If you don't believe me

It's true! I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this

Bill is dead!

AA is invalid because Bill cheated on Lois!

AA doesn't work because Bill got rich off the work of other people.

Bill did LSD, Bill was crying out for whiskey on his deathbed. Bill smoked like a train and died from emphysema. Bill was a Con-Man. Bill Plaigerized the Book.

What the hell does any of that have to do with anything?????

Seems that AA bashers have attended the Karl Rove school of Debating Techniques

Lesson #1: The first part of any response should be to personally attack the opponent.

Lesson #2: Put incorrect words into your opponent's mouth.

Lesson #3: Misconstrue your opponent's message purposely so as to build a straw man argument that is easier to knock down than your opponent's real argument.

Lesson #4: Take all of the weaknesses in your own position and project them onto your opponent, whether or not true. Later when the opponent picks up how the weakness is really yours, you can point to their unoriginality in throwing it back at you.

Lesson #5: Rather than addressing your opponent's points head-on, insult their intelligence instead and extrapolate your claim of their lack of intelligence as being the reason why their points fail.

Lesson #6: Purposely mislabel your points as "fact", so that it is harder for your opponent to question it.

Lesson #7: Repeat your lie over and over until it sinks in as a possible truth.

What's with all the A.A. bashing?

antiAA819, you can go to my blog and bash it and A.A. all you want.



If your comments are not antiAA bs and otherwise biased against me, they'll stick.



It's my blog.



That's right.



I make the rules.



It's where I stick my proAA stuff.

It's my attempt to state what's right about A.A.

I know there's a bunch wrong with A.A.

I know about Orange and Stinkin' Thinkin' and now the likes of you.

But tell us what's so great about SMART or RR or LR or whatever. Some of you can just choose to quit. Not me. Hats off to ya.


I don't hate you. I can't live that way. I don't like being hated by you either.

I'm merely defending A.A., but in the meantime, I'm doing steps and separating the MOTR or what Danny Boy calls Pop-A.A. from the actual program.

Is that so wrong? A.A. does work for some of us. Why do we get called trolls and spammers when we're merely supporting A.A.?


Do you really want a blog full of antiA.A.ers? What would you all b!tch about then? The weather? The economy? Your green world?

A.A. is not going away ever. It's here to stay. Really.

antiAA819:

"Dog - antiaa819 - Dec 1st 2009
McGowdog points us in the direction of his blog. I encourage everyone to visit it as he is the poster child for what you want to avoid in aa. I met many aaers such as mcgowdog during my time in aa and I await a time when people like him are exposed for the charlatans that they really are."

Oh, and I didn't direct any of you to my blog anyhow. Y'all did that all on your own. Thanks for stopping by. If it weren't for a pesky poster, you might have comment privileges too. You can thank antiAA819 for that.



So, here's an example of what antiAA819 is saying about me;


""The Dog Blog - - Dec 2nd 2009

"McGowdog points us in the direction of his blog. I encourage everyone to visit it as he is the poster child for what you want to avoid in aa. I met many aaers such as mcgowdog during my time in aa and I await a time when people like him are exposed for the charlatans that they really are.

More like he is the poster child for what you want to avoid in life altogether. Nasty, ignorant, judgmental, small minded, arrogant, sick, tiny, shallow, fearful, deslusional - and all on behalf of God, as he claims? I think that since AA allows its followers to choose any random higher power, McGowdog chose himself as the God of His understanding. He doesnt seem to understand much beyond the confines of his own mind.""



So... how is that juvenile assessment of me smart, educated, mature? How is your bitching, pissing and moaning making you any better than me?

You folks are a bunch of whiny bitchy moany punks and skanks. Why don't you go do something useful? Get a job. Work with lepers. Go help the Salvation Army. Go down to the bus depot and get your self esteem back. How does wasting away on cyber-world helping your cause? Really?

****************************************

How about Moderation Management? What about Audrey Kishline and the 38 year old Richard Davis and his 12 year-old daughter that she killed when, while following her own little anti-AA MM program that promotes "moderation"... to the tune of .26 bac...? How is that program less dangerous than A.A.? If you're an alcoholic and you give a fuck about society, you would be going to a God damned A.A. meeting and drinking coffee instead of booze, you stupid fucktards! Fuck all you fucking fucks. Why don't you just go for a swim... all of you.

Go listen to Stanton Peele dance sideways on the "movement" after the incident! Oh, guess abstinence isn't so bad afterall now! Go do what you losers do. Pimp your pharmaceutical drugs to your poor victims-er patients and collect your lucrative paychecks. But leave the drunks alone. You didn't give a shit about them prior to the formation of A.A. back in 1935 and you don't give a shit about them now.

A.A. Tradition 3: Common Problem... Common Solution... Truth

Tradition Three:

Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover from alcoholism. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

First, don't assume that anyone in an A.A. meeting is an alcoholic. Individuals are allowed to decide that for themselves, but good sponsorship, if you will, can straighten this out. It requires what's already laid out in that wonderful book. If someone is in the wrong place, we can direct them to someone who can better help them.

"Cooperation with other fellowships and the professional community."

Remember that one?

"It's not us against them!" This takes a lot of pressure off of me and you.

It is said that the 12 Steps will work for about any group, if there's the foundation of truth; common problem.

It is said that just about everything that we know about alcoholism came to us from non-alcoholics, like Dr. Silkworth and Dr. Harry Tiebout for example.

Just about everything about spiritual came from non-alcoholics, like Sam Shoemaker, Dr. Carl Jung, Fr. Ed Dowling, etc.

"We don't have the answer. We have an answer. The principles are universal. They have been freely given to us and we share them freely." This... also takes a lot of pressure off of me... and us.

It is said that some of our professional community and other friends of A.A. are leaving off the physical craving phenomena of alcoholism and it's the very thing that sets us apart from the non-alcoholics... and it's not their fault. It's ours. Should we not stick to the one thing we do well? A.A.?

The most anti-social, anti-God, anti-each other group of alcoholics can call themselves an A.A. group...which leads to Tradition 4.

A.A. Tradition 2: Trust, service, leadership, wisdom...

A.A. Tradition 2: Trust, service, leadership, wisdom...

------------------------------------------------------



Our A.A. experience has taught us that: (Long Form)

2.—For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.



...and now, the short form which is actually longer... than the long form...



2.—For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.




So... the short form makes mention of the "twisted serpents"... er-"trusted servants".



And so I found something about this tradition in that service manual;

"Hence the principle of amply delegated authority and responsibility to "trusted servants" must be implicit from the top to the bottom of our active structure of service.This is the clear implication of A.A.'s Tradition Two".



From the 12 and 12:

"Where does A.A. get its direction? Sole Authority in A.A. is a loving God as He may express Himself in the group conscience. Formation of a group. Growing pains. Rotating committees are servants of the group. Leaders do not govern, they serve. Does A.A. have a real leadership? "Elder statesmen" and "Bleeding Deacons". The group conscience speaks".



So who's the boss around here? Is it Bill? Bob? Well... no. They're dead, for one thing. But I'd bet some would like to pin leadership on them. But they can't. Are they like the teflon Dons'? There again; perhaps our detractors would like to think that. God. A loving God is the "Ultimate Authority". And why? Because... A.A. as it has spread across the land came about as necessity and you would literally have a founder trying to rule every town... when it is obviously best to use delegation and rotation for leadership and to keep the politics out of it... from what I can understand.

Any thoughts/comments on this? Is this not what Bill W. was getting at in the 12 & 12? "Servants, not Senators". I like that.


This whole thing was tested when Charlie Towns from Towns Hospital told Bill W. that he could use an office in his building to work as a therapist and earn some bucks because... it was common knowledge at the time, Bill and Lois were "hard up" for money. He brought the idea to the group and they told him... if they sell out to anything like that... they for one thing would be tied to a hospital... and although that may be good, it's not good enough. Another thing is that the group would be divided. The book quotes the line, "the good can be the enemy of the best". They said Bill could never become a professional.

So... the group conscience spoke. And Bill heard it... and followed it. Thank God.



In my home town, there's this cool annual event called Ocsoberfest. It takes place in the Convention Center in about the second week of Ocsober...er October and it's funny how it started. Some dude was the treasurer of the CSO and the seed money or whatever you call it got stolen by him. He disappeared from the scene or something. Somebody ponied up the difference or a collection was taken up for the difference. People weren't so upset by the guy doing that. They weren't happy about it, but they were worried about him and didn't want to see him go get drunk over the thing. He came back and had the money to return... for restitution. By then, it was water over the bridge. They didn't know what to do with the money. So thus the start of Ocsoberfest. It is now a yearly event. They don't run Ocsoberfest when the State Convention is in Pueblo.

Not necessarily a Tradition 2 example directly, but I'm sure they had many a call for Ultimate Authority in dealing with this situation.

Let's break down my experience on some Recovery Forums, shall we?

""hi therei read your post about your meeting ,, wow im intrigued im a *** and go through *** many times a year i wanted to direct you to a site ,, not sure you will like it though ,,, im not real popular there ,, they tend to go with the traditional slogans , happy happy etc
anyway the site is [url]www.*******.com[/url]
i feel they could use your honest recovery ,,,""

***********

""Can I ask you a simple question?Why do you want to delete all your posts?
You don't have to answer, of course; just curious.""

*******************

""For what it's worth, I don't think you were treated fairly.
I might not have responded with "bite me", but then again, I might've. You might notice that I didn't fault you on it.
What's amusing is that there's no need to sign the rep comment. I signed mine as a sign of support, because I knew you would read it. My guess is that J* signed his, thinking that someone else would read it, not you. You might take that into consideration, if it's any help at all: he didn't mean for you to read that. Just depends whether you care more what's said to your face than behind your back, I guess. It wasn't a nice thing for him to say, either way.
I am curious, though; you mentioned that you have enemies (your word) in other places. How do you handle it differently, there, or how do they? My interest is in making this the best possible place, and it's not there yet.
Here's your shot (and I have to leave, so I might have to read it tomorrow): what would you do differently, if you had moderator powers here?""

************

McGowdog:

Well thanks ****.

I would like to suggest something about this particular forum if I could; I would like to see a specific place where those that use A.A. could go to post topics that might be appealing to some.
It would be nice if you could have a 12 step section and maybe a general alcoholism section, a drug addiction section, a secular recovery section, etc.

I would suggest this not to segregate the various posters, but to at least give one a place to go as a starting point.

But as one who needs a really focused recovery, I don't know where to post in here without feeling like an alien on another planet. That I way, I can choose to engage or not those that do other things and they can choose to engage or not what I do in my side of the universe.

Does this make any sense?

************************

Some of the nicer comments I got from "over there"...

I read your post very interesting and it sounds like you've been in recovery for a very long time. I was a regular on these boards but recently walked away from all the BS and the fine strokes everyone gives one another. When I got sober in 1989 there was no strokes, you sat down, you shut up and you learned to listen.
It was interesting that you picked that chapter to the wives out of edition 1... I have that one but its in wrap and untouched... I got sober with edition 3.... and I agree AA works....
nice to see an old AA person posting on these boards...

***************

""Good Morning YOu can see the great replies your getting to all that work you put out there in the forums to share...

ha.... don't waste your time, half of the community don't do AA, they don't do anything, I use to share my own ESH with them some years ago, but soon stopped, I don't even reply to any posts there any all anymore..

Hang around, read all there stroking bull ****t and watch them fall like dead birds.

The 'in' crowd call themselves the 'possee' and the big leader is ***, shes sober a long time, but should practice what she preaches..

I met her in person 4 yrs ago on a *** weekend in ***.... all hot air....

anyway, I read what you wrote, and appreciate it...

Enjoy this day...""

****************

"Thank you for your threads and for staying up into the "wee hours" to complete them. I appreciate anyone who is willing to share their EXPERIENCE, strength and hope with us.
Welcome to ***"

******************

quote by McGowdog:
PS: I was on another forum elsewhere and a person from there told me about this site. That's how I came to be here.

But over there... you have to "earn" your right to post via reps


""yeah ,,, i noticed the same thing ,,, very much anti -AA ,,, thats what i invited you here ,,, this is a general recovery site

i didnt however want to announce on the main boards i was the one who invited you here people dont like me much ,, apparently i stomp around and trample feelings ,,, maybe i do ,, maybe thats why not many like me ,,, and yeah it hurts ,, oh well i keep coming back LOL

anyway heres my email ,, you wont be able to respond to me via PM , simply because i had to lock my PM box to stop the vile i was getting from some longterm members here who are still drinking yet pretending they are sober

hmmmm yeah so heres my email ***

take care ,, stay strong ,, and dont let these bastards get you down""

***************

Need I go on?

*************

Uh oh... busted!

""Hi and welcome to ****. I've deleted a few more of your posts as violations of our Community Standards Agreement about insulting other members. We take that one seriously, and we will enforce it in both directions. You are welcome to disagree strongly with other members, but not to put them down personally or tell them what they're allowed to do -- or not -- in the forum.
If more deletions are required, our next step will be to require moderation of your posts or suspend the account.

Thanks for your time.""

*****************

Thanks for my time? R U Serious? Why are you thanking me for my time? You nearly kicked me off your island... exiled me... expelled me! Thanks for my time?

I don't understand that.

I'm confused.

It's like... well it's like... confusing, like a Tiger Woods Christmas Card;
























The sadness of it all...

**************

"" I dont post often but I read every day, and your step threads were absolutely the best. I am very disappointed that you deleted them........good good stuff in there. Please do not allow a few bad apples make you stop being you. ""

***************

""I wish you had not deleted your posts on the steps. I don't know why you did it, but it is done now. If this site is taking away your serenity, then please take care of yourself. ""

**************

""lemme guess? ok?
you've been sober about five years and now you're itchy. getting restless, irritable and discontent. but why? you're mr AA! you know the book frontwards and backwards and you could win any contest naming the aphorisms that clutter the walls of any AA meeting room. You go to so many meetings that you don't really have a life or a personality outside of AA. And that m'friend may be your problem. Sober is a beginning, just a tiny bginning. AA ain't supposed to be a lifestyle, just an adjunct.
peace ula*** (former sufferer of Mr AA syndrome)""

*****************

"" Hi McGowdog,

You were like a shooting star.

I have discovered that *** has some crotchety personalities. *** can be a difficult place for newcomers. I am sorry that they got to you.

I hope you decide to stay but, if you don't, the best way to leave us would be with the legacy of your step posts. Please repost them so I can read them at my leisure and refer people to them in the future.

Best regards, ""

*******************

RE: Please bring back your posts ""I will check out *** I too am looking for meaty and thought provoking conversations.

I agree with you that *** must reflect the forums as the 'old-timers' here want it to be - else, they would have altered the tenor of this place. There are so many unhappy people here, it is sad.

There is a noticeable anti-AA bias which conflicts with ***'s mission statement. It surprised me at first. I guess I have gotten used to it but I doubt that I will ever become a regular poster here.

Take care, ""

***************

""I am just coming back here after along time away, due to wellllll lets just say, things I have absolutely no control over!! lol

Now, why did you delete all your posts. The ones that quoted in other people's posts, are just wonderful and full of Recovery.

Where have you been and will you be posting again?
Hope to see you

Yours in Fellowship ""
***

*************

""Well McGowdog, I wish you the best in your journey, and it truely is the *** community who lost big time...when you left :(

You have a great day, and keep passing on the message of HOPE :)

In Fellowship,
***""

*************

Nice to hear from the silent minority once in a while too.

If you're new to recovery or still drunk and trying to figure it all out... I hope you use your own mind and decide for yourself if A.A. is for you or not.

I have no reason to promote A.A. That's against our traditions anyway. I'd like to get to a place where my actions could "attract" A.A. to those who need it.

Attraction! Yeah, that's the ticket.










































How could a bunch of ex-drunks steer you wrong? These antiAA folks cannot hurt A.A. What they can do is distract some real alcoholics from giving A.A. a shot.

There was a fellowship prior to A.A. that was 18 times the size of A.A. It was called the Washingtonians. They fell apart rapidly because they lacked two things that A.A. had going for it, a program via the 12 steps and a cohesive unity via the 12 traditions. A.A. is still here and going strong. That's the truth.

These antiA.A.ers are losers who have no power in the face to face (f2f) world so they hide behind their keyboards and like to get a reaction out of us. But us A.A. folks are real folks and we have computers too.

So bring it on, punks.

A.A. Tradition 1: Unity... Our experience has taught us that...

A.A. Tradition 1: Unity...Our experience has taught us that...

I've been wanting to start a list of threads that cover the traditions, not so much to state my experience in them, but rather to just put them out there and get feedback about them so as to learn your experiences in them.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that: (Long Form)One-Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.

From the 12 and 12;

"Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unit."

Without unity, A.A. dies. Individual liberty, yet great unity. Key to paradox: each A.A.'s life depends on obedience to spiritual principles. The group must survive or the individual will not. Common welfare comes first. How best to live and work together as groups.

Within that 12 & 12, it goes on to say, "No A.A. can compel another to do anything; nobody can be punished or expelled. Our Twelve Steps to recovery are suggestions; the Twelve Traditions which guarantee A.A.'s unity contain not a single 'Don't'."

Why is A.A. NOT anarchy? Because of Tradition 2, more on that later, but also because... "If he deviates too far, the penalty is sure and swift; he sickens and dies."

So although we're not forced to follow these principles, we really need this way of life in order to stay sober and have a chance at life. Or as Paul Martin said, "Once I get what I need, I find that it's what I wanted all along".

It goes on to say that some individuals cannot recover unless there is a group. Tradition 3 defines the A.A. group as "two or more...", so... "By faith and by works we have been able to build upon the lessons of an incredible experience."

I'm seeing how this tradition and all the other 11 work in harmony to give the individuals a place to meet, as a group, and do this program and offer service to those who are yet to come.

In Paul Martin's lead, I heard him speak of an experience while listening to Bill W. give a pitch himself; Bill said, "Imagine if all of you here didn't come to A.A. for another 10 years from when you did..." Then there was silence for a while ... as people in that room contemplated the hell their lives would be if they were to drink for another 10 years. Well... that's the reality for those who have not found A.A. as of yet and we may be the ones who have that opportunity to bring some of them in.

I think that's sort of what unity is about.

...


Some more info on Tradtion 1 to follow:

FIRST TRADITION

“Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.”

Some ideas about the Traditions based on observation and experience:

I can tell you all I know about them in about two minutes.
-They are ideals for a society in which love is the only law. Great suffering and great love binds us together.
-They are living principles. I experienced them before I knew about them. I was welcomed and accepted as I was where I was.

Some myths and misconceptions about the Traditions:

-Most often, our experience with both Steps and Traditions are based on the short forms that we read before our meetings and put on the walls of our meeting rooms. This has lead to widespread misconception and fallacies in today’s A.A. There is much more to the Traditions than what we find in the short form. The short form of both the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions will be found in our book. The long form of both the Twelve Steps and the Twelve Traditions will be found in our book.

-It is helpful to know the history of Alcoholics Anonymous when looking at the Traditions. Most were arrived at after trial and error, by making mistakes. Some were born out of fear in our early fellowship. All were born of the necessity to preserve our society for future generations and to protect it from forces, both within and without which could destroy it.

-The Traditions are not rules, but living principles that I live by in a society in which there are no rules.

-Another myth: that the Traditions are only for people who are in service or who are sober a long time. The statement “The Traditions are to the group as the Steps are to the individual”, is not true. This leaves a whole set of principles that can be practiced in the home, business, society, etc. They are merely extensions of what is found in the Steps.

The Traditions are about unity and preserving our fellowship for future generations. Without unity, we can’t survive as a fellowship. The Twelve Steps are a unifying experience. My recovery depends upon my unity with you and your unity with me. The Steps get rid of what’s in the way of me being in unity with you. The Traditions help keep that experience alive. A true fellowship is a gathering of like- minded people. If there is sponsorship and recovery going on within a group, there will be unity, and there will be service. Unity means a lot more than being in a room full of people with the same problem.

-one principle not spoken of often in A.A. is stewardship. It means to take care of what we’ve been given. The fellowship is about having a place where recovered alcoholics can carry a message to sick alcoholics. If the old-timers have no place to carry their message, they wither and die. If the sick alcoholic has no place to come to see and hear a message, he will wither and die.

The First Tradition, wherein each of us is but a small part of a great whole, is the foundation upon which all else rests. We must hang together or die alone. Like the First Step, it addresses the problem. Like the First Step, all else comes back to it.

The First Tradition addresses the problem-comply or die. Comply not to human rules, but with spiritual principles. Compliance means conditions-the condition is life or death, change or die.

Most alcoholics feel as if they are separate and alone when they get to us. Stay separate, stay alone, die alone. Or recover together. Unity means being a part of the whole, rather than apart from. A spiritual experience is a unifying experience that joins me to myself, to other people, and to God. A process of becoming whole and complete.

-the First Tradition can work backwards: If my personal recovery depends upon the unity in the group, is it possible that unity in the group can hinge on the recovery of the individual within the group? If the group members are practicing these principals, there will be recovery, and hence there will be unity.

-does my recovery bring about unity around me? Or am I a producer of confusion rather than harmony?

-although my recovery depends not so much on your unity with as on my
unity with you, it does depend on unity within the group….

-watch the company you keep. You can stay sick in A.A. and have plenty of company. Or you can get well in A.A. and have plenty of company. You just have to pick the company you want to hang with.

-it takes all of us to make up the body of the Christ. If one of us is missing, we are not whole.
-the best way to belong to a group is to participate in what that group does.
-a true group is a gathering of like-minded people.
-the whole group participates. If there is not an informed group conscience, the group will die or become something that is not A.A.
-the principle of anonymity applies. I am one of many, a member of A.A.
-a guiding principle for the individual in a group: is it selfish or not?
-a principle common to all truly spiritual communities is that the group comes first. I set aside my need for recognition, prestige, and power and put the needs of the group first. My needs are automatically met if I help to see that needs of the whole are met.
-a principle of good living is sacrifice, the giving of my very best to God and to the group. The word sacrifice comes from sacred-that which is holy, the very best. If it’s not worth giving up, it’s not a sacrifice.
-Trust as a principle: can I trust my group? Can I trust myself to behave as amember of the group?
-our message should be one of continuity, of common experience, of profound change (BB, p. 17). Brotherly and harmonious action. I set aside my opinions and differences to join in a common effort.
-principle of unity before personalities. One myth-that the “newcomer is the most important person in the room”, isn’t true. Nobody is more importantthan anyone else.

Just left a recovery forum and was asked why

Some on that site pounced on me from the start, sighting spam and flame posting and that I was trying to write my own version of the A.A. program.

So I pulled out. Then people came out of the woodworks to ask me to stay. Oh, they didn't defend me out in the posts... except for the very brave like TJ... maybe a couple of others. But for the most part, these poor posters don't even post anymore themselves. They appreciated my trip up the steps and wanted me to bring them back.

So, I stepped back and just said... "WHAT???? Are you serious?" The powers that be didn't want any part of me over there. You want to see what I'm talking about? Well... I'll show you. This is the kind of A.A. bashing that goes on over there unabated;



"Protecting a person before they get harmed in recovery world is exactly what I'm trying to do. When 95% of people drop out of AA in their first year (AA's numbers), that shows that something is wrong.




















































I was a volunteer peer advocate with a program whose clientele were all dually diagnosed. They had all been through 12step treatment and AA/NA, most several times, all unsuccessfully. I now work in mental health primarily with those who have coexisting substance abuse issues. Together, over five years in the field.







I've run DRA, SOS, and harm reduction groups, each has had their success stories and their failures. All of them have had people who feel they had been harmed by AA/NA.





Besides the anti-medication factor and the 13th steppers which are obvious (and tolerated in the rooms), the philosophy of AA is damaging for many. The idea that addiction isn't the people's fault, that is a disease that they powerless over is seductive. People don't want to admit that their actions led to their addictions, that's the pull of 12step groups. Belief that they are powerless gives them an excuse for relapses.

When people in AA relapse, it is practically scripted that they go out on a full class binge. The Brandsma study showed that binging occurred five times as much with people in 12step treatment as those who received no treatment and nines times more that those who had received rational behavioral therapy.





AA is fear-based program, all the talk of "jails, institutions, and death" and the horror stories of how people who leave die are scare tactics not health coping skills. People, especially those with coexisting disorders, respond better to Motivational Interviewing/Motivational Enhancement than fear.





And some, like myself, could not accept the religious nature of the program. I have had several clients with religious delusions that were all too eager to accept AA religiosity and incorporate it with their own that ended up badly.






It's for these reasons I cannot, in good conscience, suggest AA as a treatment method.















Let's break down a list of claims from above;

• A.A. has a 5% recovery rate based on newcomer dropout after the first year.
• People with dual-diagnosis who claim they've been harmed in A.A./N.A.
• The support for and/or tolerance of denying the AAer from the use of medications
• The support for and/or tolerance of 13 stepping
• The idea that A.A. supports the "addiction" model and that A.A. falsely believes that some people called alcoholics were doomed to become alcoholics despite their actions, thus "powerless" over booze from the start AND that this results in the excuse that they are also "powerless" over any subsequent relapse. When people in A.A. go out in relapse, they purposely go on a tear and follow some premeditated script due to their "brainwashing" from A.A. indoctrination.
• A.A. is fear-based and those in the fellowship are threatened to stay or they will face "jails, institutions, or death."
• A.A. is a religious program and does not mix with the prospect's own prior convictions.
• A.A. cannot be, in good conscience, be recommended as a method of treatment.

That 5% recovery rate is an example of the bashing from those in the antiAA industry...aka those earning a buck on your plight that are "vehemently antiA.A. as opposed to those who were fundamental program followers and found it to be a 75% recovery rate. They claim the numbers come from within A.A. archives... as if A.A. would be able to measure such a stat.

"Of course, this doesn’t really tell the whole story, as many people will leave AA after being first introduced to it, and then later return once they have truly been beaten by their alcoholism. Most people who are a success story in AA tell of how they struggled–sometimes for years–going in and out of AA before they finally “got it.”"

My personal experience with the thing is this; I have always made it more than a year when I came into A.A. and did the A.A. program via the 12 Steps. So for me, the Program has a 300% success rate. You stupid antiA.A. fools. Get a new statistician and stop watching Penn & Teller Bullshit and passing it off as education.

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Dual diagnosis; Don't know what to tell ya. Maybe you're right. In my A.A. group, we don't fool with dual-diagnosis. We send them elsewhere. People with dual-diagnosis tend to fall back on the other problem when the heat gets too great on the one. Either you're alcoholic or you're not. A.A. is for alcoholics. Period! No one else. Just alkies. I would question the "Professional" that made the dual-diagnosis in the first place and I would question the treatment center that tagged the client as an alcoholic/drug addict/ a drug is a drug is a drug bullshit. Either you're an alcoholic or you're not and it's up to you to diagnose yourself... according to A.A. A.A. gives the potential client the dignity to find that out for themselves.

My experience based on what I've seen; my oldest brother is a paranoid schizophrenic. He is not a drug addict and he is not an alcoholic. He does like to get high once in a while though. He does not go to A.A. nor does he go to N.A. Why? Because, for one thing, he is given the dignity to decide that for himself. Nobody forces him to go into A.A. or N.A. Oh, and he doesn't break the law too often. You break the law, and the state, county, or feds will decide you are not allowed to drink booze or do mind altering drugs anymore. Then of those, some are given the "opportunity" to try 12 Step to help with their subsequent abstinence. They are not "forced into A.A." They are merely given the choice; A.A. or Bubba. Would you like to see SMART, RR, LR, SOS, etc. get a crack at these fine folks? Yes? Well so would I. I'll get to work on that.

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13 Stepping; Note to newcomers in A.A. ... keep your legs crossed. You have the right to not spread your legs. The steps stop after 12. We've tried to tell you to not date within the first year, to have women work only with women, to not shout, to not pout, to be a good boy. We have not yet been able to control the wrong-doings of others... and sometimes ourselves. But to say that 13 Stepping is tolerated or encouraged... that's just a flat out lie.

My experience, my group doesn't even currently have any women in it now. They come to our meeting from time to time and ask if it's a stag meeting. We say "No. You are welcome... so long as you are an alcoholic and want to do something about it." There's another meeting I go to where they have a lot of women, a lot of people who date within their own gender, etc. Why that is, IDK. I guess they feel safe there, but it's a good meeting that is focussed on the A.A. program via the 12 Steps. If I saw someone in the A.A. program going after someone who was new, female, vulnerable, etc., I'd get in their face about it and warn the other party about it as best I could. I've not seen this in a long time.

To say that A.A. corners the market in predatory behavior is a flat out lie and would like to see how the "Professional Community" fares on such matters. Naw, not really. I got better shit to do. Like being a husband to my wife and cleaning my own side of the street.

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We in A.A. do believe we are powerless over alcohol physically and mentally... once we put it into our body we react physically different than the norm and once separated from booze, we react differently to the 1st drink than others. That's A.A.'s stance. A.A. did not come about as yet one of many successful solutions for the alcoholic. It came about as the only thing that would work. And A.A. is still here today because it's the only thing that works for real alcoholics. Alcoholism is not an addiction. The word "addiction" being linked to alcoholism came about in about 1991 when insurance co-pay got into the game. Alcoholics are not addicts, alcoholism is not a disease, and alcohol is not a drug; it is food. Let's get on the same page and talk the same language. Then maybe the success rates for alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. will increase.

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Relapse is not part of the A.A. Program and it never was. That's treatment center bullshit and is also perpetuated by the thought that once you forget the pain, relapse begins. It's bullshit and it came from you doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, therapists, etc. Own up to it and shut your holes about it.

The truth in the matter is that some alcoholics come to A.A. and are never shown the Program... aka the doing of the steps... and they go back out and drink again and what happens is usually sad. How dare you make fun of this tragic event and use it to bash A.A. you stupid punk. I'm a real fucking alcoholic and I've gone back out and drank again and it always gets worse. What's your experience with drinking booze?

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A.A. is fear-based and the threat of going back out will result in "jails, institutions, and death?" That's complete bullshit too. At least it is in my Step-working group. If you want to go back out or leave A.A., you're welcome to it. But for some of those real alcoholics that did, the results is sometimes "jails, institutions, and death". Now that's the truth. And that may bother some of you. Some non alcoholics that got hustled into A.A. from treatment centers left A.A. and did fine.

A good A.A. group will help a potential client find out if they are alcoholic or not, and be invited to leave if they're not. Why? Because A.A. is a spiritual based program founded on the Truth and you cannot build a spiritual life based on a fundamental lie. If you're not an alcoholic and try to pass yourself off as one, you will get sick, not better. THAT'S WHY WE DON'T HUSTLE NON-ALCOHOLICS INTO A.A. FROM THE GET-GO. A.A. IS FOR JUST ALKIES.

As alcoholics get older, their livers, pancreas', and kidneys get older, not newer. So for that reason, if they go back out and drink again, it always gets worse, never better. Does this not make any sense to you in the medical field? It should. I know it for a fact because I've experienced it in my own life. Oh, but let's not dare call it a disease! That would offend those folks with real diseases!

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A.A. is a religious program that does not mix with a prospect's existing convictions? Not my experience at all. In fact, let's talk about a prospects existing convictions? How well did God separate the prospect from booze prior to A.A.?

Not so good, huh? You want to know why? Two simple words... get ready for a theology lesson you dorks... Free Will!

This is why priests, rabbi's, ministers, other clergy come to A.A. to find that contact with their God so they can follow a "few simple rules" which will enable that God to remove the obsession to drink from them and enable them to find a life which is once again useful and whole. Oh, and it's where the doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist, counselor, etc. will go to dispell the myths of recovery and enable the real alcoholic that needs it to seek help.

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Frankly, A.A. was given a lot of support from clergy and medical professionals and we started off as "friends". Then these "friends" got greedy and A.A. stayed consistent and the alcoholic hasn't changed a lick, nor has booze, nor has human nature... so if anything has skewed the recovery stats for A.A., I'd say it's been the greed of the Alcoholism Industry.