I have a theory that those who hate or bash A.A. or those who are in A.A. and don't have to work steps but get by on inventing ridiculous slogans are what my family calls three-beer-drinkers.
Do you know what a 3-beer drinker is? Buy one, spill one, give one away.
Showing posts with label hard drinkers. Show all posts
Showing posts with label hard drinkers. Show all posts
Saturday, June 6, 2009
Who Is Bad-Mouthing A.A.? Part III
AA Blog Part 3: the colored text is my responses to comments about AA
Posted 04-20-2009 at 01:45 PM by McGowdog
The following is my interpretation of the AA program as experienced by doing the work out of the book from page 164 and prior. I do not speak for AA, due to its own traditions.
The younger a person starts to drink, the more he/she is likely to drink, the greater the likelihood he/she will become dependent on alcohol. The older a person is before he/she drinks, the less likely they will become dependent. No.
Fear is a tremendous motivator. No it's not. But you're getting the idea. Pain is a tremendous motivator.
Drug misuse is not a disease, it is a decision, like the decision to step out in front of a moving car. You would call that not a disease but an error in judgement. Read the Jay Walker story on pages 37 and 38, then substitute jay walking with alcohol. It makes a bunch of sense to describe the MENTAL OBSESSION.
Next?
Posted 04-20-2009 at 01:45 PM by McGowdog
The following is my interpretation of the AA program as experienced by doing the work out of the book from page 164 and prior. I do not speak for AA, due to its own traditions.
The younger a person starts to drink, the more he/she is likely to drink, the greater the likelihood he/she will become dependent on alcohol. The older a person is before he/she drinks, the less likely they will become dependent. No.
Fear is a tremendous motivator. No it's not. But you're getting the idea. Pain is a tremendous motivator.
Drug misuse is not a disease, it is a decision, like the decision to step out in front of a moving car. You would call that not a disease but an error in judgement. Read the Jay Walker story on pages 37 and 38, then substitute jay walking with alcohol. It makes a bunch of sense to describe the MENTAL OBSESSION.
Next?
Who's Bad-Mouthing A.A. Part II
AA Blog part 2: the colored text is my responses to comments about AA Posted 04-20-2009 at 01:44 PM by McGowdog
The following is my interpretation of the AA program as experienced by doing the work out of the book from page 164 and prior. I do not speak for AA, due to its own traditions.
I postulate that it's NOT a disease because if someone comes from a family of alcoholics and does not drink, they don't become an alcoholic. You MUST START DRINKING to become an alcoholic. Last time I checked, consuming alcohol was a voluntary act. A.A. never said it was a disease. Teetotalers or potential hard drinkers! I'm a potential cancer patient so I choose to not smoke cigarettes! Do I get a cookie?!
Nope. I think it's stupid to get trashed, and idiotic to get trashed to the point of blackout. I don't do it, never did, never will. Well good for you! I choose to not get AIDS, Cancer, Diabetes, Obesity, Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimers, MS, etc. I don't do it, never did, never will! Shame on you sick people!
I'm sorry, but you have direct personal control over whether or not you put the bottle or the cigarette to your lips. It may take lots of willpower to overcome the urge to indulge in the addictive chemical, but the truth is that addictive chemicals do not go into your body by themselves. You have to put them in. You have direct personal control over this. I don't know about this. It goes contrary to my experience; maybe not yours, but mine. Oh, I know! The Devil made me do it! Shame on me!
We've known about the addictive properties of alcohol for who knows how long... over a century, I'd imagine. This is not even in the ball park. When ever you start a sentence with "We've known about..., it should contain fact.
It's a matter of using one's brain in a wise fashion. Oh, I love this one. So no smart or wise people suffer alcoholism or addiction. There's never been a architect or an airline pilot or a Big Corporation CEO or a Scientist or an etc. that been afflicted? That's a brilliant deduction. How about moral and richeous people? No priests or ministers or rabbis or Born-Agains have lost control of their booze or cocaine? Hmmm!
Not everything. For example, I caught chicken pox at age 9 and I didn't want that at all. However, nobody ever consumes alcohol as a result of anything else but their own free will. When was the last time you ever heard of an unwilling person getting alcohol shoved down his/her throat? More brilliant logic! I'd like to challenge you to a game of Sudoku.
What they DO do is ignore everyone's warnings about how usage of these addictive chemicals can lead to such lifestyles. Nobody who never took drugs ever became addicted to drugs. As far as being a prostitute... I know there is sex slavery in this country but most prostitutes are prostitutes out of their own free will. That is the way in which they choose to make their money. And if they do so because it's the only way they can feed their drug habits, see what I wrote above about how nobody who never took drugs got addicted to them. This is like the perfect continuous loop of brilliance here! This is good stuff!
If a person NEVER drinks, there is absolutely zero chance of that person becoming an alcoholic. The dangers of alcohol consumption are known to kids from a very early age. Good grief, they teach you about that stuff starting from like 2nd grade with "just say no" programs! If people would "just say no", there'd be no drug/alcohol/tobacco addicts! =)
So what you're saying is that if they had known that it WOULD happen to them, rather than adopting the traditional teenager attitude of "awwww, that'll never happen to ME", they wouldn't have started drinking? What would've been so bad about TRUSTING the people who told them "it could happen to you too"? My main problem with trying to "think through the drink" is that you're trying to fix a damaged mind with a damaged mind. It's something that is physical... allergy coupled with mental... obsession-I can handle it now, just watch me!
No teenager takes that first puff or that first drink TOTALLY unaware of the ills that those things can cause. They all just believe that "it'll never happen to them", and they'll be able to smoke only when they choose to or drink only when they choose to... so they'll never get addicted... right. What? I was going to fully respond, but your reply is so loaded with irrational emotion, twisting of my words, personal attacks and general gibberish that you've made it clear attempting any discussion with you about this is pointless. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes. Oh, well I'm not the only one calling for more order in here!
the truth is that addictive chemicals do not go into your body by themselves. This one just gives me heartburn.
It sounds like the question we're all skirting around is whether alcoholism is a failure of the will or a physical disease. Sorry but a half-truth is not the truth or a lie. Alcoholism IS a physical craving coupled with a mental obsession. It's always both.
But I have a hard time getting around this: going to groups won't keep you from dying of cancer. It can, however, keep you from dying of alcohol. Nobody picks up a bottle and drinks up a dose of lupus. But lots of people cheerfully choose to drink alcohol. How do you know going to groups doesn't keep you from dying of cancer? It's worth a try, at least for the quality of life and getting out of your own head and helping another, which in turn my help you recover and/or receive a miracle. It can, however keep you from dying of alcohol. No guarantee there! If you're not an alky, sure! If you are, you'd better do steps too. But lots of people cheerfully choose to drink alcohol; yes, like non-alkies. Most alkies are baffled, especially in later stages of the ... allergy.
I agree with you. Do any of us enjoy being enslaved/addicted to our cars? Physically, we're too lazy to substitute that addiction for a healthier addicition to a bicycle, walking to the nearest bus stop, or merely walking to where we're going. I don't even know what to say about this; addicted to cars? Do you write George W. Bush speeches or something?
Some people turn to alcohol because of stress, depression, or anxiety. Maybe true. But it ain't alcoholics. No one is forcing you to drink, smoke, eat, steal that. Do you want to go back and talk about Absolutes? There is a time to steal! There is a time to Kill! There is a time to beg! Show me the person without sin, then we'll talk about absolutes!
I am not an alcoholic myself, but I'd imagine that it's very easy to get sucked into alcoholism when life simply isn't going your way. Well I thank you for the compassion, but no. You CAN'T imagine. I can't imagine what an AIDS patient thinks/does.
People abuse it because it's there and because it's cheap. Be honest now; not just alkies abuse alcohol, right? Bums are NOT alcoholics, they're bums! They are bums because there are benefits to it. Any good alcoholic has a gift or a knack for rebuilding their live up, just to tear it down! A bum never rebuilds anything because they don't have to! Anybody can be a bum! Only an alky can be an alky!
Alcoholism is a family affair. Drunks drink for the effect. Drunks do not care about anything or anyone except the next drink. Drunks donot care if the bills area paid, or if the family has enough food. They only care about the next drink. Drunks do not understand what they do to their children when they are drunk. The do not understand the embarassment and emotional pain they inflict on their families. They do not care. They want that fix, that next drink.. Genetics are only part of it, otherwise whole races would have died off by now. Alcoholics DO care. They rise remorseful and baffled. Some even kill themselves instead of drink! Who ever said an alcoholic has to drink alcohol to die an alcoholic death!???
Who is bad-mouthing A.A.?
AA Blog Part 1: the colored text is my responses to comments about AA
Posted 04-20-2009 at 01:40 PM by McGowdog Updated 04-20-2009 at 01:49 PM by McGowdog (add)
The following is my interpretation of the AA program as experienced by doing the work out of the book from page 164 and prior. I do not speak for AA, due to its own traditions.
Who is bad-mouthing AA? Well let's look at everything that's been said about the problem and misunderstanding of alcholism and the realm of AA in general:
Alcoholism is self-inflicted. Then nobody is nor were they ever powerless physically, mentally, nor spiritually over the stuff.
Drugs are a choice and abuse is a habit. Drugs become sort of a not choice. You can suffer enough to want to quit, then go cold turkey and with constant dilligence and maybe medical treatment and/or isolation, kick the habit... but down the road you may want to use that drug again. What's to stop you? Your brain? How's that working?
Since it's a choice to start drinking in the first place, Wait a minute, how sure are you about this? Are you willing to bet your life on this statement? I'm not! it's a choice throughout regardless of who you are. If I can refrain, so can you ... So can I choose to drink like a gentleman like you? Some people can! do they have to choose not to drink? No, they don't! So are we the same? You want to put some money down on that?
If alcoholism/addiction were truly a disease or whateveryouwanttocallit, people would never recover. What about God? Oh, I'm sorry. Wrong subforum!
Since I'm have alcoholic parents, I abstain myself, so I speak for everybody in saying it's a choice. So both my parents are Democrats. I abstain myself, so I speak for everybody in saying it's a choice. Same logic? Fitting for the topic?
I believe alcoholism is NOT a disease. I agree So do I. Don't call it a disease. Send them to AA. But the docs, nurses, counsellors, judges, cops, morticians etc. ain't gonna be happy!
I agree there are cravings, but after that it's just bad choices. So after the second time someone gets drunk, they can just either decide to only drink two and stop OR decide to never drink booze again!? How's that working?
It's insulting to people who have "Real" diseases to label this one. Right! The people with the REAL diseases are ENTITLED TO THEIR PAIN!!!!!!! Did I say that out loud?
The problem with 12-step programs is that even those programs don't make the person take responsibility for their actions. Of course they don't! Just see my 12 step program and my 13 step program in the Health and Wellness subforum thread.
I put myself in the hands of a "higher power" kind of mantra they use. Well no, it's the experience of 99 God-Fearing sober and recovered alcoholics and 1 sober recovered athiest. Oh, you didn't know you could be an Athiest AND STILL GET SOBER?????????! Well ain't that special?
they should say "It's my fault I'm in this position but I myself have the power to get clean..." If you can do that, great. Hats off to ya! But if that don't work look us up. We're near the beginning of the phone book.
So basically, AA is flawed because of the God experiment. It worked fine for 100. They put together a book stating exactly what they did. The experiment is one alky with a desire to stop drinking for good and all. A business deal fell through. He was on the road and saw some people having fun in a bar. He decided to call a ministry and ask if there was another drunk he could talk to. They met. One had knowledge of the spiritual program. One had the knowledge of the Problem. They were able to help each other stay sober for a day so, they realized they had to try it out on another. It worked once they plugged the Problem into the Solution. I'd say God is anything but an "experiment". If anything, we are the experiment!
It's just a matter of being motivated enough to find something you can do. Motivation!
I like Rational Recovery best of all. They've shrunk down from ten steps to one, which reads: "STOP DRINKING AND DRUGGING, YOU BIG JERK!" Rational Recovery! Life Ring! SMART! Perfect! Great for non alcoholic hard drinkers, from what I hear from a local Alcohol/Drug counselor. Asked him about Secular recovery too. He said, "All they do is sit around and bitch about A.A. Perfect! Check out my meeting sometime and you'll find somebody who doesn't mind working with "chronic relapsers". If you're not alky, heres a trick that will save you a bunch of time and cash; just decide to not get drunk or to not drink booze! But if you're a real alky, how's that working?
Bullcrap. It's your fault, get over it and fix your problems. My grandpa quit drinking, my parents quit smoking and my sister quit doing drugs. I'm around drugs and alcohol ALL THE TIME and I'm still sober. Simple. Take personal responsibility and quit blaming on other things. ?? Have you considered alanon? or ACA? Or how about Alatot?
So I guess being problem-free leads to sobriety? Yeah! I wonder that too. I'm NOT problem-free and I'm sober as a judge!
"It's not my fault I drink myself silly every day." um yeah, it is. Sorry if things are rough, but nobody forced that bottle to your mouth. There it is again! I thought this invisible pusher was getting me drunk! So I guess, guilting and remorsing the alcoholic and reminding them that nobody shoved the bottle into their mouth is good to do. We love that stuff!
Its a habit the same as smoking. I got a DUT the other day. Driving Under the Influence of Tabacco.
IMO... I'm sorry, but why seek opinion when we've got experience?
IMHO Well thank Goodness you didn't hit us up with IMDO!
The reason many do it is they frankly like it ;just like smoking. Well I'll drink to that!
The reason they do it is because.... - E.F. Hutton Tell us more! We're listening! Most alkies don't know why they drink! We're so glad to finally find out why!
and if you find yourself in a bad situation with an Alcoholic/Drug Addict who IS SICK, and refuses to get help then walk away. The Alanon program has been going for quite a while. I wonder what they'd say about this. I think it's a deeper issue than just "walk away". Heart is in the right place, but goes contrary to peoples' experience on this Walk away for sure! Why did you spread your legs in the first place?
I think after 34 yrs of drinking large amounts of alcohol I would know something about it. Only 2 things distinguish the alky from the non-alky; time ain't one of them. The Real Alcoholic may NEVER become a continuous hard drinker. You may think you're helping the cause of addiction/alcoholism, but ask yourself; am I a normal drinker, a moderate drinker, a teetotaler, a hard drinker, or am I a Read Alcoholic?
I was a full fledged Alcoholic and could never drink again cause it would kill me. Now once you go to a good AA meeting, they'll give you the dignity to take your own first step. Come to your own conclusion. How did you honestly drink? Did you ever drink against your own will? Could you control the amount once you started? Did you lie about and hide your drinking? On your own power, could you stay stopped for something like a year or more? Once you started again, could you drink 2 and stop, on a consistence basis?
...and was told to start smoking cigerettes (sp) cause it was safer. ...
I quit cold turkey 2 yrs ago because of meds I take, pain killers, for my disability, made me very uncomfortable and just decided not to drink.There ya go! Given a sufficient reason, so you stopped! Wonderful! You're a hard-drinker! Not an alcoholic.
So now I don't smoke 4/pk a day or drink 12/pk a day for better health and now I am disabled and morbidly obese. Well hang in there. Hope you can eat more healthy and get some safe excercise.
Most alchys from what I have seen cannot face anything in life unless innibriated. It is also in the genes. Passed down, or is this just another excuse? I wonder sometimes.... Well maybe it is just an excuse. They need an excuse because they're trying to control a behavior that they can't control. If they could control it, they would either not get drunk or just not drink! This is the same question alkies and observers of alkies have noticed for over 7000 years!
I have no idea who Roy Tarpley is, nor do I wish to defend his behaviour, but isn't it a known fact that 'successful' professional star athletes (and other performers) work under tons of pressure? So which is it? Alcoholism is a matter of external circumstances or it's not? Pick one? If they can't make a living, they have to starve and sniff glue? But if they're rich millionares, they have too much pressure? What!?!
I wouldn't find it strange that these people often turn to drugs because they can't handle the pressure of their job and/ or the pressure of being a public figure. Oh, so there again, we find a reason for its cause. Every public figure who has pressure is an alcoholic/addict and needs a way to deal?
Cocaine doesn't have a large physical component to the addiction, it's more mental, but it is notoriously hard to kick. Really? Is this a fact?
While caffiene and nicotine do have a rather large physical compentent, but are comparably easier to quit. Really? Is this a fact?
Posted 04-20-2009 at 01:40 PM by McGowdog Updated 04-20-2009 at 01:49 PM by McGowdog (add)
The following is my interpretation of the AA program as experienced by doing the work out of the book from page 164 and prior. I do not speak for AA, due to its own traditions.
Who is bad-mouthing AA? Well let's look at everything that's been said about the problem and misunderstanding of alcholism and the realm of AA in general:
Alcoholism is self-inflicted. Then nobody is nor were they ever powerless physically, mentally, nor spiritually over the stuff.
Drugs are a choice and abuse is a habit. Drugs become sort of a not choice. You can suffer enough to want to quit, then go cold turkey and with constant dilligence and maybe medical treatment and/or isolation, kick the habit... but down the road you may want to use that drug again. What's to stop you? Your brain? How's that working?
Since it's a choice to start drinking in the first place, Wait a minute, how sure are you about this? Are you willing to bet your life on this statement? I'm not! it's a choice throughout regardless of who you are. If I can refrain, so can you ... So can I choose to drink like a gentleman like you? Some people can! do they have to choose not to drink? No, they don't! So are we the same? You want to put some money down on that?
If alcoholism/addiction were truly a disease or whateveryouwanttocallit, people would never recover. What about God? Oh, I'm sorry. Wrong subforum!
Since I'm have alcoholic parents, I abstain myself, so I speak for everybody in saying it's a choice. So both my parents are Democrats. I abstain myself, so I speak for everybody in saying it's a choice. Same logic? Fitting for the topic?
I believe alcoholism is NOT a disease. I agree So do I. Don't call it a disease. Send them to AA. But the docs, nurses, counsellors, judges, cops, morticians etc. ain't gonna be happy!
I agree there are cravings, but after that it's just bad choices. So after the second time someone gets drunk, they can just either decide to only drink two and stop OR decide to never drink booze again!? How's that working?
It's insulting to people who have "Real" diseases to label this one. Right! The people with the REAL diseases are ENTITLED TO THEIR PAIN!!!!!!! Did I say that out loud?
The problem with 12-step programs is that even those programs don't make the person take responsibility for their actions. Of course they don't! Just see my 12 step program and my 13 step program in the Health and Wellness subforum thread.
I put myself in the hands of a "higher power" kind of mantra they use. Well no, it's the experience of 99 God-Fearing sober and recovered alcoholics and 1 sober recovered athiest. Oh, you didn't know you could be an Athiest AND STILL GET SOBER?????????! Well ain't that special?
they should say "It's my fault I'm in this position but I myself have the power to get clean..." If you can do that, great. Hats off to ya! But if that don't work look us up. We're near the beginning of the phone book.
So basically, AA is flawed because of the God experiment. It worked fine for 100. They put together a book stating exactly what they did. The experiment is one alky with a desire to stop drinking for good and all. A business deal fell through. He was on the road and saw some people having fun in a bar. He decided to call a ministry and ask if there was another drunk he could talk to. They met. One had knowledge of the spiritual program. One had the knowledge of the Problem. They were able to help each other stay sober for a day so, they realized they had to try it out on another. It worked once they plugged the Problem into the Solution. I'd say God is anything but an "experiment". If anything, we are the experiment!
It's just a matter of being motivated enough to find something you can do. Motivation!
I like Rational Recovery best of all. They've shrunk down from ten steps to one, which reads: "STOP DRINKING AND DRUGGING, YOU BIG JERK!" Rational Recovery! Life Ring! SMART! Perfect! Great for non alcoholic hard drinkers, from what I hear from a local Alcohol/Drug counselor. Asked him about Secular recovery too. He said, "All they do is sit around and bitch about A.A. Perfect! Check out my meeting sometime and you'll find somebody who doesn't mind working with "chronic relapsers". If you're not alky, heres a trick that will save you a bunch of time and cash; just decide to not get drunk or to not drink booze! But if you're a real alky, how's that working?
Bullcrap. It's your fault, get over it and fix your problems. My grandpa quit drinking, my parents quit smoking and my sister quit doing drugs. I'm around drugs and alcohol ALL THE TIME and I'm still sober. Simple. Take personal responsibility and quit blaming on other things. ?? Have you considered alanon? or ACA? Or how about Alatot?
So I guess being problem-free leads to sobriety? Yeah! I wonder that too. I'm NOT problem-free and I'm sober as a judge!
"It's not my fault I drink myself silly every day." um yeah, it is. Sorry if things are rough, but nobody forced that bottle to your mouth. There it is again! I thought this invisible pusher was getting me drunk! So I guess, guilting and remorsing the alcoholic and reminding them that nobody shoved the bottle into their mouth is good to do. We love that stuff!
Its a habit the same as smoking. I got a DUT the other day. Driving Under the Influence of Tabacco.
IMO... I'm sorry, but why seek opinion when we've got experience?
IMHO Well thank Goodness you didn't hit us up with IMDO!
The reason many do it is they frankly like it ;just like smoking. Well I'll drink to that!
The reason they do it is because.... - E.F. Hutton Tell us more! We're listening! Most alkies don't know why they drink! We're so glad to finally find out why!
and if you find yourself in a bad situation with an Alcoholic/Drug Addict who IS SICK, and refuses to get help then walk away. The Alanon program has been going for quite a while. I wonder what they'd say about this. I think it's a deeper issue than just "walk away". Heart is in the right place, but goes contrary to peoples' experience on this Walk away for sure! Why did you spread your legs in the first place?
I think after 34 yrs of drinking large amounts of alcohol I would know something about it. Only 2 things distinguish the alky from the non-alky; time ain't one of them. The Real Alcoholic may NEVER become a continuous hard drinker. You may think you're helping the cause of addiction/alcoholism, but ask yourself; am I a normal drinker, a moderate drinker, a teetotaler, a hard drinker, or am I a Read Alcoholic?
I was a full fledged Alcoholic and could never drink again cause it would kill me. Now once you go to a good AA meeting, they'll give you the dignity to take your own first step. Come to your own conclusion. How did you honestly drink? Did you ever drink against your own will? Could you control the amount once you started? Did you lie about and hide your drinking? On your own power, could you stay stopped for something like a year or more? Once you started again, could you drink 2 and stop, on a consistence basis?
...and was told to start smoking cigerettes (sp) cause it was safer. ...
I quit cold turkey 2 yrs ago because of meds I take, pain killers, for my disability, made me very uncomfortable and just decided not to drink.There ya go! Given a sufficient reason, so you stopped! Wonderful! You're a hard-drinker! Not an alcoholic.
So now I don't smoke 4/pk a day or drink 12/pk a day for better health and now I am disabled and morbidly obese. Well hang in there. Hope you can eat more healthy and get some safe excercise.
Most alchys from what I have seen cannot face anything in life unless innibriated. It is also in the genes. Passed down, or is this just another excuse? I wonder sometimes.... Well maybe it is just an excuse. They need an excuse because they're trying to control a behavior that they can't control. If they could control it, they would either not get drunk or just not drink! This is the same question alkies and observers of alkies have noticed for over 7000 years!
I have no idea who Roy Tarpley is, nor do I wish to defend his behaviour, but isn't it a known fact that 'successful' professional star athletes (and other performers) work under tons of pressure? So which is it? Alcoholism is a matter of external circumstances or it's not? Pick one? If they can't make a living, they have to starve and sniff glue? But if they're rich millionares, they have too much pressure? What!?!
I wouldn't find it strange that these people often turn to drugs because they can't handle the pressure of their job and/ or the pressure of being a public figure. Oh, so there again, we find a reason for its cause. Every public figure who has pressure is an alcoholic/addict and needs a way to deal?
Cocaine doesn't have a large physical component to the addiction, it's more mental, but it is notoriously hard to kick. Really? Is this a fact?
While caffiene and nicotine do have a rather large physical compentent, but are comparably easier to quit. Really? Is this a fact?
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