Know how to piss off an Anti/XAer?

Just tell em' that only real alkies can recover from alcoholism.

Tell them that only non-alkies can "Just don't drink, no matter what!"

Tell them that real alkies "Just drink, no matter what!"

Tell them that A.A. makes non-alkies worse/crazier.  Actually, that also pisses off the hard drinkers and lonely scragglers socialized in A.A. who make the fellowship their life even though they have no business being there.

Tell the 12 x 12 book thumpers that there's a difference between "recovering control", which no alcoholic ever does, and being RECOVERED from alcoholism, which every alcoholic who knows their condition, does steps, and comes out the other side... does.

Then tell them this... The A.A. program, as outlined in the A.A. book's program of action, is sufficient for recovery from alcoholism for the "real" alcoholic.  Oh, actually, this must be true, because it reconciles with my experience.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

Alcoholism... Disease or Behavioral Habit?

The more I listen to what the DC (Disease Concept) people have to say about the issue, the more I agree with them.

The more I listen to the DC critics, the more I think they're just a bunch of h8ers... aka anti/XAers.

I disagree with some of the precepts of the DC and how they are presented. Bill Wilson, would be a critic of the disease concept, but wouldn't go so far as to make these claims made by DC critics;

• Drinking for the alcoholic is a choice
• The term "alcoholic" is bullshit to begin with
• Anybody can quit drinking by just stopping and it's safer to moderate for most drinkers
• A.A. is a religious cult and is scientifically indefensible
• DC advocates strip the alcohol abuser of responsibility and freedom
• The DC model does not work and is harmful for hard drinkers and communities
• DC misappropriates public resources in the area of research
• There is no physical component to chronic drinking but is rather a symptom of an underlying emotional disorder or a failed attempt at self-cure of that disorder.
• Alcoholism and addiction do not exist but are empty words used by well-intentioned but misguided people to medicalize socially deviant behavior.
• The behavior of excessive drinking can, over time, become a deeply engrained habit, like smoking. But like smoking, one can just quit. Most problem drinkers "mature out" and quit on their own.
• The focus should be on finding a way to alter the drinking behavior that becomes socially harmful.
• The concepts of craving and loss of control of drinking lack scientific credence, so they are also empy words. Craving is merely memory and loss of control is learned and can merely be discarded. Moderated patterns of use can be relearned.
• Treatment is a failed social experiment that has turned into a multibillion dollar fraud. "Most alcoholics recover because they heal themselves."
• 12 Step groups are little more than religious cults. Coercing someone to A.A. is a violation of human rights and professional ethics.
• The disease concept has taken freedom and responsibility from the individual and replaced it with professional power and governmental coercion.
• The stigma of alcoholism needs to be increased and any effort to reduce it does a disservice to the alcoholic *(even though there is no such word) by reducing pressures to moderate consumption and could have the additional unintended effect of increasing the prevalence of addiction.

I, like Bill W., don't like the word disease as it relates to the behaviors of the alcoholic. But some of the claims by the DC critics sound like they are coming up against the Alcoholism Industry... rather than the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. But some of these claims are in direct opposition to what Alcholics Anonymous proclaims.

I will try to respond to some of these claims with my personal experience and interpretation of my own... personal experiences in the utilization of Alcoholics Anonymous as an alcohol abstinence and spiritual program and recovery method;

• Drinking booze for me is not a choice. That is a fact for me and one that pisses off not-like-minded- nor like-experienced people for some reason. Here are some other terms that get their goat for some reason; real alcoholic, recovered alcoholic.
• Alcoholic very well describes me. You could say that I drank with little regard for myself and others from the get-go, despite consequences of my personal health, freedoms, success in life, ability to socialize and fit in to society in the short and long term, etc. This is totally inconsistent with my behavior in most all other matters. I didn't want to be a pubic failure nor a risk to my personal well being and standing in the community, much less a risk to those around me... until I started to drink.
• Anybody can quit drinking and it's safer to moderate? Speak for your damned self. Why don't they offer Schlitz Malt Liquor in prison btw? Another yummy topic for another day. Go to bed with a Schlitz, wake up with the Schitz.
• A.A. is a religious cult blahblahblah? Not so fast, skippy. I didn't go to a meeting today and nobody missed me. I sort of wanted to go, but have work to do. I cannot afford the luxury to go just for the heck of it. I'd like to have gone for mere social reasons, but don't need a meeting today. I do have a report to get done and I'll finish it today on time... while writing this piece as well. So take your "cult" claim back to your own cult-ridden den and observe your own anti/XAer tendencies. What are you thinking about today besides how much you hate A.A. and proAAers? See, dickhead? Who's the victim of the cult now?
• Some of the most extreme DC advocates may want to show a bit of compassion for us, but how can somebody strip me of responsibility and freedom? How exactly? I've been sober 6.5+ years and am now going through my 7th set of steps sober. How exactly does the belief in a disease concept strip me of responsibility? Do people from Disease Concept Central call me daily and guilt me into going to a meeting? Do they get their frothy emotional appeal on my collar? Do they pat me on the back and say, "There there McGowdoggie... it's gonna be ok. You just sit down and have a nice banana split. DCC is gonna take care of you today. You just go to meetings and call us when you get out." You dickheads wouldn't know a 3rd Step if it slapped you in the puss. We DO appeal to God to take away our difficulties. We DO appeal to God to guide our lives. But that doesn't mean that we are not responsible for doing steps and fitting ourselves to be useful and whole in the society about us... in more ways than you would ever give us credit. This is an obvious knock to the A.A. program and a poorly conceived one at that.
• You take care of the hard drinkers and give A.A. a shot at the alcoholic. If those who are lead to A.A. are given the dignity to find out for themselves whether they belong or not and if they're willing to do the 12 proposals in their entirety, we can approach and surpass the 36% recovery rate that A.A. enjoys. That's right. Loran Archer cancels out Agent Orange and all you anti/XAer dorks with your spontaneous remission bullshit. The 64% of failures must be non-alcoholics or alcoholics who aren't done drinking yet.*
• Misappropriations of public resources may be something the DC community is guilty of, but not near as guilty as you anti/XA hacks. A.A. is exempt from this discussion due to its own traditions and non-control of the treatment community. That's right. If A.A. had control of the treatment facilities, it would look something like the program of recovery as outlined in the A.A. book and it's no where near that. A.A. oriented treatment is what you would call "empty words". If treatment did their job, they'd release the problem drinkers after they detoxed and sent them on their way to the recovery of their choice, be it A.A., RR, LF, SMART, MM, or whatever recovery they want. I'm getting off topic to the mention of treatment methods here, but there's plenty of DC advocates that have done wonderful research and you anti/XAers would just dispell it as bunk out of one side of your mealy-mouths, while blathering on and on about how nobody in the A.A. cult will hear your loud and inane claims for your treatment method, "Not-A.A.". Meanwhile, those DC Advocates merely verify what they have been saying in the 164 of the A.A. book since 1939.
• No physical component? My own experience debunks that myth. How about yours? Tell me about YOUR drinking for a minute. And yes, I will by using MY definition of alcoholic, thankyouverymuch. Since I am one, I'm fucking qualified. Fuckin' A right.
• Medicalize socially deviant behavior? Well whatever works for you... do it. I'll do it my way. You take the high road and I'll take the low road. I've solved the drink problem and the "socially deviant behavior" problem... and the "Disease Concept" pro nor con didn't weigh in the method that got me there. If you want to argue for the sake of argument, call it what ever the hell you want to. Get back to me when you've tried to help a drunk by merely showing them what you yourself do.
• Alcoholism is like smoking? Stick your cigarette up your ass. The grown-ups are talking about booze now. Here's a penny. Now go pound it into a dollar and go play on the freeway.
• You want to alter drinking behavior? Good luck with that. How's Audrey Kishline doin' these days? How'd that work for her? Oh, that's right. Blame her behavior on A.A., when it suits your claim. She had no illusions whatsoever that she could ever moderate and control her drinking, and she can drive well at 0.26. She was never a member, much less a founder, of a program that condones "Moderation Management", aka MM, A.A. forces you to drive to meetings when you're drunk. A woman can do most anything at 0.26. That's not even a buzz for a battleaxe like her, right? Being over 3 times the state limit for DUI is not her decision because A.A., er... Bill W... er... somebody who advocates A.A. said it's a disease and she's neither responsible nor does she have the freedom to choose whether to drive or not. BTW, was she headed to an A.A. meeting when she killed that poor guy and his 12 year old daughter? What does Stanton Peele say about this? He never advocated moderation for those in alcoholism recovery, right? Anything, so long as it's not A.A. That A.A. will make your drinking worse.*
• Concept of craving lacks scientific credence. What does Wiki say about the Disease theory of alcoholism these days? What does Wiki say about A.A. these days? Hmmm... it's good to hear both sides of the issue once in a while. My experience says that once I start, I cannot predict the outcome, unless I planned on getting trashed and destructive on the front end. I do that sometimes. I like to get drunk and fuck things up... sometimes. Not always. I'm very good at it, btw. Tell me about your experience with cravings now. I'm listening...
• Treatment is a failed social experiment. Amen to that, brotha. Most alcoholics recover because they heal themselves? Hmmm... I have an opinion about that one.
• 12 Steps are cults? Hmmm... maybe some of them. The ones you go to. Not the ones I go to. Bitch. Coercing someone to A.A. is a violation of their human rights and professional ethics. Amen to that, brotha. I went to A.A. because I thought it was a good idea. It was my goal coming out of high school and college. I graduated 3rd in my hs class. Had I graduated 2nd or 1st, I'd have included it into my Valedictorian or Salutatorian Speech; I want to become a member of Alcoholics Anonymous and I'm well on my way... just 7 more months and my goal will become complete! Yay to me! Fuck you all and die! Stupid dickheads. I didn't want to go to A.A. nor do A.A. But I did it and I stopped getting harassed by the professional community and the court systems. I don't even see Probation Officers anymore... for the purpose of fullfilling my legal obligations... er Violations of my Human fucking Rights! Professional ethics! You punished those poor alcoholics to seek help! You should be ashamed and disbarred!
• Disease concept = government coersion! Oh, the government that you voted into office? Go have a fucking drink. Have a martini and a Red Bull.
• The alcoholic, of which there's no such word, needs more stigma. Engrave the A letter to their forehead! A for AAnarcy, AAsshole, AAssoholic, AAssinine, AAntimony, etc.

*You anti/XAer dickheads. The alcoholics' prognosis gets better, not worse (see his August 30, 2010 article), when they drink more and crash harder. You got it ass-fucking-backwards. Moderate your drinking though. Get down. I support you on your drinking. Drink away. Drink em if you got em. I'll buy you your first one. But if you don't drink it, I'll make sure you at least wear it.

Where are those abused in A.A. to go?

FTG: Based on what I see in the list of search terms that people use to find our blog, I know that our visitors are righteously pissed off about their experiences in AA. And those are precisely the people we’re here for. They are why we created this blog. But, there’s no censorship on Stinkin’ Thinkin (unless you pull a McGowdog and cut/paste the same 3 words over and over again for a half an hour straight and then hit “post” when you get a hand cramp – in which case we will probably just edit you down a bit so that people can get the gist of your argument without having to take a nap on the scroll button. McGowdog might hate our guts, but it’s not because we didn’t let him speak his mind or give him a fair shake.). What I mean is that the floor is yours. You will never be deleted. Speak your piece.

McGowdog didn't spend 30 minutes cutting and pasting. He used the binary method; cut and paste a few, then recut and paste what you've done a few times, then repeat and in less than a minute, you've annoyed your bloggers.




I went on to make amends to ftg and she graciously accepted, then told me she would continue to bad-mouth us nonetheless and that they like to debate over there. I don't debate this recovery stuff. It's just life and death for some of us and we don't mess around with it. So ftg said they were snakes over there and I believed them and walked away as she slithered off.

If you can stay sober on rational thought, do it. If you can stay sober on kind thoughts, do it. If you can stay sober on love thy neighbor, do it. Then if that works, please don't go to A.A. and get bent on their suggestions and/or directions and spare them your opinions of it. There's a lot of middle of the road/slogan garbage in A.A. That stuff may be helpful to the hard drinker and the lonely misfit, but it doesn't work for some alcoholics that may need a spiritual experience.

Dog A.A.'s suggestions to a spiritual experience all you want. A.A. is not a theology, a philosophy, and it's not a cult or a dogma. A.A. is merely a set of instructions. If you do certain things, you get a certain result. A.A. works, and it works everytime for alcoholics.

A.A. was built on a foundation of one drunk talking to another drunk. When you realize the simplicity of it, and the fact that those afflicted are solely responsible for their own recovery, they lose their value to a whole industry built up around them. Imagine all the paychecks that are signed off as a result of an alcoholic that is

A) drinking

and

B) still alive.

The problem is, alcoholics have a nasty way of dying, so they run out of root stock. It's the non-alcoholics that get hustled into A.A. that causes the problem.

So these poor abused victims that are in A.A., did they get sentenced into A.A. beyond their own will? Were they court ordered? Were they hustled in? I know some people that DON'T go to A.A. They aren't alcoholics or anything, but they don't go. And they don't bitch about A.A. either. What a concept, huh? If I went to PTA meetings, being that I don't have any children, I'd be confused and lost too. I might even eventually be asked to participate and give of my time. Then about 2 years later, I could be a victim too and say, YOU PTA BASTARDS HAVE WASTED MY LIFE!!!!!!! Then I could be a victim like you losers.

I am a real recovered alcoholic and I go to a meeting about twice a week. You loser dorks go to an Anti-A.A. meeting every day. It's called Stinkin' Thinkin'.

Who Is Bad-Mouthing A.A.? Part III

AA Blog Part 3: the colored text is my responses to comments about AA
Posted 04-20-2009 at 01:45 PM by McGowdog

The following is my interpretation of the AA program as experienced by doing the work out of the book from page 164 and prior. I do not speak for AA, due to its own traditions.

The younger a person starts to drink, the more he/she is likely to drink, the greater the likelihood he/she will become dependent on alcohol. The older a person is before he/she drinks, the less likely they will become dependent. No.

Fear is a tremendous motivator. No it's not. But you're getting the idea. Pain is a tremendous motivator.

Drug misuse is not a disease, it is a decision, like the decision to step out in front of a moving car. You would call that not a disease but an error in judgement. Read the Jay Walker story on pages 37 and 38, then substitute jay walking with alcohol. It makes a bunch of sense to describe the MENTAL OBSESSION.

Next?

Who's Bad-Mouthing A.A. Part II

AA Blog part 2: the colored text is my responses to comments about AA Posted 04-20-2009 at 01:44 PM by McGowdog

The following is my interpretation of the AA program as experienced by doing the work out of the book from page 164 and prior. I do not speak for AA, due to its own traditions.

I postulate that it's NOT a disease because if someone comes from a family of alcoholics and does not drink, they don't become an alcoholic. You MUST START DRINKING to become an alcoholic. Last time I checked, consuming alcohol was a voluntary act. A.A. never said it was a disease. Teetotalers or potential hard drinkers! I'm a potential cancer patient so I choose to not smoke cigarettes! Do I get a cookie?!

Nope. I think it's stupid to get trashed, and idiotic to get trashed to the point of blackout. I don't do it, never did, never will. Well good for you! I choose to not get AIDS, Cancer, Diabetes, Obesity, Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimers, MS, etc. I don't do it, never did, never will! Shame on you sick people!

I'm sorry, but you have direct personal control over whether or not you put the bottle or the cigarette to your lips. It may take lots of willpower to overcome the urge to indulge in the addictive chemical, but the truth is that addictive chemicals do not go into your body by themselves. You have to put them in. You have direct personal control over this. I don't know about this. It goes contrary to my experience; maybe not yours, but mine. Oh, I know! The Devil made me do it! Shame on me!

We've known about the addictive properties of alcohol for who knows how long... over a century, I'd imagine. This is not even in the ball park. When ever you start a sentence with "We've known about..., it should contain fact.

It's a matter of using one's brain in a wise fashion. Oh, I love this one. So no smart or wise people suffer alcoholism or addiction. There's never been a architect or an airline pilot or a Big Corporation CEO or a Scientist or an etc. that been afflicted? That's a brilliant deduction. How about moral and richeous people? No priests or ministers or rabbis or Born-Agains have lost control of their booze or cocaine? Hmmm!

Not everything. For example, I caught chicken pox at age 9 and I didn't want that at all. However, nobody ever consumes alcohol as a result of anything else but their own free will. When was the last time you ever heard of an unwilling person getting alcohol shoved down his/her throat? More brilliant logic! I'd like to challenge you to a game of Sudoku.

What they DO do is ignore everyone's warnings about how usage of these addictive chemicals can lead to such lifestyles. Nobody who never took drugs ever became addicted to drugs. As far as being a prostitute... I know there is sex slavery in this country but most prostitutes are prostitutes out of their own free will. That is the way in which they choose to make their money. And if they do so because it's the only way they can feed their drug habits, see what I wrote above about how nobody who never took drugs got addicted to them. This is like the perfect continuous loop of brilliance here! This is good stuff!

If a person NEVER drinks, there is absolutely zero chance of that person becoming an alcoholic. The dangers of alcohol consumption are known to kids from a very early age. Good grief, they teach you about that stuff starting from like 2nd grade with "just say no" programs! If people would "just say no", there'd be no drug/alcohol/tobacco addicts! =)

So what you're saying is that if they had known that it WOULD happen to them, rather than adopting the traditional teenager attitude of "awwww, that'll never happen to ME", they wouldn't have started drinking? What would've been so bad about TRUSTING the people who told them "it could happen to you too"? My main problem with trying to "think through the drink" is that you're trying to fix a damaged mind with a damaged mind. It's something that is physical... allergy coupled with mental... obsession-I can handle it now, just watch me!

No teenager takes that first puff or that first drink TOTALLY unaware of the ills that those things can cause. They all just believe that "it'll never happen to them", and they'll be able to smoke only when they choose to or drink only when they choose to... so they'll never get addicted... right. What? I was going to fully respond, but your reply is so loaded with irrational emotion, twisting of my words, personal attacks and general gibberish that you've made it clear attempting any discussion with you about this is pointless. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes. Oh, well I'm not the only one calling for more order in here!

the truth is that addictive chemicals do not go into your body by themselves. This one just gives me heartburn.

It sounds like the question we're all skirting around is whether alcoholism is a failure of the will or a physical disease. Sorry but a half-truth is not the truth or a lie. Alcoholism IS a physical craving coupled with a mental obsession. It's always both.

But I have a hard time getting around this: going to groups won't keep you from dying of cancer. It can, however, keep you from dying of alcohol. Nobody picks up a bottle and drinks up a dose of lupus. But lots of people cheerfully choose to drink alcohol. How do you know going to groups doesn't keep you from dying of cancer? It's worth a try, at least for the quality of life and getting out of your own head and helping another, which in turn my help you recover and/or receive a miracle. It can, however keep you from dying of alcohol. No guarantee there! If you're not an alky, sure! If you are, you'd better do steps too. But lots of people cheerfully choose to drink alcohol; yes, like non-alkies. Most alkies are baffled, especially in later stages of the ... allergy.

I agree with you. Do any of us enjoy being enslaved/addicted to our cars? Physically, we're too lazy to substitute that addiction for a healthier addicition to a bicycle, walking to the nearest bus stop, or merely walking to where we're going. I don't even know what to say about this; addicted to cars? Do you write George W. Bush speeches or something?

Some people turn to alcohol because of stress, depression, or anxiety. Maybe true. But it ain't alcoholics. No one is forcing you to drink, smoke, eat, steal that. Do you want to go back and talk about Absolutes? There is a time to steal! There is a time to Kill! There is a time to beg! Show me the person without sin, then we'll talk about absolutes!

I am not an alcoholic myself, but I'd imagine that it's very easy to get sucked into alcoholism when life simply isn't going your way. Well I thank you for the compassion, but no. You CAN'T imagine. I can't imagine what an AIDS patient thinks/does.

People abuse it because it's there and because it's cheap. Be honest now; not just alkies abuse alcohol, right? Bums are NOT alcoholics, they're bums! They are bums because there are benefits to it. Any good alcoholic has a gift or a knack for rebuilding their live up, just to tear it down! A bum never rebuilds anything because they don't have to! Anybody can be a bum! Only an alky can be an alky!

Alcoholism is a family affair. Drunks drink for the effect. Drunks do not care about anything or anyone except the next drink. Drunks donot care if the bills area paid, or if the family has enough food. They only care about the next drink. Drunks do not understand what they do to their children when they are drunk. The do not understand the embarassment and emotional pain they inflict on their families. They do not care. They want that fix, that next drink.. Genetics are only part of it, otherwise whole races would have died off by now. Alcoholics DO care. They rise remorseful and baffled. Some even kill themselves instead of drink! Who ever said an alcoholic has to drink alcohol to die an alcoholic death!???

Who is bad-mouthing A.A.?

AA Blog Part 1: the colored text is my responses to comments about AA
Posted 04-20-2009 at 01:40 PM by McGowdog Updated 04-20-2009 at 01:49 PM by McGowdog (add)

The following is my interpretation of the AA program as experienced by doing the work out of the book from page 164 and prior. I do not speak for AA, due to its own traditions.

Who is bad-mouthing AA? Well let's look at everything that's been said about the problem and misunderstanding of alcholism and the realm of AA in general:

Alcoholism is self-inflicted. Then nobody is nor were they ever powerless physically, mentally, nor spiritually over the stuff.

Drugs are a choice and abuse is a habit. Drugs become sort of a not choice. You can suffer enough to want to quit, then go cold turkey and with constant dilligence and maybe medical treatment and/or isolation, kick the habit... but down the road you may want to use that drug again. What's to stop you? Your brain? How's that working?

Since it's a choice to start drinking in the first place, Wait a minute, how sure are you about this? Are you willing to bet your life on this statement? I'm not! it's a choice throughout regardless of who you are. If I can refrain, so can you ... So can I choose to drink like a gentleman like you? Some people can! do they have to choose not to drink? No, they don't! So are we the same? You want to put some money down on that?

If alcoholism/addiction were truly a disease or whateveryouwanttocallit, people would never recover. What about God? Oh, I'm sorry. Wrong subforum!

Since I'm have alcoholic parents, I abstain myself, so I speak for everybody in saying it's a choice. So both my parents are Democrats. I abstain myself, so I speak for everybody in saying it's a choice. Same logic? Fitting for the topic?

I believe alcoholism is NOT a disease. I agree So do I. Don't call it a disease. Send them to AA. But the docs, nurses, counsellors, judges, cops, morticians etc. ain't gonna be happy!

I agree there are cravings, but after that it's just bad choices. So after the second time someone gets drunk, they can just either decide to only drink two and stop OR decide to never drink booze again!? How's that working?

It's insulting to people who have "Real" diseases to label this one. Right! The people with the REAL diseases are ENTITLED TO THEIR PAIN!!!!!!! Did I say that out loud?

The problem with 12-step programs is that even those programs don't make the person take responsibility for their actions. Of course they don't! Just see my 12 step program and my 13 step program in the Health and Wellness subforum thread.

I put myself in the hands of a "higher power" kind of mantra they use. Well no, it's the experience of 99 God-Fearing sober and recovered alcoholics and 1 sober recovered athiest. Oh, you didn't know you could be an Athiest AND STILL GET SOBER?????????! Well ain't that special?

they should say "It's my fault I'm in this position but I myself have the power to get clean..." If you can do that, great. Hats off to ya! But if that don't work look us up. We're near the beginning of the phone book.

So basically, AA is flawed because of the God experiment. It worked fine for 100. They put together a book stating exactly what they did. The experiment is one alky with a desire to stop drinking for good and all. A business deal fell through. He was on the road and saw some people having fun in a bar. He decided to call a ministry and ask if there was another drunk he could talk to. They met. One had knowledge of the spiritual program. One had the knowledge of the Problem. They were able to help each other stay sober for a day so, they realized they had to try it out on another. It worked once they plugged the Problem into the Solution. I'd say God is anything but an "experiment". If anything, we are the experiment!

It's just a matter of being motivated enough to find something you can do. Motivation!
I like Rational Recovery best of all. They've shrunk down from ten steps to one, which reads: "STOP DRINKING AND DRUGGING, YOU BIG JERK!" Rational Recovery! Life Ring! SMART! Perfect! Great for non alcoholic hard drinkers, from what I hear from a local Alcohol/Drug counselor. Asked him about Secular recovery too. He said, "All they do is sit around and bitch about A.A. Perfect! Check out my meeting sometime and you'll find somebody who doesn't mind working with "chronic relapsers". If you're not alky, heres a trick that will save you a bunch of time and cash; just decide to not get drunk or to not drink booze! But if you're a real alky, how's that working?

Bullcrap. It's your fault, get over it and fix your problems. My grandpa quit drinking, my parents quit smoking and my sister quit doing drugs. I'm around drugs and alcohol ALL THE TIME and I'm still sober. Simple. Take personal responsibility and quit blaming on other things. ?? Have you considered alanon? or ACA? Or how about Alatot?

So I guess being problem-free leads to sobriety? Yeah! I wonder that too. I'm NOT problem-free and I'm sober as a judge!

"It's not my fault I drink myself silly every day." um yeah, it is. Sorry if things are rough, but nobody forced that bottle to your mouth. There it is again! I thought this invisible pusher was getting me drunk! So I guess, guilting and remorsing the alcoholic and reminding them that nobody shoved the bottle into their mouth is good to do. We love that stuff!

Its a habit the same as smoking. I got a DUT the other day. Driving Under the Influence of Tabacco.

IMO... I'm sorry, but why seek opinion when we've got experience?

IMHO Well thank Goodness you didn't hit us up with IMDO!

The reason many do it is they frankly like it ;just like smoking. Well I'll drink to that!

The reason they do it is because.... - E.F. Hutton Tell us more! We're listening! Most alkies don't know why they drink! We're so glad to finally find out why!

and if you find yourself in a bad situation with an Alcoholic/Drug Addict who IS SICK, and refuses to get help then walk away. The Alanon program has been going for quite a while. I wonder what they'd say about this. I think it's a deeper issue than just "walk away". Heart is in the right place, but goes contrary to peoples' experience on this Walk away for sure! Why did you spread your legs in the first place?

I think after 34 yrs of drinking large amounts of alcohol I would know something about it. Only 2 things distinguish the alky from the non-alky; time ain't one of them. The Real Alcoholic may NEVER become a continuous hard drinker. You may think you're helping the cause of addiction/alcoholism, but ask yourself; am I a normal drinker, a moderate drinker, a teetotaler, a hard drinker, or am I a Read Alcoholic?

I was a full fledged Alcoholic and could never drink again cause it would kill me. Now once you go to a good AA meeting, they'll give you the dignity to take your own first step. Come to your own conclusion. How did you honestly drink? Did you ever drink against your own will? Could you control the amount once you started? Did you lie about and hide your drinking? On your own power, could you stay stopped for something like a year or more? Once you started again, could you drink 2 and stop, on a consistence basis?

...and was told to start smoking cigerettes (sp) cause it was safer. ...
I quit cold turkey 2 yrs ago because of meds I take, pain killers, for my disability, made me very uncomfortable and just decided not to drink.There ya go! Given a sufficient reason, so you stopped! Wonderful! You're a hard-drinker! Not an alcoholic.

So now I don't smoke 4/pk a day or drink 12/pk a day for better health and now I am disabled and morbidly obese. Well hang in there. Hope you can eat more healthy and get some safe excercise.

Most alchys from what I have seen cannot face anything in life unless innibriated. It is also in the genes. Passed down, or is this just another excuse? I wonder sometimes.... Well maybe it is just an excuse. They need an excuse because they're trying to control a behavior that they can't control. If they could control it, they would either not get drunk or just not drink! This is the same question alkies and observers of alkies have noticed for over 7000 years!

I have no idea who Roy Tarpley is, nor do I wish to defend his behaviour, but isn't it a known fact that 'successful' professional star athletes (and other performers) work under tons of pressure? So which is it? Alcoholism is a matter of external circumstances or it's not? Pick one? If they can't make a living, they have to starve and sniff glue? But if they're rich millionares, they have too much pressure? What!?!

I wouldn't find it strange that these people often turn to drugs because they can't handle the pressure of their job and/ or the pressure of being a public figure. Oh, so there again, we find a reason for its cause. Every public figure who has pressure is an alcoholic/addict and needs a way to deal?

Cocaine doesn't have a large physical component to the addiction, it's more mental, but it is notoriously hard to kick. Really? Is this a fact?

While caffiene and nicotine do have a rather large physical compentent, but are comparably easier to quit. Really? Is this a fact?