Spirituality vs. Religion

Went to a meeting today and the chair person made step two the topic, but more specifically, he was trying to inform a lot of the newcomers in the group/meeting to understand that with all the God talk lately, that they do not have to buy into some organized religion form of God.

I think it's a good point in the fact that I need to come to terms as to whether I'm an alcoholic or not and if I need divine help to get and stay sober... or at very least to stay sober.

I see nothing wrong with organized religion... if used properly.  A lot of folks in A.A. seem to have had a hellfire and brimstone God shoved down their throat.  I did not.  But regardless of how wonderful a person's religious upbringing, if they're alcoholic now, how good could that religion be doing with regards to the booze?

Can a person who is accustomed to some religious path do A.A. and come later to incorporate that discipline into their life as well?  Can someone who was never too strong in religion come to incorporating some religion of their choice whilst also staying plugged into A.A.?

Can a person who walked away from religion long ago but found sobriety in A.A. find a way to just keep their trap shut as to suggesting others to do likewise so as to solicit some form of approval or whatever it is they do?

It just seems to me that many bleeding deacons who go to meetings feel the need to paint a rosy path for the newcomer so as to not let any mention of God scare the new man off.

Back in the days of our cofounders, did the folks who were agnostic/atheist generally stay that way?  Or did many come to believe in some form of God that may be associated with some religion?  I know many will argue that A.A. was generally based on Christianity.  I don't buy it.  I also hear the same garbage about the forming of the US of A.  To me, our great nation was formed on Spiritual Principles, not religious dogma.  But, this is something we can argue till the cows come home.  I argue that our nation is spiritual rather than religious because we generally have the freedom to worship how and if... without giving up our rights and freedoms.  Not so in many parts of the world during the forming of this new nation.  Same goes with A.A. in my experience.  I am not forced into believing and practicing the dogma of any particular religion.

The books itself tells us in very specific detail what we are called to do... be quick to point out where religious people are right... make use of what they offer.  I am called upon to be open minded.  As my mentor's mentor says, "I used to think open minded meant adding to the vast knowledge that I already possess.  What I found out was that I'm called to start anew with the whole deal... and to choose... all the way down the line."  That's a paraphrase, but I think I got the jist of it.

Yesterday in this same meeting, we had a group of gals graduating from the local treatment center, so the chairperson yesterday chose to cater to these ladies and let them share where they are now and what they plan on doing going forward.  Just about every gal talked about how they used to hate other girls and only hung out with guys and how they have come to open up to their female companions a bit.  It's a good thing I didn't get called on to share because I was going to explain to them my opinion about their tendencies.  Many of these women hate other women because they see them as competition.  They see men as providers.  It's about that simple.

I would have gone on to talk about how it is my opinion that these gals... whether they go on to get sober/clean or not, do A.A./(fill-in-the-blank A.) or not... they at very least try to get back on their own two feet and put themselves in a position to provide for themselves.  This would entail, get a job, pay the bills, don't cheat, steal, fight, break the law in general, etc.  Then maybe, if they can face up to the fact that the best deal they got is to look at those steps.  Am I alky?  Do I need God's grace and protection and care?  Am I willing to let God be my Provider?  Will God do for me what I cannot do for myself?  Will God provide for me so long as I do not place others or myself in the wrong position? 

It's got to be a bit tougher for women though.  See, they will not hear that shit that I would spew in a meeting... not ever... especially the cute ones.  Ever notice how women, specifically the cute ones, get treated different?  It's as if nobody has the balls to give it to them straight.  This particual meeting I have been going to has no recovered women in it.  The "elder statesmen" don't want to see the new man/woman get run off with God talk or ... perhaps step-talk.

But unfortunately, I think people get what they want.  They want the easier softer way.  I don't think they spend enough time discussing what an alcoholic is and if they are one or not and whether they have really come to terms with whether they are going to decide into this spiritual path or not.  Until all this stuff is ironed out, the God talk is just talk, imo.

The CDCR has ordered parole officers to find alternative programs for such parolees.

Really?

I don't think so. Here's my opinion about this; Tell the 3-strikes-you're-out-convicted-meth-head to go start his own secular drug program and quit blaming the courts, POs, cops, DOC, the treatment center, etc. for your sore brown starfish.



You're a druggie punk and you and your lawyer found a little loophole in the system thanks to the 1st Amendment. Good for you.

Conclusion; if you're an atheist, don't use A.A. or N.A., C.A., etc.

Request; please go out and start a secular alternative and take your atheists with you. If your secular program can be the least bit altruistic, maybe you'll encourage going to the jails, hospitals, courts, treatment centers, etc. and finding your own kind and offering up a place for them to get clean/sober/etc. without the use of God or Higher Power or whatever it is you find offensive and get on with NOT BREAKING THE FUCKING LAWS OF OUR FINE NATION UNDER GOD YOU FUCKING HEATHENS!

So you win! A.A. is a religion and A.A. is about God. Now go fuck yourselves, but don't expect tax exemption for your newly created religion, Atheism. Well actually, I could care less.

What I care about is the untreated meth-head who is looking to rape your daughter and snatch the purse from your wife at the local 7-11 and drag her 30 feet while she tries to steal her own purse back but you're in an 8 day spun-out meth binge as you drive off.

Now maybe, just maybe, A.A., N.A., C.A., and other God-based 12 Step programs can stop bending over backwards to fill the needs of the misbehaving world. Go ahead. Start your own programs and leave A.A. alone. Go now and find an empty building in your local strip mall, get a few tables, a few chairs, a coffee pot or a tea pot, a few slogans, a few secular druggies and/or drunks, and a hat, and start a meeting. Run your Godless program anyway you want, make mistakes, come up with traditions to tighten things down, and maybe you'll soon surpass A.A. and sway the courts and hospitals to send some clients your way.

You ought to have a decent base already to go now; Agent Orange followers, Stinkin' Thinkin' followers, the Blame Guys, about 90% of the folks over at Sober Roverery...

[s]elf Bless you all and have a wonderful day.

Happy F'in Easter !!!!

Well, I was reflecting on the Easter Season, which is the most holy time of the year for me. There is so much good stuff to ponder, the ultimate example of unselfishness showed by Jesus at the least and the redemtion from sin and resurection from the dead and the whole God became man thing, if you are that much of a believer.

I figured I'd go over and see what our atheist anti-AA friends were talking about during this special time of year. And look what I happened upon......a link to this argicle http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/apr/02/janesville-school-district-reviewing-its-12-step-r/ which is about some group 'Freedom From Religion Foundation' (I know, how unAmerican is that ?) who is taking the Janesville WI school district to task for recommending 12 step attendance (along with other sober social and family activities) for high school kids who have drug and alcohol problems. And to make matters worse the special school meets in .....are you ready, gasp, a church....omg.

I do think it's great that while the Christian world celebrates one of the most unselfish acts of all time, the atheists are showing the world just how petty and selfish they are. Well, they do that every time they open their mouths, but the contrast just warms my heart.

So what kind of organization does FTG and MA and the anti-AA crew look up to ?
How is this group making the world a better place ?

Let's take a look at some of the issues they regularly work on :


"Churches Used as Polling Places
A church is being used as a polling location. Is that legal?"

Yes, you read it right. The atheists are so bigoted and vile that they feel dirty if they even have to step foot in a church. Answer, complain and get an absentee ballot. Bonus, you won't have to go out in public and be around other prople's germs. It's a win/win situation.

"Churches and Political Lobbying Activities
A church is participatiing in political lobbying. What can I do about it?"

Well, if you don't go to church how do you know ?? Churches can not endorse specific candidates or party's but they can speak on issues and such. Grow the fuck up and stop complaining because someone is publicly disagreeing with you. BTW been to any mosques lately ??



"Child Custody and Religion
A court has ordered that my ex-spouse has the right to take my son/daughter to a church, religious school or other religious event with which I disagree. What are my rights?"

Well, you mostly have the right not to spread your legs /pin her locks if your partner is a theist. Once the deed is done, it's too fucking bad for you if the childs parent wants to take the kids to church when he/she has visitation/custody. Here's a thought, grow the hell up and start thinking about your child instead of yourself. Oh, that's right, an atheist can't do that. Sorry, I forgot.

"Church Bulletin Discounts A store is offering a discount or promotion for bringing in a church bulletin. Is that legal?"

It turns out it's not legal. You can't sell your goods in the way you like, in the good ole' US of A. Imagine that. Of course I'd just go up to the manager and tell him I went to church and forgot the bulletin and get the discount, if I wanted it. But, then I'd probably have a church bulletin anyway because I don't feel my eyes burn when I look at a chruch.

"Consumer Complaints
I am tired of stores and restaurants playing gospel music. I feel this violates my right to 'freedom of religion.' Is there anything that can be done about it?"

LOL !!! Find another store, dick weed. My 'rights' are being violated because I don't like the music they play in the store.....this is great. Hey, do you think the store owner, employees and other customers have any rights or did they make 'rights' just for you ??

"Court-Ordered Participation in A.A.
Information for Prisoners and Probationers Required to Attend A.A., N.A., or Other Religiously Centered Drug and Alcohol Rehab Programs"

Right. The alternative would be jail. Since that's where you belong anyway, please complain about AA and serve your time. It would show the world how true your 'moral compass' points.


"HUD Housing Violations
I live in a HUD-subsidized housing. What are my rights to avoid religious activities and decorations?"

Yup, 'rights' to avoid religious activites. You have them, so go ahead and ruin it for everyone else. That, again, will prove what a great moral person you are. You fucking baby.


"Nativity Displays on Public Property
Are Christmas displays a violation of the First Amendment?"

Yes, these atheists want to shit all over Christmas. Use it as a teaching oppurtunity to explain to your kids what scum bags these people are.
I seem to remember reading the Puritans banned Xmas also. How did that work out for them ??

"Prayer at Senior Centers
They make us listen to prayer before we eat lunch at public-funded senior centers. Help!"

I want my free lunch now, I don't want to have to wait 10 seconds while someone prays !!!! Here's a hint...when everyone else is praying, start eating. They won't know because they have their eyes closed.


"Religious Tests for Public Office
Why do some states require a religious test for public office? Isn't that unconstitutional?"

Unfortunatley, it is. But you may as well complain and donate to this shit brain organization anyway.

"Good Friday Closings
Is it legal for government offices and public schools to close for Good Friday?"

Oh Uh......they close for Martin Luther King day too.....buy atheists only spew their bigotry on certain groups. They like to consider themselves friendly with the Blacks even though I don't see any smiling black faces on the website.

"Prayers at Government Meetings
Is an Establishment Clause violation occurring at government meetings?"

This is great because the atheist actually quote (mis-quote of course) The Bible on this one :

'Even the Jesus of the New Testament condemned public prayer: “Enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret” (Matt. 6:5-13).
Observing a strict separation of church and state offends nobody..'

You know what else offends nobody, you keeping your fat, white atheist ass at home.

"Immigration Oaths
I want to become a U.S. citizen, but am not religious and don’t want to take a religious oath. What are my rights?"

You have the right not to become a US citizen.

"Jury Oaths
I've been called for jury duty. Or, I need to testify at a trial. Am I going to have to take a religious oath or place my hand on a bible?"

You are wise in not touching the Bible as your hands will burn. Best stay home and hide under the bed.

"Marriage License Oaths
When we went to apply for our marriage license, the county clerk told us we had to state an oath to "God." What can we do?"

You mean you have to swear an Oath to a God you don't believe exists ? Better just shack up. It's easier.

"Bible Distribution in Public Schools
Can Gideons pass out bibles at my child's public school?"

Just say no ?

"Churches Renting Public Schools
A church is meeting in a public school. What can I do about it?"

Ummmm, don't go to the service ?

"Pledge of Allegiance
Do I (or my child) have to participate in the religious Pledge of Allegiance in my public school?"

It's good that you don't participate in the pledge since you aren't an American. Best let everyone know.

"Prayers in School
What is the law about prayers in public schools?"

Bla, bla, bla......God forbid you should have to hear someone pray.


"Religious Music
My child's choir is singing religious music. Is that legal?"

Have the little bastard quit.

http://www.ffrf.org/

Who is Hating on A.A.?

M A, on June 9th, 2009 at 5:01 pm Said:
Hi, ***.

No, you aren’t close. I try not to spend my time trying to speak rationally to, or debating with those who have been brainwashed by the AA scriptures, because arguing religion is fruitless. I will answer this question, because it is simple.

AA is not a benign organization. AA harms many, many people – both alcoholics and their families. AA wrecks people’s lives. AA did not fail me, although I have seen it fail so many others; and, not just fail, but cause them irreparable, permanent harm. It also causes society a great amount of harm. We just want to create some awareness. That’s it.

You either don’t understand this or you won’t admit to it because you are brainwashed by this cult. You really aren’t the audience we are playing to here, although we welcome your input. We are really gearing this to those who been harmed by AA, and those who are considering AA.

Judging from the number of hits, and the feedback we have received, it seems to be working well with our target audience.

And then further we see;

M A, on June 8th, 2009 at 8:42 am Said:
Thanks, Richard.
I checked it out, but will have to go back to read the rest of his comments. Reading what McGowdog writes is like looking at the sun: I can only do it for short periods at time before I turn my head away. You know that really bad feeling of empathy for someone who makes an ass of themselves in public? That is how I feel when I read what that poor bastard writes. No doubt his AA buddies read it and think, “shut up, already; you are making us look bad”.

I... make A.A. look bad? And you make it look like a bed of roses? Really?

Tell us how you really feel about A.A., would ya M.A.?

Friendthegirl?

AA is f%#$ing enormous. If the treatment industry were a microcosm of the whole country, AA would fill the niche Christianity fills. And like Christianity, which has a mighty sense of entitlement to assert itself and influence every facet of society – public schools, court rooms, the Constitution, people’s private lives – AA/12-step has a similar sense of entitlement within the treatment industry. And it is also treated by the treatment industry with the same… Idunno… unquestioning, kid-glove indulgence that Christianity enjoys. In general, people treat Christianity with respect, even if they don’t believe it. It’s kind of funny how rational people, or people who are not Christians, will so rarely – in the arena of public discourse – call bullshit on someone’s religion, even when their opponent’s religious belief is at the very root of their demented approach to public policy.

Nobody wants to stand up and lambaste AA anymore than anyone wants to get on prime-time news and tell Christians that their religion is ridiculous and that it has no place in government (unless you’re Christopher Hitchens). If you do that, you become the immoral, godless crank, and the uproar is enormous. How long do you think it will be before our country is ready to elect an atheist President? As it stands, we just don’t take anyone seriously unless they have faith in some in strange, random, unprovable, supernatural event – among many random, strange things they could possibly believe.

In the treatment industry, public criticism of AA and 12-Step programs is rare, and for the same reasons. It is always very delicately couched – AA is just a given; it’s conventional wisdom, mainstream. I wonder how many times Ann Landers, for instance, has suggested AA to her readers, without knowing anything more about it than that AA is what drunks are supposed to do. The treatment industry is bloated with AA, and this is a horrible result. AA is a “miracle;” it’s a belief system; it’s a spiritual program. But it is not addiction treatment, anymore than Intelligent Design is science.

In order for science to consider Intelligent Design seriously, even just to engage in a debate with ID’s proponents, science itself would have to abandon its rigorous standards; the conversation would require that science actually redefine terminology in order to find some common ground for discussion. This has already happened with AA. The treatment industry takes the utter unaccountability of AA seriously. Terms like “spiritual disease” are rarely questioned. And the result of this has been disastrous for so many people.

Further, AA’s unaccountability and lack of responsibility for what actually happens in AA meetings, and the treatment industry’s dependence on, and unquestioning acceptance of AA, has generated some awful AA gestalt, which is like the gray goo. People are not being treated for their addictions in AA; they’re either becoming part of the goo or getting run over by it. As MA pointed out, we’ve seen the damage it does to people — its epidemic.

Compared to the giant machine AA has for support, and the doe-eyed acceptance it receives in general, and the millions of members and meetings, we’re really small potatoes. AA is not the underdog; it’s the Gold Standard. AA enjoys a place at the head of the grown-ups’ table, while its critics are viewed as the turds in the punchbowl.

But when we criticize AA, hold it up to the light of day, the response we receive from AAs is so interesting. You’d think they were being persecuted. An enormous institution with this much influence (yes, I know AAs deny this) should be immune from criticism? Can’t handle a little ankle biting? They do not welcome the muckrakers? They have no interest in doing a fearless moral inventory, rooting out abuses and ineffective elements, in evolving? No desire for accountability? Why? Why are the members who question what goes on in meetings told to take the cotton out of their ears? No checks and balances? No standards? Critics must have failed the program that cannot fail.

So, yeah, I’d say that our mission here is noble. We have a mess. People are being harmed in AA because it mimics the dynamics of an abusive domestic relationship* – and it is The Norm. Is wanting to “expose the truth and save the world” a ridiculous pursuit? The way you phrase that makes it seem that doing so is quixotic, silly, childish, deluded. I guess it’s the “and save the world” part. How about we leave off that part, and put it like this, “expose the truth, keep the conversation going, and hope it leads to reform.”
–ftg

This will take some time to digest and figure out. I guess Stinkin' Thinkin's religion is merely Anti A.A... sort of like the Anti-Christ, right?