Alcohol Recovery Blog... Well, not so much any more. I've lost all of my support over the last several years obviously. Nobody wants to go head to head with the Anti/XAers anymore. Seems that most have jumped off of the A.A. "bandwagon" all together. I've lost my resolve as well. Still sober 20+ years though. So there is that.
Thank you to Rob for this tragic irony. Do I find this funny? Not the act... but the baboon-faced fuck with the stupid look on his face is sort of funny. I wonder if he doesn't have a resentment on his shirt. I doubt he'll be sportin' that baby during his hearing.
We've all seen the shirt or the bumper sticker. Funny, until someone gets hurt. He's lucky he didn't kill that cop. He's a fuck-up... imo. He may or may not be alky. In any case, that's his problem.
As I commented on this elsewhere, "Maybe this time the guy will spend less time mocking folks who are committing to a better way of life and more time finding a way to get his own shit together."
The next shirt he's gonna need is a D.A.M.M. shirt, Drunks Against MADD Mothers. Then there's always the I'm With Stupid ^ shirt. Anyone remember those?
Thank God A.A. is notorious, cultish, and religious enough to not have to deal with some of these fuck-ups... imo of course.
I’m just surprised that I got them to pull down the naked 14 year old looking girl picture from the website. Looking back at his posts Tony J does have a sexist opinion of women. It is obvious he does not respect women and I am sure that none of his AA buddies do either. You know the old saying “birds of a feather flock together”. I mean come on they have a picture of a woman sitting on a mans face and claim it is one of the people from this site and the caption
“Looks like I picked a bad year to quit fighting Anti-AA.”
What are they trying to say? That if you quit fighting AA you get laid? What scares me the most is that these people run meetings and have influence over them. I mean the owner of the site is bragging how it is his birthday and is going to go home after work and do his wife. Civilized people do not talk that way. I am afraid for my nieces who are about the same ages as the ones posted on that site, will be approached by one of these two. It is obvious what they want and they have learned mind control to get it.
What? I didn't say I was gonna go home and do my wife. I said I was going to come home from my A.A. meeting and get frisky with her. That doesn't mean I'm going to "do" her. Do you have a problem with this? And then when I return home from my A.A. meeting, I have a life that's worth living at home too. This is what I'm demonstrating in that statement. That's why I talk that way. I'm sober. I have a wonderful wife. We have a wonderful home together. I have a JOB! I work and earn my pay. I pay bills. I basically have a life that's worth living. I don't harm people and get away with it... not in meetings and not anywhere else. If you have a problem with me and post over there, why not post over here? Do you think you're making me look bad in front of your fellow minions for celebrating an A.A. birthday? We celebrate our birthdays here. A year is a big deal. Seven years is something else too. It's the longest continuous sobriety I've ever had in my whole life. You got a problem with the banter between Tony J and Mike? What business of yours is that anyway? Those two go way back to a Mentalhelp blog that's been ongoing for two or more years. Shame us all you want JR. It's your beady little finger that's gonna get out of joint. BTW, thanks for wishing me a happy birthday. As some of you anti/XAer folks say, "There's no wrong way to get and stay sober". Unless of course, that includes A.A.
You are way out of line with your comments about me, JR. But, I'm sure your fellow minions at Stinkin' Thinkin' love to eat it up. Have a nice life.
In A.A., who is responsible to facilitate who belongs in the A.A. fellowship and who do not belong? Who is responsible to facilitate where to send alcoholics who are not done drinking? Do we tell the prospect that we suspect that they are probably not alcoholic and direct them to some other place? If so, where? Do we give them a pamphlet, a slogan... such as "Put the Plug in the Jug", a bus pass, and send them packing? Or do we tell them that we cannot identify with them, but tell them to keep an open mind and keep coming back until they find out otherwise? If they're thirsty, do we buy them a jug and uncork it for them? Do we tell the alcoholics who will not do steps to go to some other program? Like Life Ring or... the Salvation Army? Is this the responsibility of the "sponsor" or do we give the newcomer the dignity to take responsibility for themselves? Is A.A. not just passively letting the courts, treatment centers, medical field, clergy, etc. provide prospects that may or may not be a good fit?
You're either alcoholic or you're not. A.A. has a process to find this out. Get in or get out. Maybe you are being punished for being a law breaker and you are being forced to A.A. Maybe you have some back problems and you're being "coerced" into A.A. You got a wife on your back, or a husband on your back or a boss/company on your back. Well go to your meetings, get your papers signed, then meet back here once the heat is off, and decide... in or out. If A.A. is not your thing, can you physically decide... for yourself... in or out? Is A.A. like the Navy Seals during Hell Week? Is the peer pressure so tough that you cannot decide for yourself whether A.A. is for you or not? Must you go for 19 years before you decide that A.A. is a nasty and dangerous cult and that there is a better way?If this is your case, Mike, I suggest you go to the "Drama" section of Blockbuster Video, and rent some Shakespeare plays... and some popcorn... maybe some Goobers and Mike and Ikes. I see anti/XAers and the claims they make. Then they say that someday, courts and the alcoholism industry will stop meddling into the lives of others and stop forcing people to this place called A.A. They say that something better than A.A. will come about and A.A. will go by the wayside... much like the Washingtonians. What killed the Washingtonians? Did it not implode from within? I'm not so sure that an outside force will kill A.A. In fact, a certain percentage of the anti/XAers out there seem to be of the same belief; A.A. needs to not be forced upon people... such as from the courts. But as some pro-A.A.ers have observed... those fine folks from the courts see it as the best option STILL! Why haven't the anti/XAers come up with something better, some better game plan, than "Not A.A."?
Another blog is running a thread about whether or not A.A. is the culprit for so many suicides and not the nature of the "fatal malady" itself.
"I think that some people might find that the connection isn’t between AA and suicide, but between alcoholism and suicide, and that highlighting the correlation is specious. What is your take on that?" Specious; having a false look of truth, deceptive attraction. The writer claims to not know much about the topic of "suicide" but wants to learn more about it by opening the topic up to the predominantly anti/XAers... see if they can't form an outline of sorts. Yeah right. She cites the Vaillant Surveys; Now we're going to see some personal testimonies and comments on the topic;
_ says I’d bet it’s both. Sure, alcoholism is dangerous and depressing and can lead to suicide. But the 12 steps are depressing and defeating and seem to facilitate “benders,” so I’d say they exacerbate the suicide rate. Hmmm. Not my experience in the steps. I've found them to be very freeing actually. I have seen a lot of people in A.A. who do everything but steps and repeat the same drunkalogues over and over again. I wouldn't say their total life is a waste. I would say they could do better in a spiritual sense and I wonder why they stay in A.A., but who knows? Maybe I'll be in their shoes one day. I could see myself just walking away from A.A. at any given time. But right now, I see a bunch of hope and a bunch of cool folks enjoying themselves in A.A. For most, it's not a death sentence.
A reference to a blamethenile vid... _ says, "This is undoubtedly the worst problem of the AA faith, and their promotion of the concept of “powerlessness” which when combined with the AA faith’s promotion of telling people they have a progressive, incurable, and terminal disease, leads people to hopelessness. This misinformation is promoted by people that have NO credibility."I'm not even going to watch that stupid video. I can imagine how they manipulate the data and the goings on at meetings. Which is it, a religion, a cult, a place to get 13th stepped, or a place to commit suicide? Get real for just a minute. Not my experience. If it was, it would make me look pretty bad for just being a part of it. That's exactly what you will jump on next; McGowdog... bad dawg!
_says, "In October of 2000, I attempted suicide. I was drunk and took a whole bottle of tranquilizers. I knew what I was doing–I wasn’t in a blackout. I grew up in AA. My first meeting was at age 15. I would relapse and leave about every six years, thinking my only way out of the program was to drink, just like the group told me. I was a naive and impressionable girl. The women who 1st-stepped me–all I can remember now (I have blocked out most of my early days in AA) is they said something like, “Listen to these people and learn.” So I did listen. I was indoctrinated young. Eventually I started thinking, day and night in cult-speak. It made its way into my creative writing; my conversations with non-program people; and it dominated my thinking for over 20 years. I was desperate–with that one little shred of my mind I wouldn’t let them have–to get away from these people, but I was so afraid that I would relapse (which would happen anyway) that I kept coming back for more brainwashing. I have finally gotten away from the program to the havens of this blog and the orange papers and Rational Recovery. I truly have only begun to deprogram my mind from this lifeblood-sucking cult. Had ONE person in treatment or a therapist in all of my years of therapy told me there are options, I might have been spared so many wasted years. But in the 80s, I don’t know that there were too many other options. Anyway, in 2000, as I was desperately trying to stay sober for thirty days while going to the program, I relapsed again. Obviously something (I do believe it was not me) was “honestly” not working. As I contemplated my choices of jails, institutions and death or AA, I became increasingly suicidal. I have depressive tendencies anyway, but I felt the walls were closing in on me, in terms of the either/or rhetoric that was fed me. After three days I woke up in a hospital bed, and as soon as I was stable: one guess as to where I was sent. Yet more brainwashing. I had been around for a long time by then, had seen some pretty amazingly unhealthy and downright twisted behavior, and just couldn’t believe I was destined to mix with crazy people in a crazy cult. All I wanted was out. I had been through graduate school by then, majoring in English and having acquired critical thinking skills. I have finally gotten sober. I haven’t been sober long and am some days barely hanging on. I am inspired by this site, and inspired seems a funny word since many of you are atheists. It doesn’t matter to me. Many of you are sane and make sense, and I can’t thank “Mr. Orange” enough for what his online book has done for me. I am new here, and wonder if you all have any non-12 step suggestions for a fledgling former cult-er who is trying very hard to stay away from the all-too-seductive lure of AA and /or booze. Peace." You... are a certified nutjob. You are/were socialized in A.A. You are a drama queen and should seek outside help.
_ says "I have lost several friends to AA’s self fulfilling prophecy of death. One hung himself with chain after a meeting, another drank himself to death in front of a steak and glass of wine like in the big book story, and another took some pills and went to bed. All these and many more were my favorite people to hang out with. They were uncommonly fun, enjoyed road trips, eating out, etc. They all went to AA, accepted the indoctrination, and died due to a modified belief system. This is what I hate about AA. AA’s need to teach others that there are many ways to quit or moderate drinking instead of teaching they have the only cure." You know... I think that the removal of all the MOTR and slogan shit would go a long way to resolving a lot of problems in A.A. When stuff gets added in and people try to hustle others into A.A. just because it worked for them... I could see where it could cause problems. Hope I don't partake in such BS. If I was harming people inside or outside of A.A., my life would suffer. Why would I want that? I do have a conscience, you know? Most of us do. We are not the Hells Angels and meth dealers and puppy killers.
_ says, "I saw one friend die in a similar fashion, though I don’t believe he actually meant to commit suicide. He had been forced into the 12 steps and just couldn’t get it……..and was told the fault was his. Whilst he “moderated” his alcohol to a degree, his guilt made him him look elsewhere and he died injecting heroin. I’m sure from speaking to him just before he died that his failure to work the steps was the main factor, in his mind though certainly not mine. I always told him to “get out more”………..live life, see people and stop the self pity, but he had too many people from within AA telling him he was weak, diseased and going to die. It’s a disgusting programme for some folks who don’t need bullying. I would love to take issue with this guy and the way he was “abuse works on most everyone – being vulnerable to it is not a character defect or the result of a dysfunctional background. Isn’t there some recovery program based on having more fun in life, instead of on becoming sober and gloomy? pushed” to his death but there’s no point in AA." Bullying? Really? If someone tries to force you into doing something ... inside of A.A. ... a person ought to be able to stand up for themselves and just say "No". It may get you "fired" as a sponsee, but who gives a fuck? I give thou personal power to not be victims and to run your own life... inside and outside of A.A. It works for me. And I really really want it to work for you too. I hate the slogan, "But for the grace of God there go I." I hated it before you stupifucks brought it up. I was told to not cuss so much. Oops.
_ says, "Yes, well, it’s like being sent to one of those Khmer Rouge style reeducation camps, at the level of the mindfuck. Of course it drives people off the cliff. And I’m not joking!" A.A. drives people off the cliff? That's believable.
_ says, "... and I think that you can use your experience in AA as a springboard to help a lot of people deprogram from AA and find an exit strategy." Exit strategy... "What are you doing tonight? Going to an A.A. meeting?" Hmmm. No. Not ever again. They kill people and entice them into suicide. Think I'll watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer instead."
_ says, "AA can pour huge amounts of shit on people. None of it is worth dying for." Lots of shit... Shit happens, but it usually doesn't get poured on people. No?
_ says, " Sure, suicide is selfish, AA is a selfish program. Those that I have known who did it did so because there was no hope. They believed they were bodily and mentally different from their fellows as AA teaches. AA had taught them that there were no other options for serenity other than an AA recovery. They kept coming back even though it didn’t work for them. They killed themselves because they could not take the pain any more. I did hear this one good platitude about suicide in AA: Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Tell it to someone who can’t take the pain anymore, they probably can’t even hear you?" You know enough about A.A. to be dangerous. Ever heard that one? I've heard some nasty mean shit in A.A. come to think of it. I usually laugh. But I'm twisted. And a lot of people know me, so... they are not threatened by me! Hell, I know most of the people in A.A. meetings. If there was a new person, I/we certainly wouldn't want to run them off or run them off a cliff or run them into suicide! You fucksticks are amusing yourselves at our expense, no?
_ says, "The thing is, AA would teach you that there is no hope – but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Things will get better (especially if you leave AA and get some real help for your addiction and/or suicidal feelings). For the record, I know a person who attempted suicide as a direct result of steppers telling her that she was powerless and defective and would inevitably die a miserable alcoholic death as the result of one lapse. AA teaches despair to vulnerable people who need real help. That is why they should be stopped, or at least be made publicly accountable. Or at the very least be required by law to get some proper qualifications before they are allowed to “counsel” impressionable addicted people and foist their misanthropic and hopeless world view upon them." There again... you know enough about A.A. to be dangerous to yourself and others. Accountable? People in A.A. are accountable for everything they say and do.
_ says, " I am older and wiser now, and I have recognized the AA program for what it is: a cult that lures people in with its false promises of a better life. I really do believe it is a cult, but how could I have known any better as an impressionable young teen?" Back to the professional and institutionalized XA member.
k says, "The main reason why I am a critic if AA is based on my observations of 2 people sharing in a meeting their suicidal thoughts, one of which actually attempted suicide the other I am not sure about. Their shares incuded the blanket derogatory name calling of themselves as alcoholics about them being selfishness, egotitsical etc. straight out of the big book. They wondered why other people, like their guru sponsor could get it and they couldn’t. They didn’t have any of these traits, the big book had convinced them they had and because of the promises hadn’t come true and they were still depressed they felt like a failure aswell, probably dishonest as thats what the big book says of people who fail the program. The modern perspective on treating the majority of people with depression is to raise self esteeem and not try and smash it like the big book of AA does. I repeatedly posted similar stuff on SR until I got banned (woohoo). The AAers response was that it was an outside matter, they must be spiritually unfit."(oh k! Join the club! Except the rest of us are and will continue to be sober. You're not.)They fail to grasp that becasue AA believes people are suffering alcoholism even years after not drinking!What are its symptoms, well for a start the promises describe a person going from being depressed to being happy. So understanbly people think their depression and desire to drink to self medicate is alcoholism, rather than depression. Alcoholism involes drinking alcohol it can cause depression and depression can cause alcoholism but they are different things The AA program, the big book seems aimed at narcissists and people of a deviant nature. Not all people who drink alcoholically fit into these stereotypes of alcoholics. Hello K. I saw that one coming. It's too bad too. Some of the folks from the Sober Recovery 12 Step Subforum fillet'd you like a fish and skinned you like a dear whenever you went stumbling into there. You've found a good home. Hope you can maintain that sobriety and keep that victim card handy.
That "Quote of the Day" where tiburon88 was being called out by an SR poster. I've got a tiburon88 post in here somewhere, if you want to see where that troll is coming from.A postback here to tiburon88 from SR. He's the one who says he walked into an A.A. meeting... sober, and said, "I hope you all relapse in here." Part of me think that's funny, but part of me would have been shoving my boot up part of tiburon's ass if he'd have said that in my meeting. Don't commit suicide though. Just go away.
_ says, "The other problem is that AA as a baseline encourages thinking that is extremely conducive to feelings of intense shame and moralizing. Someone I know actually hung himself after he got clean. It was after really having time to think about it and his behavior on meth, that he felt irredeemably evil. Suffice it to say, he was most certainly not.Suicide is complicated without addiction thrown into the mix. Throw in addiction and it gets exponentially moreso." A.A. does not teach shame, you idiots! It teaches surrender, courage, acceptance, forgiveness, reason, love, joy... Suicide is about apathy! Shit! If you're gonna kill yourself, go fucking drink instead. How many times have I said, "I'd rather have a bottle infrontofme than a frontal lobatomy"?
_ says, "Actually, I would guess that AA suicides are not usually “selfish” at all. The program is designed to instill fear, hopelessness and powerlessness – and often involves a huge amount of psychological bullying too. Sometimes the only control over his or her life that a person feels they have is the decision to end it." Surrender is the path to integrity. With surrender comes power. It's a mere matter of changing course. When people come into A.A., they aren't usually looking for suicide prevention. They are looking for help on getting sober. Duh!
_ says, " I learned not only to recognize my right to get angry, but the fact that it’s completely normal for people to get angry from time to time.(Like many people, I was brought up to believe that getting angry was always bad.) It’s interesting that AA has an open policy of telling people they are not allowed to feel or display anger – ever – even if they have very good cause. This in itself is almost bound to lead to depression, and that can possibly lead to suicide, because people will continue to feel anger but will repress it and beat themselves up about it. There are plenty of AA-ers posting very angrily all over the internet, though. I wonder if they pretend to be serene when they’re with their AA pals?" Having anger and dealing with resentments are two different things. I can get mad any fucking time I want to bitch! See? I don't act any certain way amongst those in A.A. If I'm in a meeting, I state my current experience on the topic. I tell the fucking truth. If I feel like cussing, I cuss. We cuss. WTFuck?
_ says, "says To find the smoking gun on AA and suicide, you only need to look at conference-approved AA literature. They admit AA members contribute to suicides in their conference approved pamphlet, “The AA Member — Medications & Other Drugs”. Page 13 states “AA members and many of their physicians have described situations in which depressed patients have been told by AAs to throw away the pills, only to have the depression return with all of its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.”http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-11_aamembersMedDrug.pdf" Here's one I want to look into further. I think it's possible that these claims are true and are a problem. Don't play fucking doctor in A.A. If I see someone doing it, I'm going to piss in their wheaties and tell the victim of it to not listen to such bullshit. My manic depressive friend is an example of this (the current one whom is still alive). I told him to listen to his doctor, find another meeting, and he did.
_ says, "_ says _, have a look at NICE on AA. And tell me what you think might be done.I think that AA has played a sort of big con trick on everyone, even those who don’t come into contact with it. They are just universally admired for their bravery. Therefore lots of people drink themselves to death rather than submit to it." IDK. Maybe you're right? What do we do about it? Maybe your secular programs will help people from commiting suicide once you get off your XA Cult Blog and go start some meetings for these folks to get some f2f attention... kind of like A.A., but less suicidal.
_ says, " I have struggled with anxiety and depression as far back as age 11. That’s why I drank–to feel better. That’s why I ever drank. I had been through treatment all through my teen years and AA as well. My emotional/mental (not intellectual) growth was severely damaged both by drinking and the brainwashing I got in AA. It really did a number on me. I had been hospitalized for suicidal ideation several times before I actually attempted it. I learned that talking about it=mental hospital and more steps. As I have said, it is or APPEARS to be a selfish act, but when you’re in the other person’s shoes, you can surely understand he or she is not capable of thinking straight. I had one focus in mind. I wanted the whole thing simply to STOP. I wanted to stop drinking; I wanted out of AA; I wanted out of my mental disorder, etc. I wanted my life back from all of these mental health bastards who had their hands all over it. I wasn’t living. I was simply existing, and I wanted out, end of story.It has taken ten years for me to regain control over my life, and while I am still on medication and seeing a therapist, I feel so much better to be free from AA and the sickness it perpetuates. I am soooo glad to have stumbled upon this blog and the orange papers, I can’t tell you how freeing that is. Peace." A.A. is not a babysitting service. Get a shrink.
_ says, "I think your post hilights the vital importance of what is done by this small group of people. People do die, and they die alot, and they kill others in drunk driving accidents, due to the misinformation that is promoted by this industry. People are told, unfortunately by people that are given unearned credibilty, that they have a progressive, incurable, and terminal disease. They also have “powerless” instilled in them. This industry does have the facts against them. They also cannot control the internet, although I am sure they would love to. When I was in the spin dry (2007), there were no phones, TV, internet services, and the only reading material was AA approved literature. As I look back now it said “CULT” all over it. It was in NO way medical treatment. Out of the other “inmates” I was “incarcerated” in the rehab, that I have remained in contact with, I am the only one that actually did stop drinking. I do feel it is vitally important to try to educate others about the con game the recovery industry is. It is great to see sites like this, and see others confront the industry. The industry does not have the facts behind it, and they crumble under intense questioning. That is why sites like Dr. Phil are so highly censored. We can change peoples thinking. It is a massive undertaking, but I am a firm believer that we save lives by what we do. I am just incredibly thankful that Agent Orange took the time to create his masterpiece." So, A.A. causes people to drive drunk too? Wow! Nice to have a scapegoat.
I had a friend who went into her car in the garage with her 2 older dogs turn on her car and killed herself and she said because she couldnt do the AA way and felt so much guilt. Then this girl at the furneal said and I quote” she couldnt follow a simple program” wow she blamed her and of course not AA/ AA blames you shames you. Alot of people who relapsed all the time felt like a failure in the rooms and killed thereselves. AA is not a program of thinking on your own. You are not allow to think on yourown remember you best thinking got you there. You are not allow to depend on you own thinking –AA insisted if you leave AA or dont get AA you will DIE. AA kills no doubt about that. AA people do not trust themselves and heavy dependency on there program, endless meetings . Abuse and lots of milious gossip. AA is self-center narrcisstic to the max. Every single person I have met in those rooms was NPD. I get sick when I think about the shame they induce on you. AA is a destructive-abusive… Leaving AA is the best thing that ever happen to me. I am sober and clean because I made a choice to do so. In the 4th step when you have had abuse as a child phycially-sexually you are to look at your part. bullshit. Trauma is not a light matter and a person (sponsor) telling you to see your part. is so FU. AA has been around for a long time due to them using the word God. AA is far away from true God. The enemy is clapping here not God. Dick B will burn in hell for trying to cram AA as christian roots. If he so christian then why not defend the bible and help christians through the bible. AA thinks its the bible. AA is false. Bill or Bob had a mistress-smoke like crazy and left some of his roylaties to her. He was never a christian he was antichrist. His big white light experince was because he was doing LSD. How can AAers overlook that. So many are decieved. The bible is strict that you cannot serve 2 masters nor idiolize or have any gospel you choose. It pisses me off when I hear AA say its christian roots BS. I really think that a book should be wrote more than one on there experinces of horror with AA. The truth will come out again its only a little amount of time. When I have heard in the rooms oh i Church it didnt work BS again. You mean you tried Jesus and didnt work. AA for me was the most fucked up program i have ever attended and that includes the people . SELFISH -extremly easily mind control. " Here we go again with the fucking preaching. Talk to my born-again Southern Baptist brother. You can save each other. We'll all go to hell together too. It'll be fun. So long as you lead the fucking way. I'd rather drink than hear your preaching.
_ says, "Plus they will tell you its divinely inspired and that they still cannot think on there own 20 plus years later.. still having a sponsor to think.. its very sad , very sad that AA kills your spirt and your God given right to think on your own and be empowered. AA is defeat no win they believe there are never to blame" Some of us have found something that works for us. Where should the blame come in? Blame is a weak demonic force that is conquered by Step fucking 1! Merely surrendering to some power greater than yourself will enable you to have a smigeon of hope, or at least seek it... then if followed up some action, you'll be so fucking beyond the forces of death. Now... if you're a certified loon or a chronically depressed individual and need some outside help, get it. In A.A., we're gonna talk about God. Deal. Cope.
_ says, "I remember AA largely as a tawdry melodrama. Sudden deaths of members through drink, drugs or suicide were just grist to the gossip mill or anecdotal illustrations to self-serving 12 step sermons (“There but for the grace of God, blah, blah, blah….”)It doesn’t surprise me that there is a high rate of suicide in AA, given that so many people have co-occurrring mental problems such as depression and they meet with so little understanding from those immersed in the AA dogma. Many, as k mentioned, drank to self-medicate an underlying mental health problem. I did." I didn't. I drank because I rather enjoyed it... the sense of comfort and ease that proceeded a few drinks and all. Call it dogma all you wish. If you want to start another program from the ground up or do something besides A.A., I give you my permission.
_ says, "I remember one guy at a step meeting saying that he wouldn’t go to a funeral of his friend who died alcoholic because he didn’t get the program, he wouldn’t do it.He also said in another meeting calling counsellors, other none AA based help." Well I guess he was a sick fuck. That's not very nice.
_ says, "AA is not interested in underlying and possibly fatal psychological issues that might drive people to drinking in the first place. They really do believe in divine interventionist miracles, and that praying to the god of AA will cure people, not just of alcoholism but of any other ‘spiritual defects’ – which is how they view psychological illnesses or disorders. I think we all have to recognize that we’re dealing with serious fundamentalist lunatics here. How often do convinced steppers stop to consider that other psychological issues might be anything to do with alcohol abuse, and how often do they advise newcomers to get some kind of proper help? (Answer: They don’t.) I even read McGowDog saying on another site that if people prayed more they wouldn’t get cancer (because someone he knows who smokes but prays hasn’t got cancer – yet). Apart from the obvious bollocks this is, it is incredibly insulting for people who have spent their whole life praying, have led a ‘spiritual’ life , and who still get cancer ( people like my mother, for instance. She led a damn sight more of a useful and ‘spiritual’ life than you ever seem destined to do, McDog or whatever your name is). Well, it’s hugely insulting and damaging to anyone at all, believer or non-believer."Who in the fuck are you to say that God isn't all. That God can't take care of other things? You can't tell me that a good doctor won't tell his/her patients to pray for their condition if they are a person of faith.
_have been a victim of a con trick. A horrible horrible brainwashing con-trick. It is indeed a version of hell to be an unwilling member says, "As for suicide in AA – I have seen it and I understand. People end up in AA because they can’t cope, and they are treated with methods that don’t help. As of yet, no one has the answer for the emotional agony that some of use used drugs and alcohol to cover up. They can get you clean, but then you’re just raw." Maybe what you were missing was power to live in the world and to have a happy satifying life. A.A. has a method to help you out... if you're a real alcoholic that is. If you've got other issues, you might want to table that and decide if you need/want A.A. or not. You can TRY to do A.A. to solve some problems and to feel good and comfortable and stuff. But you ain't gonna get comfortable is you do what's outlined. If after doing Step 7, you don't find some kind of renewed hope in your ability to have a great life, leave. Do something else or do it again and demand to find out what you missed.
_ says, "_, stick around. You . It is the people who have suffered who drive me to exposeaa. You are one, I am one. I used to read about extreme cults just in order to cheer myself up! I feel lucky that I found Orange before I got a sponsor, did a share, etc etc. Your rejection of aa cult dogma (it is a cult in my house, z!) is in fact incredibly mentally healthy in my humble opinion. " Welcome to your new fucking cult. Now go make vids about how guys want to do their own mother and describe which position he wants to get her in... that's real nice youtube entertainment. You guys are fucking liars and discredit yourselves with your over the top drama.
_ says, "By doing this AA handed me a “one size fits all” list of life problems to solve, taking the focus off of the real problems and creating new ones. I thought that these AA folks were the experts on addiction, and so I believed what they taught me about myself. I adopted all of the AA isms and started to believe that I was an inherently defective misfit who just couldn’t get anything right. The more I got involved in the steps… The deeper my depression became. I was looking at my past through the lense provided by AA and that made my future prospects seem much darker… That’s when I attempted suicide for the first time. I want to be clear… AA did not cause me to attempt suicide… AA did foster feelings of hopelessness and despair that contributed to my irrational decision. It’s pretty simple from my perspective. AA uses mind control and psychological manipulation to recruit new members.A small percentage of those who go to AA for help stick with the cult… A larger percentage never adhere and leave the cult without thinking too much about it… and a small percentage leave the cult in despair due to the self-defeatism they’ve learned as members… Many of these folks lose hope and commit suicide as a result. I can’t prove it, but my personal experience tells me that AA drives people to suicide."
_ says, "I think that kills this thread. Oh well… on to another." Is "one size fits all" the new anti/XAer buzz term?
Well, that solves it then. Anti/XAers pretty much think we in A.A. cause suicide. Bummer. I'd like to take some time going over these claims... treating them separate... considering some of them more carefully.
I didn't want to engage this topic over there. There are 38 of them and 1 of me.
I would like to jump ahead and address the mention of me in there. I don't remember specifically what I said about smoking and getting cancer or not getting cancer. I have been of the belief that people who smoke and don't worry about it seem to do better than those who smoke and worry about it or have a weak life-force. DRH said something about naturally grown tobacco correlated positively and those that use pesticides correlate negatively. IDK. I'm glad I've since quit all forms of tobacco and that my mom, a lung cancer survivor, has quit cigarettes as well. People who smoke stink anyway. Yuck.
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On a personal note; I know three people who commited suicide. My uncle...with booze, who had once committed a vehicular manslaughter and never lived it down, a guy who was manic depressive and I never saw it coming... very sad, and a guy who I used to work with. I'd partied with him at the bar many a time and eventually, after work some times. I saw him leave his family and shack up with women who would do coke with him and stuff. He got back with his family and I thought that was a very happy ending. He got hooked up with meth and soon thereafter, he hung himself. At the funeral, I discovered he had molested his own daughter.
That's what the fucking truth looks like, folks. It's not cause effect. You have to look at the full context of things. If you think that's psychobabble, it's not. I'm just so fucking far over your heads. Learn how to see the truth in stuff and quit blaming others for your miserable lives. Go help someone out. Go volunteer to Meals on Wheels or something. Get outta your negative heads.
Trying to discredit A.A. with this Orange-induced lunacy is... ludacris.
"One mom at a time"?That was a nice touch. I'm sure it went exactly like that. You had a member named Ben, with few teeth, he was a big book thumper, but he hurled all the slogans at you, drove a 10 speed. You say he had a really nice 10-speed? They make 21 speeds now... since for over 20 years. Are you saying his bike is as old as his teeth? Are you judging Ben's material accomplishments?
If you knew the antics ofBen so well, why did you take your mom there? Did you and your mom come up with the "Motherfuckers Anonymous" blast and discuss these sexual positions together? Did she help you carve out the "One mom at a time" plaque?
That's really sick shit you folks resort to. Let's see how many antiAAer claims you punched with that one vid, shall we?
Ben was there with his "disciples"... his few teeth... and his 10 speed bicycle... in the fucking snow...
Ben hurls MOTR Treatment Center slogans at you and you pull out that big old Brown Stamp collection...
Betty... recovering crack whore with a nasty cough... but you sit right there next to her of course
You somehow know she used dirty needles because don't all reformed crack whores brag about this?
Oh, and she spits when she talks...
And you have to hold hands with her because you are always stuck sitting next to her... during that Lord's Prayer...
The Lord's Prayer is a "spiritual prayer", right?
Ben determines what's spiritual and what's religious
Momma's boy tells us how a Big Book Discussion meeting is just like a good ole Southern Baptist service!
Betty knows the difference between God and Gawd! too.
Betty told you to shut your mouth and listen... Sure she did! We believe ya!
Ben threatened you with death and hurled a "Fake it till you make it blast!" Wow, the Quinella!
Ben knows a lot about A.A. and he knows what you should and shouldn't do... a good sponsor has tons of advice.
Momma's Boy is gonna go back to church, but not if Ben doesn't approve! After all, he's got that killer 10 Speed and few teeth!
Momma's Boy asked Ben for permission to quit smoking... told to go try to quit jerking off instead
Ole Betty has good advice too... meetings, meditation, and masterbation... sound advice from a Crack Whore who spits...
Got them meds, because isn't every AAer dually diagnosed? Got them meds and need to have old Ben tell me to stop using them... he drives that killer 10 speed and only has 3 teeth... in the snow... he's gotta be my favorite mentor...
Tried to kill yourself, Ben told you that you were selfish... and somehow wound up doing a Youtube vid! Wow! God is great, huh?
Them alkies in A.A. are sure powerless... and also liars, cheats and thiefs...
So there's momma's boy... with his mom... next to the spitting ex-Crack Whore... with Ben shouting slogans to you... and now you've got motherfucker talking about how he'd like to do his mom.
Unusual meeting... but you brought mom along...
Mom was shocked...
Momma's boy was gonna be the hero and steer the meeting back to the proper topic... experiences related to alcohol... but old Ben told you to not take other people's inventories...
Then Ben follows that up with a "Your best thinking got you here" blast
Old Ben told you to sit down, shut up, and listen... and because you've known him for all of two weeks, you take his advice.
Nice opportunity to pimp the "Small Book" and Agent Orange at http://www.orange-papers.org/, because... this guy has a lot of hope for drunks, right?
Something clicked, then Momma's Boy realized that A.A. is a religious cult... or a religion when the courts make a judgement on it... but back to a cult when dealing with vulnerable drunks... because who doesn't like to fuck with vulnerable drunks?
Old momma's boy... even though he only knew toothless 10-speed riding in the snow Ben for 14 meetings, ... has been to thousands of A.A. meetings... so Momma's Boy has 5 and a half years of meetings under his belt... but has not yet lost the desire to stop drinking, had been called a "chronic relapser"... was told that he didn't work the steps properly... from what appears to be a real step working group! Wow! Surprise.
Momma's boy left the meeting, and everything fell into place for him! But he just had to go back and tell old Ben about his new success... of staying sober by staying away from A.A.
Old Ben got pissed.
Momma's Boy felt the need to take just a little more of toothless, 10-speed driving Ben's advice...
Old momma's boy has been sober ever since he left A.A., but he's still thinking about how cold his saved seat must be by now...
Momma's Boy's 3 questions for you;
Is A.A. really working for you?
How well do you really know these people?
Are A.A. meetings really a safe place for me/us to be?
Now... A.A., a dangerous religious cult, posses itself as the "only" answer for your drinking problem.
So, do XAers/antiAAers mean us harm? Of course not! They're good people. They are truthful. They bring up good fair discussions and shed light on some of our problems and weaknesses without embellishment and exaggeration. They're fresh and never ever repeat themselves. They never exploit or take advantage of the plight of incest victims, people with chronic mental illnesses, manic depressives, schizophrenics like my brother who aren't alcoholics and don't go to A.A. meetings anyway, etc.
I'm starting to think that sobriety is like a rubber band. Poor innocent and motivated suffering wet alcoholics are just somehow stuck, get sent to A.A., since it's the only solution and they're forced to A.A. from the sock-puppet American Judicial system, and once they get to A.A., they suffer horid religious indoctrination, 13th stepping, mental anguish and punishment... but when they leave A.A., they go on to live healthy normal, useful, well-balanced, lucrative, sober, coffee-free, tobacco-free, sugar-free, fart-free, 10 speed-free, spit-free lives, and can go back onto their anti-depressant, manic-depressive, paranoid scizophrenic pills! But they don't cheat on their wives and they don't drink fucking coffee or smoke fucking cigarettes or say that Goddamned Lord's Prayer!
Sign me up!
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ExposeAA, and his ilk... like to talk about how A.A.ers get off on the suffering of those who don't do the program as described, those who leave A.A., and especially XAers/antiAAers encountered on the web.
I say that's not true and just not even logical. We started off as wet drunks ourselves, remember? Now we're to feel guilty about achieving sobriety with the method presented to us?
A.A. is working well for me. It really is. I put a lot less into it timewise as many do. I do 1 or 2 meetings a week unless I have time and a reason to go to another one. I spend time with other A.A.s for leisure, program, church, spiritual retreats, weddings, funerals, for lunch/dinner, household projects/moving, etc.
How well do I know these people? Some I've known since 1994. That's before some of you little crumb snatchers have been pissing your pants.
Are A.A. meetings a safe place to be? Just what kind of protection do real alcoholics need? Are you vulnerable in meetings because you're young, female, experiencing other problems than alcoholism? IDK. There are usually many different kinds of meetings in a decent sized town. Do you want to go to a meeting in broad daylight at a well-attended meeting in some very public strip-mall somewhere? Somewhere that's not out in the boondocks in some church basement? Find what is comfortable. Bring your APBT and your mace. IDK. Never been an issue for me. I heard a guy in a forum discribe a meeting this way;
"There is one group where I live that is like a bar without the alcohol. They fight, yell, and basically use the room for everything but recovery. Its known as the shoebox. Filled with slippers, loafers, and sneakers. Some are sicker than others, and that becomes very apparent in some groups. "
So what I want to know is this; us pertetrator proAAers are to feel guilty about how we treat our poor abused suffering antiAAer/XAer counterparts... when we just know where they stand? Or where they sit, actually... on their asses on their comfy couches in their air-conditioned homes behind their nice cozy computers.
So much suffering going on here, it just breaks my fucking heart.
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So... we've been called out on our accountability by some avid anti/XAer. FTG to be exact. I saw her post in the mentalhelp site. She's ranting about her wonderful article about how AAers are only concerned with their own asses. That makes sense, right? Harm others and God will keep ya sober.
Here's her post and my hopefully allowed response to it. You get the inside scoop here. BTW, I left a response to exposeAA on that disturbing vid today. I have to be honest. It really did rattle me. It had me wondering for a sec... "What if A.A. really is a cult? How blind am I? Should I run from it now and not look back? Are we that harmful? Is there no God? Is there a God, but He hates me and the likes of A.A.?
So I confronted the vid with an open mind and... he's just fucking with us! Look at all the contradictions in that one vid? But... I manned up and asked him to answer me straght out; is it true or is it false? We'll see. If it's true, that meeting/group/individual needs to be dealt with.
I shouldn’t have to pay taxes for schools. My kids are grown.Why should I call the cops? I don’t even know those people.Health Care Reform? I’m healthy and I don’t want to pay for anyone else’s problems!I don’t know why you say such hateful things about Father Bollier. He never touched me.Well, so what if he was getting bullied or whatever? He didn’t have to be there.Of course she got raped. Did you see what she was wearing?You should have seen this woman slapping her kid around in the store today! No, of course I didn’t. It’s none of my business.Climate change? Whatever. I don’t see anything. (Besides, I’ll be dead by the time California floats away.)We really shouldn’t publicize how many children have been killed or have died because of the Iraq war, because it will just erode our morale.I won’t speak to whether or not people get abused in AA. All I know is that it saved my life.Dear AA Members,What profound level of spiritual awakenedness allows you to respond to trenchant criticism of AA – and to the alarming evidence of its lack of accountability and oversight – by saying that the only thing that really matters is that it worked for you?
I’m only asking, because I’ve heard variations on this response so many times. It seems to be the last word
— the AA Trump Card.
I’ve been mulling this over for a couple of days, but just had to ask, finally, after reading this AAs comment on gratitude;
I live a fantastic life today………… If AA & 12steps can be construed as religious or you have a personal dislike of it…..
then I am sorry AA was or is a bad experience for you……….
Regardless of how others percieve AA…… all I know is it saves my ass and many of my dear fellowship friends……
Well, AAs, thanks in advance for your detailed responses,
ftg
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Now, my response; (Have to put it here because ... I can't respond to ftg due to censorship)
No ftg - McGowdog - June 7th, 2010
No FTG. What you and some of your minions have cooked up to be the "Soup du Jour" in XA and antiAA, the idea was stolen from someone else earlier in the week and regurgitated and pimped by you, as has been your XA/antiAA stomping ground.
We know where your website is. It's like Australia and old mens' underwear. You have gr8 support amongst your minions and you have a gr8 following. But we see what happens to those who are proAA. They are cast out as vicious, cultlike, zealots. At least here, both sides have a voice.
Now, I'd like to direct some of you to... not my website, I'm proAA and I'm nasty. Not a popular combination... but at least I show accountability... but I'd like to direct you to a youtube vid that some of you anti/XAers love;
In this vid, a newcomer claims to take their own mom to a meeting and horrible things happen in this meeting. I say it's a lie and it's beyond embellished. It belittles people who are victims to incest and there are 32 other claims that do nothing but contradict each other. It's a bunch of lies. But some of you get a kick out of it.
A.A. is still one beggar trying to show another where there's bread. Our respect to your alternatives will become apparent just the moment we learn to brush aside the bs.
Anybody?
P.S. I'm sober today and I've not harmed anybody today. Can you say the same?
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"all - - Jun 7th 2010 "P.S. I'm sober today and I've not harmed anybody today. Can you say the same?" that question says it all.
Yes. It does say it all. It says you're a little ankle biter chihuahua dog without the balls to put your username down.
Where's your accountability and whom have you helped today? All the poor people who you've saved from A.A.? Your pitch is stale. Your goose is cooked. The jig is up.
What do you have to offer alcoholics besides A.A.? Pointing fingers at proAAers? Does that keep a drunk from taking the next drink? Honestly?
If you can stay sober on mind control, do it.
If you can stay sober on "Love thy Neighbor", do it.
Let me use your own claims against you; If a method works for a person to get and stay sober, how could it be wrong?
That somebody in A.A. would harm another person on this planet and have that work for them is just plain and absolute bullshit.
Go peddle your wares someplace else anti/XAer scumbags.
How important is a sponsor? Very important. You need someone to shit all over. That's why you're called "pigeon".
Do like me; find a sponsor who denies being your sponsor. Or at least after I did a set of steps with him.
A.A. is one drunk helping another drunk. But one of those drunks... can be either one I guess... preferably the more sober one... has to know what the fuck they are doing. That sort of helps. They need to at least be able to do what no alcoholic can do... come to their admissions and seek the truth about themselves.
It's easy to tell the truth about someone else... especially for the alky.
Girl at store checkout; "So... how do you know that I'm single?" Drunk at store checkout; "Because you're ugly."
See? That's easy for the alcoholic. What's hard for the alcoholic is to say stuff like... "I don't know" ... or "I was wrong. I harmed you. Here's how..." or... "This is what I'm going to do and this is what I'm not going to do..."
After you've done a set of steps, you're free. So should be "your sponsor". Stop shitting on him/her and go find someone else or something else to go shit on. Why in God's green earth you want to be hogtied to another human being and under their thumb for eternity sounds completely fucked up to me... and unnecessary.
What I need is an informed recovered drunk or two who... this is assuming two things here;
1) I want to get and stay sober for good and all 2) I'm gonna do A. fucking A. mutherfucker... not B. fucking B. or C. fucking C.
whose done a set of steps 1 thru 12... and can ask me the questions to ask myself... as to what the hell a real alcoholic is and whether I even am one or not.
You may not even be an alcoholic. If you're not an alcoholic or I don't think you are... or if I think you may be but ain't done drinking, I won't work with you anyway.
And if it turns out you are a real alcoholic, it's my job to show you what that is and isn't and to steer you into the direction of seeing that for yourself.
Then and only then... can we get you to look at the prospect of what the A.A. solution is... God. That's right! God. If you want that solution or even are willing to seek God, I'll kindly point you into that direction at every turn. That's it.
If you want to call that a sponsor, so be it.
After that, you should find a good group that does steps to be "accountable" to. I'd trust no one. Find out for yourself if these selfish fucks have a life worth living or not. If they don't, steer clear of them. You don't owe them nothing. Tip your hat to them and be polite, but keep your hand on your god damned wallet. If they walk the talk, then try walking with them. If you get good results, then continue on and talk to other... like minded folks about it.
You kind of need someone to tell you to write a 4th step and you can find brilliant directions on that in your SR forum under the Step 4 icon... any thread started by McGowdog is pretty good... IMHO. Someone whose willing to ask you to bring them a piece of inventory and then line you out on a 3 or 4 column inventory is what I would call getting your money's worth.
You also need someone to 5th step with. After that, you need someone to ask you, "Done with all those amends yet? Quit fucking around and getr done." Then you need someone who will ask you, "How's that prayer and meditation coming?" If you're doing it, they'll rap with you. If you're not, they'll say, "Well when you go do that, we'll have something to rap about. Otherwise, talk to the hand."... and walk away.
You do all of that, then you can become one of the elite... or as the antiAAers say, the 5 percenters. Realizing, of course, that you are just like the 75 Percenters who do "nothing" to get and stay sober... besides just deciding with their own willpower to just "quit".
So it's up to you... do it the hard way... or the easy way.
Good question. Thank you for bringing that topic to the cyber world. Bet I answered it differently than about 99.8% of the folks out there huh? I'm unique.... just like everybody else. A Caveat; if you make your way through the traditional religionists and the spiritually timid, you may find yourself actually passionate about this deal... Not the "not drinking" deal, but the "path to God" deal. You do that, and you'll be rare indeed.You will then be confronted by the "haters" and maybe... God forbit... the seekers. You may one day find yourself on the other side of this coin; "Will you be my sponsor?" What a laugh.
I don't think so. Here's my opinion about this; Tell the 3-strikes-you're-out-convicted-meth-head to go start his own secular drug program and quit blaming the courts, POs, cops, DOC, the treatment center, etc. for your sore brown starfish.
You're a druggie punk and you and your lawyer found a little loophole in the system thanks to the 1st Amendment. Good for you.
Conclusion; if you're an atheist, don't use A.A. or N.A., C.A., etc.
Request; please go out and start a secular alternative and take your atheists with you. If your secular program can be the least bit altruistic, maybe you'll encourage going to the jails, hospitals, courts, treatment centers, etc. and finding your own kind and offering up a place for them to get clean/sober/etc. without the use of God or Higher Power or whatever it is you find offensive and get on with NOT BREAKING THE FUCKING LAWS OF OUR FINE NATION UNDER GOD YOU FUCKING HEATHENS!
So you win! A.A. is a religion and A.A. is about God. Now go fuck yourselves, but don't expect tax exemption for your newly created religion, Atheism. Well actually, I could care less.
What I care about is the untreated meth-head who is looking to rape your daughter and snatch the purse from your wife at the local 7-11 and drag her 30 feet while she tries to steal her own purse back but you're in an 8 day spun-out meth binge as you drive off.
Now maybe, just maybe, A.A., N.A., C.A., and other God-based 12 Step programs can stop bending over backwards to fill the needs of the misbehaving world. Go ahead. Start your own programs and leave A.A. alone. Go now and find an empty building in your local strip mall, get a few tables, a few chairs, a coffee pot or a tea pot, a few slogans, a few secular druggies and/or drunks, and a hat, and start a meeting. Run your Godless program anyway you want, make mistakes, come up with traditions to tighten things down, and maybe you'll soon surpass A.A. and sway the courts and hospitals to send some clients your way.
You ought to have a decent base already to go now; Agent Orange followers, Stinkin' Thinkin' followers, the Blame Guys, about 90% of the folks over at Sober Roverery...
Long Form;No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.
Short Form;Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
I don't owe anybody an explanation. My actions and my words may be helpful to somebody, but likely not many. But that's ok. If I could get something like 48% approval, I could be President. Besides, the only approval I want is my own and some of my peers. The only ones I need to even appeal to is those who are real alcoholic and who want to do a certain something about it. Outside of that, it's all just chatter.
I'm going to a job interview tomorrow morning. I've made a recent career out of looking for jobs while extremely underemployeed by my brother's company. Eight long months ago, my mom, dad, and myself were laid off... all working for my bro, who's corporate office is in another state. We worked at a warehouse that he had built in my parents' hometown. Prior to that, my mom and dad worked out of their home and garage and a storage shed trying to help my bro do business. So now, he has one sales manager, himself, and a part-time accountant to try to get the business back up and running. I've been doing consultant telecommuting... while being on unemployment.
My A.A. folks call me "bum". I've been laid off before... for about 7 months. But this time, it's been 8 months and counting. Not good. I went to a retreat weekend before last, and at a 10th step workshop, I brought up the unemployment thing, and my old sponsor, Dr. Death, said to me, "Quit lying to yourself. You're a bum. Get a job. Any damn job, if that's what you want to do. Flip burgers. It don't effing matter. Or be a bum. That's ok with me too, so long as you're ok with being a bum."
I'd heard it before. Didn't shock me a bit. I'd like to justify that the job market in my Southern Colorado town has always sucked and even moreso now. I've considered flipping burgers. I've noticed that I'm kind of old for that. I've considered working the graveyard at the 7-11... more my speed. Dangerous job? Not my dream job for sure. To get my unemployment, I've applied for 5+ jobs/week as is required by the state, some in person, some on line, some cold call, etc. I've been to several job fairs, workshops, etc. I was told that I have a very good resume. I did it myself. I have about 7 different versions of it. I like doing resumes and cover letters for various jobs. If the job market didn't suck so bad now, I'd do that for a living, as a hobby even. I was working under the table for a contractor doing home remodelling, flooring, painting, even plumbing... until I made the state max for needing to claim taxes. He worked under the table himself, as he was a laid off steel worker. Then he went back to work himself, so... I helped do a floor here and there, but I do NOT want to install floors. I don't have the knees for it, my hip hurts, my shoulder gets messed up, I'm allergic to epoxy. Waa.
I have continuted to do tech reports for my bro here and there, at 35 to 45 bucks a pop. If I got 3 or 4 of those a day, I'd be in Fat City. But then again, that would mean my bro is installing so many ESD floors that he'd have enough to hire us all back and I'd have an office to go back to. In my latter days with my full-time employment, even Carol noticed my frequency of posting had increased. Work was slow and I was goofing off. I was making about 35 cold calls per day trying to help the sales folks generate business for us and my bro wanted me to up it to 135 per day. I wouldn't have minded the cold calls, but I was ... we were generating nothing! I'd worked sales before and a 30% daily sales average was a darned good day and 20% was a bad day unless you had over 100 stops. But to get a goose-egg day after day after day... it was understandable that we got laid off.
I don't feel too attractive as a bum. I've had the opportunity to make many more meetings, pitch new drunks, gone to hospitals and the local CDU, and most importantly, kept a clean house and sometimes have dinner waiting for my working wife. She doesn't call me a bum. But... she gets into fear when I'm like this. She is glad that I don't travel like I used to, but ... what if she lost her job? We'd be on the street. We'd be finished financially, materially, etc. We live paycheck to paycheck pretty much. What I get on unemployment is barely less than what I got with my bro when you subtract off the money I spent to drive 90 miles each day to and from work. There are advantages to living near work or being able to telecommute. But I miss the drive. I miss the feeling of showing up by 8:00 am and having an office to go to. I've even had to back off a noon meeting I'd been going to as I think other non-employeed people frequent there and some with jobs leave early... I'm envious of their cool work shirts and their name tags and their keys, company vehicles, etc.
I've had to work out lately as I've gotten so out of shape. I recently had a major illness, bronchitis, and have eased into running again, on a Proform treadmill. I got the bicycles out, but it's been to windy to ride the last week. This may sound retarded, but you sometimes have to take a day off of job-hunting. It's not like I've been fishing and Harley riding every day. I haven't fished once this year as I haven't renewed my liscence yet, nor is my Harley running. I think I need to have the generator rebuilt again... forgot to polarize it after a battery replacement last year. Stupid.
I saw some pictures of me 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago and I don't feel to attractive now. Not physically, mentally, spiritually. ... "asking especially that it be divorced of self pity, dishonest, or self-seeking motives..."
So, do you think A.A. is religious? Do you think alcoholism is a disease? Do you think that alcoholics are powerless over booze?
Here's my take on these 3 points above;
1) A.A. is not a religion any way nor any how. The only morality that I work with/experience is this... "Does it work?" If it works, then it's moral. If it doesn't work then it's immoral. I've seen atheist get this deal. I've seen atheists not get it. I've seen religious zealots get this deal. I've seen religious zealots get dead. I'd sit here and defend that A.A. is not secular and inclusive of Muslims and Jews, but to be honest, I didn't think that many Jewish alcoholics existed. Do you know any Jewish alcoholics? I certainly don't know of any Muslim alcoholics. I know of a Japanese guy who is recovered alcoholic. Now this is weird, because I thought the Karate Kid's instuctor was the only drunk. I thought Japanese people were too disciplined to be alcoholic. Mr. Miyagi showed signs of extreme drunkenness... but only to mourn the anniversary death of his family... so he was probably just a potential hard drinker/situational drinker. So my Japanese friend... how can he be alcoholic? Either that discipline thing is a myth or maybe he has Mexican blood mixed in. Maybe he's real alky. So maybe there ARE some Muslims and Jews mixed in with us... but SINCE A.A. ISN'T A FUCKING RELIGION, I WOULDN'T FUCKING KNOW! What a stupid fucking claim! I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree.
2)Alcoholism is not a disease... to my knowledge. Show me where brother Bill said it was a disease and we'll rap about it. Wait a minute... how can one claim that it's a religion, then in the same breath claim that we claim it's a disease too. Is AIDS a religion? How about Herpes? Syphilus? Gonorrhea? Cancer? So, CHAGS, basically? Are these religions? Well I think not... honestly. But, the pizza and pancake diet would be in order. A cure? No... but it's something you can slide under the door! Ha ha bad joke. Spiritual disease? Go tell your doctor that you have a spiritual disease and ask him/her how much they charge for a spiritual experience. So personally, I don't think alcoholism is a disease. Been a while since I've been drunk. On my last occasion, I can recall being told my "behavior" was socially unacceptable. So... it involves a behavior situation as well. In A.A., I do know this; we do not treat the body. The problem is said to "center in our mind." So... we go to our thoughts for recovery? No... not that either. We inventory our resentments, our fears, our harms done others... share that, find our part, ask God to take the good and bad and remove from us what He sees fit... what He feels is standing in the way of our usefulness to others. Does that sound like a physical illness? Not to me either. It sounds... for lack of a better word, spiritual.
3)Powerlessness. Such a dirty word. There is Power. Power exists. Fo sho. But am I the source of that power? I think not. I, being a spiritual person, believe that Power comes from God. Power gives. Force takes. In the realm of form, no being on the earth can create itself. No rock can will itself into existence. Beyond the realm of form is a level of awareness which is perfect, always was, and always will be. But back down here on planet earth, how is it with you and booze? Can you handle your booze? Drink like a gentleman? Drink like a proper lady? Can you drink two and stop? Can you do this over and over in succession? Two a night, no more, no less, for 30 days straight? I cannot. I never have been able to do that that I can recall... since I was 10 years old. You can. So are you powerless over alcohol? No, you're not. I am. That's my experience. Now, I can "just not drink." But I don't need to "just not drink". Just not drink implies that I have "Power" over booze. I never had power over booze. But I do honestly believe that God endows me a position of "neutrality, safe and protected."
I don't want to drink booze. Booze is said to be "cunning, baffling, powerful." Booze did something for me. You? Maybe not. But it did something for me and I've found a sufficient substitute. Have you? Is A.A. this power? Do I need to go to A.A. and bring in all the recruits I can grab? Do I need A.A. to grow and grow and grow? Is it a numbers game? Well in my hometown, a few meetings I sometimes go to are growing and growing! It must be like the best show in town for a buck! There are more meetings than a town could need, too. I shit you not. I'm telling you the fucking truth. The noon meeting I go to from time to time has 30 people minimum, sometimes, it's hard to find parking. 40 people is not unusual, and that's Monday through Saturday. And there are two other noon meetings in my town of 100,000 people. Then there are 6:30 am meetings, 7:00 am meetings, 6:00 pm meetings, 8:00 pm meetings, 10:00 pm candlelight meetings. There must be 1,000 regulars in this town. Growing fellowship? Not really. Some come and go. A.A. is not growing exponentially from what I can tell. When you're new, you're welcomed right in. But after a while, you have to elbow your way in to get this deal. That's the way I honestly see it anyway. Fact, A.A. has survived its founding generation and several since. It's here to stay, deal with it. I think most meetings are too big. Too many people with no direction. No power behind the numbers. In my group, 4 to 8 people on the average and it's got more power to it than most groups of 30 or more. Power can be felt and it's usually a result of a group of people with a common problem seeking a common solution... that and a little tiny bit of discipline and direction and Power just shows up. It can be felt and used. We insist on nothing less. Now... you get a group like ours that's 40 to 60 people, and you've got one hell of an A.A. group. It's so powerful there, I have a hard time announcing my name. But individually, we're just ordinary folks. So... Power comes from God.
Comments on an antiAA blog;
****** says ****’s post is a good one. I agree with much of it. I see AA participation as pretty flat. I think that AA will go along as it is for years.
The article found by *** is excellent; there is a lot in it that merits thought
My retort; I thought the post was shitty, the article long-winded and whiney, and I agree with only one thing... the fact that A.A. is here to stay. Good A.A., bad A.A., don't matter. Don't get drunk and stupid, break the law, and get your right to drink booze taken from you in the first place. If you can handle your booze and drink responsibly, what's your thoughts about A.A.? Nothing. Only A.A.s and antiA.A. give a shit.
Next comment:
For me the most toxic element is the assurance that if you leave you will inevitably be screwed one way or the other. The more I think about it the more reprehensible I find this statement especially considering the vulnerable condition of people when they first came through the doors myself included.
Same commenter;
I agree I often questioned why in the 3 1/2 years I was there why attendence never seemed to go up. The usual response was “most people cant get honest” or “we are the lucky ones”
My retort;
I pity you. So, you had to suffer A.A. for 3.5 long years... you should now be celebrating your time away from A.A. and time now usefully spent in antiA.A.
THAT'S IT! GIVE US YOUR ANTI-A.A. BIRTHDAY! How long has your worthless ass been resenting A.A.? You've got 5 years now! Great! Keep not coming back!
Next commenter;
There is also the complication of these individuals claiming to be authorities and claim their program is remarkably successful.
There is a common notion that judges, psychologists, etc are frequently members of the AA faith. I do not necessarily consider that to be as prevalent as social services not knowing what else to do with people that chronically abuse substances.
There are many drawbacks to putting this religion in charge of an alleged disease.
My retort:
Hmmm... putting a religion in charge of an alleged disease? Now there's a thought stopper!
Well, I was reflecting on the Easter Season, which is the most holy time of the year for me. There is so much good stuff to ponder, the ultimate example of unselfishness showed by Jesus at the least and the redemtion from sin and resurection from the dead and the whole God became man thing, if you are that much of a believer.
I figured I'd go over and see what our atheist anti-AA friends were talking about during this special time of year. And look what I happened upon......a link to this argicle http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/apr/02/janesville-school-district-reviewing-its-12-step-r/ which is about some group 'Freedom From Religion Foundation' (I know, how unAmerican is that ?) who is taking the Janesville WI school district to task for recommending 12 step attendance (along with other sober social and family activities) for high school kids who have drug and alcohol problems. And to make matters worse the special school meets in .....are you ready, gasp, a church....omg.
I do think it's great that while the Christian world celebrates one of the most unselfish acts of all time, the atheists are showing the world just how petty and selfish they are. Well, they do that every time they open their mouths, but the contrast just warms my heart.
So what kind of organization does FTG and MA and the anti-AA crew look up to ? How is this group making the world a better place ?
Let's take a look at some of the issues they regularly work on :
"Churches Used as Polling Places A church is being used as a polling location. Is that legal?"
Yes, you read it right. The atheists are so bigoted and vile that they feel dirty if they even have to step foot in a church. Answer, complain and get an absentee ballot. Bonus, you won't have to go out in public and be around other prople's germs. It's a win/win situation.
"Churches and Political Lobbying Activities A church is participatiing in political lobbying. What can I do about it?"
Well, if you don't go to church how do you know ?? Churches can not endorse specific candidates or party's but they can speak on issues and such. Grow the fuck up and stop complaining because someone is publicly disagreeing with you. BTW been to any mosques lately ??
"Child Custody and Religion A court has ordered that my ex-spouse has the right to take my son/daughter to a church, religious school or other religious event with which I disagree. What are my rights?"
Well, you mostly have the right not to spread your legs /pin her locks if your partner is a theist. Once the deed is done, it's too fucking bad for you if the childs parent wants to take the kids to church when he/she has visitation/custody. Here's a thought, grow the hell up and start thinking about your child instead of yourself. Oh, that's right, an atheist can't do that. Sorry, I forgot.
"Church Bulletin Discounts A store is offering a discount or promotion for bringing in a church bulletin. Is that legal?"
It turns out it's not legal. You can't sell your goods in the way you like, in the good ole' US of A. Imagine that. Of course I'd just go up to the manager and tell him I went to church and forgot the bulletin and get the discount, if I wanted it. But, then I'd probably have a church bulletin anyway because I don't feel my eyes burn when I look at a chruch.
"Consumer Complaints I am tired of stores and restaurants playing gospel music. I feel this violates my right to 'freedom of religion.' Is there anything that can be done about it?"
LOL !!! Find another store, dick weed. My 'rights' are being violated because I don't like the music they play in the store.....this is great. Hey, do you think the store owner, employees and other customers have any rights or did they make 'rights' just for you ??
"Court-Ordered Participation in A.A. Information for Prisoners and Probationers Required to Attend A.A., N.A., or Other Religiously Centered Drug and Alcohol Rehab Programs"
Right. The alternative would be jail. Since that's where you belong anyway, please complain about AA and serve your time. It would show the world how true your 'moral compass' points.
"HUD Housing Violations I live in a HUD-subsidized housing. What are my rights to avoid religious activities and decorations?"
Yup, 'rights' to avoid religious activites. You have them, so go ahead and ruin it for everyone else. That, again, will prove what a great moral person you are. You fucking baby.
"Nativity Displays on Public Property Are Christmas displays a violation of the First Amendment?"
Yes, these atheists want to shit all over Christmas. Use it as a teaching oppurtunity to explain to your kids what scum bags these people are. I seem to remember reading the Puritans banned Xmas also. How did that work out for them ??
"Prayer at Senior Centers They make us listen to prayer before we eat lunch at public-funded senior centers. Help!"
I want my free lunch now, I don't want to have to wait 10 seconds while someone prays !!!! Here's a hint...when everyone else is praying, start eating. They won't know because they have their eyes closed.
"Religious Tests for Public Office Why do some states require a religious test for public office? Isn't that unconstitutional?"
Unfortunatley, it is. But you may as well complain and donate to this shit brain organization anyway.
"Good Friday Closings Is it legal for government offices and public schools to close for Good Friday?"
Oh Uh......they close for Martin Luther King day too.....buy atheists only spew their bigotry on certain groups. They like to consider themselves friendly with the Blacks even though I don't see any smiling black faces on the website.
"Prayers at Government Meetings Is an Establishment Clause violation occurring at government meetings?"
This is great because the atheist actually quote (mis-quote of course) The Bible on this one :
'Even the Jesus of the New Testament condemned public prayer: “Enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret” (Matt. 6:5-13). Observing a strict separation of church and state offends nobody..'
You know what else offends nobody, you keeping your fat, white atheist ass at home.
"Immigration Oaths I want to become a U.S. citizen, but am not religious and don’t want to take a religious oath. What are my rights?"
You have the right not to become a US citizen.
"Jury Oaths I've been called for jury duty. Or, I need to testify at a trial. Am I going to have to take a religious oath or place my hand on a bible?"
You are wise in not touching the Bible as your hands will burn. Best stay home and hide under the bed.
"Marriage License Oaths When we went to apply for our marriage license, the county clerk told us we had to state an oath to "God." What can we do?"
You mean you have to swear an Oath to a God you don't believe exists ? Better just shack up. It's easier.
"Bible Distribution in Public Schools Can Gideons pass out bibles at my child's public school?"
Just say no ?
"Churches Renting Public Schools A church is meeting in a public school. What can I do about it?"
Ummmm, don't go to the service ?
"Pledge of Allegiance Do I (or my child) have to participate in the religious Pledge of Allegiance in my public school?"
It's good that you don't participate in the pledge since you aren't an American. Best let everyone know.
"Prayers in School What is the law about prayers in public schools?"
Bla, bla, bla......God forbid you should have to hear someone pray.
"Religious Music My child's choir is singing religious music. Is that legal?"
