles AA is the sign on the wall. I've heard it said on more than one occasion here that if I'm ever caught in a meeting at XXXXX Club you can assume I really needed a cup of coffee. That goes for any of the clubs we have in this area. If a struggling newcomer mentions that they go to XXXXX Club I'll tell them to stay the hell out of there if they have any desire to get sober.
ReplyDeleteThe real question is "Do I dare take another mans inventory"?
You bet your ass I do.
Next question. Do I want what this person has and am I willing to go to any length to get it?
If they're the reptilian type that hang out in clubs to hug, slogan and get a little pussy every now and then my answer is the same "No"
How do we tell folks that it may say AA on the door but it isn't. In fact I'll continue to spread the message that AA is AA and meetings are meetings. Truth be told only a small fraction of AA should take place in the confines of meetings. The rest should be practiced in all of our affairs.(seems I've heard that before somewhere)
Now! Let's talk Mopars Dog!
Agreed!
ReplyDeleteCheck out my tuneup pics at the end of this post. I got them from Summit and I've got a mechanic from Canon City putting this together. The cam should bring the torque down to the 2k-2500 rpm range.
Looks like a pretty fair combo. Most people make the mistake of going too big on cams and carbs. You'll like that carb. It's got some pretty snappy throttle response right out of the box. I had a 1406 on my Cuda and you would have thought it was a two stroke due to the crisp throttle. I'd probably still have it on there but it crapped out at around 7k Rpm give or take. From the looks of things you may need an adapter to get it to fit that manifold but that's no big deal. The more space between the carb and the manifold the better. So when is this going to be done? I'd like some feedback on this mod. I think you'll be somewhat surprised at what a cam change can do.
ReplyDeleteAs of late I've been spending a lot of time on the motorcycle. I think I've logged 3ooo miles in the last 6 weeks. It's possible Pueblo might be on my list of places to visit.
On another note my group got evicted from the Church. We were in a Catholic Church basement and the Archdiocese out of Denver evicted everyone from Catholic Churches due to liability and security. Blah, blah, blah. That group has been in that basement for 25 years and all of the sudden we get evicted without warning. Well two weeks anyways. Tonight will be the first meeting at the new place. Some Senior Center in Ault Colorado gave us a place to hold a meeting. I wish it would have been a Lutheran Church since it's only fitting when the Catholics are out of line the Lutherans will be there to pick up the slack.
And my group, which just got booted from a hospital, was turned down by the Lutherans but warmly welcomed by the Catholic Church down the street. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteThis deal was started by one of our friends over at ST, Massive Attack. She spent 36 years in AA before she realized it was a cult of sexual deviants and perverts. 36 years...If I was surrounded at all times by the types that ST think dominate AA, I would have walked long before that.
ReplyDeleteFundamentally I don't have an issue with this, I do wonder what the already freaked out newcomer would make of this. I have issue with anti's going to meetings to drop this off, but I suppose a well run group would have a group conscious before setting this literature out, I doubt the Anti's would stick around for that, I find most of them incredibly tedious.
Yeah, there are a bunch of sick puppies in AA, however, my experience is that the vast majority are harmless and mindless.
on the few occasions were I have seen a guy talking up a newcomer with ulterior motives they are called on it quickly and pretty much told to cut the shit or they will be hurt, maybe not so spiritual but it is effective.
One last thought, the true scumbags I have encountered in AA have no experience with the steps, probably just a coincidence.
36 years of sexual harassment? Ha!
ReplyDeleteIs she complaining or bragging?
Why the space between the garb and manifold? Also, does it need to be thermally isolated so the fuel is cooler?
ReplyDeleteLast I heard, Mark was determining whether my radiator was good or if it needed worked on. I gave him a couple hundred on Thursday and hope he makes some progress by this next Thursday.
I bought 4 wheel cylinders and some rear brake shoes as we have an issue with a leaky rear cylinder now.
Mark says we will play around with jets, rods, and rod tapers until we get it to my liking.
He says the 2 barrel we are taking off is actually too big and sluggish.
The space is for that very thing. It keeps the carb cooler because it's off the manifold. They sell a 1" phenolic spacer but the adapter you might need is good enough. If you don't need an adapter you'll be just fine without one too. It's not an absolute necessity. One of the nice things about the Edelbrock is the fact that you can change rods to get your mix right. It just takes a couple minutes as opposed to the Holley that some people run where the bowls have to come off and the jets have to be changed. It's kind of a pain but once set they're good to go. One common complaint about that carb is the bowl seems to go dry when they sit for too long. If you experience hard starting after it sits a week or so that's why.
ReplyDeleteAs to the subject at hand I find that the predators that come up all too often are the exception and the group over at ST have managed to run into all of them (so they say). I haven't seen a fraction of what is purported to be the rule according to them. In short it's a mole hill being turned into a mountain. I'm not making too many friends over at SR either. That's like a virtual clubhouse over there where they sling slogans and offer hugs and well wishes. I think my postings about the train wreck that was Amy Winehouse displayed too much insensitivity for Dee and he deleted my posts. What a pansy. It's no wonder there's people over there trying to get sober for 5 or better years with zero results. The truth is sugar coated and swept under the rug. They go out again and get all sorts of hugs when they come back.
Regarding Dee, I didn't agree with his brand of sobriety, but for some reason, we got along until I got the boot. He user to send me a lot of DMs late at night as he found out I was a night owl... this is when I was an unemployed bum.
ReplyDeleteI could imagine the exchanges with Amy Winehouse. I come from a culture of "drinking is unacceptable behavior for an alcoholic who has decided into A.A."
Now, in other recovery methods, that may be ok. But if you're going to raise your hand in our group, you're not going to hear what you might want to. Frank pointed to me and said, "slipper!" If somebody drinks, you don't follow them out. Whole groups drink... and nobody seems to notice or care.
Frank says we're like sheep. The ones who sit on the outside... outside of the circle... are the ones who get picked off by wolves and bear... they are the ones who get picked off by booze. He says, "If you want what I have, het your ass up here! Otherwise, bleed!" Then some lady from Tue back says, "Frankly, I DON'T want what you have." Then Frank says, "Good. I don't think you need it."
I would get kicked off of SR every day. I just can't do it. I'd be like, "Who gives a fuck if you have 7 days. Go have a cookie and sit down. Quit making new posts everytime you get a new day. You have 8 screen names and 7 days of sobriety."
Believe me. I have compassion for the chronic relapser. I was the fucking slipper here. But not anymore.
Then you've got threads titled, "Making amends to myself"
If a horse thief goes to AA and stops drinking, then what you have is a sober horse thief. AA has evolved (on average) into a organization that over specializes in not drinking to the exclusion of the high moral principles of the movement that lent it's spiritual ideals to AA.
ReplyDeleteColter
You know what I mean, people come into AA and continue to live much the same way they did while drinking.
ReplyDeleteI'm coming from the place of the A.A. program... and those who need this program of action in order to get and stay sober.
ReplyDeleteI'm starting to pursue the possibility of letting the sober horse thieves take care of their own... in those bad meetings... but to stand guard to pluck a few dying yet willing non-recovered real alcoholics from the ruins.
Now... if you want to talk about evil... and goodness for that matter... that's a subject that's been going on since prehistory.
ReplyDeleteTo say that predators are unique to A.A. is ridiculous. To say alcoholics are the source of predators is to bite the hand that feeds you... so to speak... for this would imply that we are the Original Sinner... and should all be cast out to some island of Hawaii.
One should ask the question... why is there evil in the world? Another and even better question might be to ask, "Why is there 'good' in the world?"
Well, what is evil? It's "Live" spelled backwards, right? It's that which needlessly kills or ends life for non-biological reasons, right? It can be the death of sentience, mobility, awareness, growth, autonomy and will. Observe a child for a while and see that they lie, cheat and steal... especially if they think you're not "observing". Now take that same child all grown up and observe them being a truthful, kind, productive member of society. One might even observe them of being "good". The later scenario is quite more interesting to me.
If a horse theif is a horse thief, it's because of one of two reasons; one, it works, and/or two, they don't yet see it as objectionable. Catch him or let him live with his own conscience long enough... and he may change.
A.A. is a definite conscience changer. That's been my experience.
If it wasn't for evil the good would be meaningless and go unnoticed.
ReplyDeleteWell that may be. I think if there was no evil, I'd be bored to shite.
ReplyDeleteHere we go... Science and philosophy tries to explain the nature of life... the universe, where we came from... where we're goin'... the meaning of life... etc.
Mythology is sort of the moral lesson scientific approach to religion... but still not religion. And in this day and age... it's not considered good science. Nowadays, science likes to take little tiny bite-size looks at what we might call truth... but when you get too close to a thing, you miss the big picture.
Now, religion has the tools to look at the whole picture... even more than the human mind can digest. But, no matter. It's still a very useful tool... if used proplerly. Too often it's not. Too often it's used and abused.
The Zen Ying-yang Bhuddist even new-age Christian Science such as Course of Miracles... sees evil and good as mere separate sides of the coin. There's good... then bad. There's growth... then decay. Seasons change.
But the fundamental Christian reaches out a bit further. Jesus said about Satan, "He was a murderer from the beginning." - John 8:44.
Evil is unnatural murder of body and/or spirit.
God says that evil is a cancer beyond His control. Surely He could reel it in... but herein lies the paradox of free will. Free will is not free. It is only a choice if you stand equidistant from evil and good... and perhaps for an instant, you have a choice. But if you choose good, you submit to something else.
Now good science... and good psychology should not take such a bite size approach. It should not leave any stone unturned. It must be willing to be open-minded to the supernatural... to the sacredness of life itself... to not be secular.
Now, if you want secular science... you can get it for a buck ten on any street corner. You can get it at Stinkin-Thinkin... Orange Papers.
But to me, evil is about a little more than the flip side of a coin.
To bring up the issue of evil, one must be willing to search for or at least aim at a "healing" of evil. Can one be healed of evil? If not, can one who is perpetrated on by evil, can they be healed?
To just look at evil for the sake of looking at evil is... well... evil. There's plenty of that to go around if need be. Go study the Holocaust if you must.
A.A. is mocked for surrendering... but it's a useful tool... it's also a state of consciousness. A.A. is mocked for forming a support group outside of one's bilogical family... as if a cult-like induction. But many times evil and or harm comes from the home... from our caretakers... from our spouses... friends, etc.
The same shit the anti/XAers bash A.A. for is much of what is done in psychotherapy... yet they hail those sciences as being all so secular. Not necessarily so.
We're taught to recognize, find, identify sources of evil, to isolate them, to choose what is objectionable and not, to be given the opportunity to judge our own... objectionableness... and to be given the freedom... to choose between evil and Good!
Wow! How fucking awful.
If A.A. is anything other than what I just described there, your A.A. is not like my A.A.