Friday, July 23, 2010

The pot calling the kettle black

Dog will hunt.

Donald T. Quinn says

"Let’s go over there and kick Mcblowdogs ass!

Donald T. Quinn says "Sarah, I really appreciated your kind words. You made my day. Don’t let the buggers get you down. We’re with you all the way.

Mona Lisa says "You know, the majority of people I knew in my AA days were decent people. Misguided, full of fear, scared of thinking outside their little world, and fighting their nagging sense of cognitive dissonance…but for the most part well-meaning. The horrific, vile, profane, antagonistic, arrogant, bizarre invective issued by McG and his ilk is over the top, even for AA."

SoberPJ says "I was going to post over at McDog and then I read the AA supporters comments and realized ST is in a different league. And, IMHO, it should stay that way. My take is to ignore them and let them spew angry and profane rhetoric while they try to defend the indefensible. Over time, AA will wither but never die – it seems to be in the withering process right now. There will always be defenders of the faith, but it cannot withstand a constant barrage of solid questioning and astute observation. There is simply too much deceit and lack of evidence of efficacy for it to continue to thrive over the long term. Plus, it mimics a religion and this is an interesting video on how the Internet is a place for religons to come to die – some stupid youtube vid .The internet will cause the withering of AA too.

Primrose says Agree with Spj

Someone like anonymous of course is a better representative of aa. There is no point talking to someone who makes so little sense. It is a pity that mgd does not have a wider audience because he is proof to me of an extreme aa type, whose allegiance to the cult overtakes logic. I think that people from this site may be the bulk of his audience.

friendthegirl says Sarah, you have email… I’m going to reiterate a few things here that I emailed to you, just to put everyone in the loop.

First of all, like Donald sez, we all have your back. I’m not afraid to speak for everyone here when I say that. We have your back, and I have your back.

Second, I can’t stop anyone from pulling quotes from this blog. And if I had the ability to do so, I wouldn’t, because we routinely pull quotes from other forums in order to expose how AA members treat each other. I can ban someone from commenting, but I can’t ban anyone from reading or pulling text from the blog, and making an enormous asshole out of himself, and proving our point for us, for the whole world to see. (I can, however, ban someone because I feel like it, and I have no qualms about that.)

Third, if, upon reflection, anyone feels too exposed by anything they have posted here, I will delete your comment for you. Just let me know. You own your words, and I will honor your request.

Fourth, the message board seems to still be a little off the beaten path, but if people here would like a “members only” forum, which requires valid email address registration and membership approval, I will set that up. This will prevent anyone who is not registered (“guests”) from viewing your posts. It won’t prevent all abuse, if the message board grows beyond my capacity to recognize who’s who (which I don’t see happening anytime soon), but it will require a certain accountability, which a troll might be unwilling to accept.

Fifth, I haven’t read McGow’s whole post, yet. The man should put a seizure trigger alert on his masthead. I mean, it’s just an unreadable mess of neon text on a black background, completely unformatted and lacking any logical cohesion or flow (definitely a candidate for websitesthatsuck.com). But I will read it. And one thing I will tell you is that if Mcgowdog thought he could hold his own, or felt that he had a righteous position, he would have done so here. He responds here often enough. He knows he wouldn’t have been censored — he never has been, and has no reason to think he would — but he does know that he would have had his ass gift wrapped, with a nice big bow, and handed back to him, and he doesn’t have the cojones.

Sixth, At Stinkin’ Thinkin’, we front-page-post comments from AA members that we cull from their forums, in order to expose abuse. We don’t post comments from AA members who are in pain or who are vulnerable and then ridicule them. We cull for abuse, not for weakness. And McGowdog’s pulling quotes from someone who is expressing vulnerability and distress, in order to demean her from an AA position, is repugnant. And it reinforces the necessity of this blog and others like it: Expose AA ; Orange ; Blame .

violet says "talking about your cord made me wonder if you had a mac. i feel like all of us smaht anti aas have macs." Leave it to Violet to be off the wall spontaneous and free. Love this out of the blue comment.

violet says dear mcf-ckloser, you are just um, so far over my f-cking head, over all of our’s? what the? perhaps i did not read you correctly, um your black teenager-esque backdrop with purple font distracts me so, so very much. and well, what a creepy funeral for you. if only your uncle had gone to a meeting with you, he could have added some innocent aa chicks to his molestation list. gosh, i wish he woulda made it there, i am sure it REALLY would helped him. all i can say is, thank god i did not have to sit next to him or you, like eVAH."

That's ok. My cat still loves me;

My uncle was the one who had killed somebody in a drunk driving incident. Don't pin molestation on him too. Things are bad enough for him. But you sure do know how to take things out of context.

ok, i cannot take thedoghouse seriously. the blog is such a joke. i feel mean. it is like making fun of a really, really socially awkward person who unfortunately has a mean streak. these people are best smiled at and ignored.

Yeah, like you ignored us over at Sober Recovery about 15 months ago.

violet says "I guess if I were to take that blog seriously, which I just can’t, I would say that this guy is really just off the mark and misguided. And actually this is a huge drag because people who prolly need the most support (in truth, that funeral he describes is pretty rotten, right?), are going to f-ing end up listening to doghouse in an AA meeting. the uncle, cannot you see him in AA. GROSS. i do not want to sit next to people ike that. I do not want them in my home, around my family, nada. ut education and compassion are really the only thing that could prolly transcend this framework. i do not have the compassion. just do not.

If you want to make comments about my dead uncle or dead acquaintences, fire away. The three examples I gave were all examples of guys I knew that committed suicide and I gave some insight as to why they might have ended their life that way; a drunk, a manic-depressive, and a meth head. Fuck off, Violet. I'll not darken your door anytime ever, so don't worry about that.


So, going back to about April and even March of 2009... you guys started this Cut and Paste from the Sober Recovery forum and used our posts as your fodder... for your anti/XA cult blog. Yet, someone takes your posts and sheds a little bit of light on it and you're offended.

You want to come over here and kick McGowdog's ass, huh? You better eat a few more sides of beef. You'd also better start flailing about the ground because in the dirt is where you're gonna go.

You don't like my blog format? You don't like the Purple on the Black background? I don't care. It's my style, my way of separating my thoughts from y'alls.

Like I said on the last post, there are about 38 of you and one of me. You done ran off Jim and Rob and you banned Karl and Tony J. And you have the gall to call my/our morality and ethics into question?

You love to say, "Let them speak. They are our biggest advocates against A.A. that there is." Bullshit. When you speak of A.A. you pull of the slogan of the week and use that to judge why A.A. didn't conform to your secular/atheistic world view. Some of us are into the teachings and experiences in that book and it works for us. Your Agent Orange induced rhetoric is old and tired now.

You need us. You need the constant friction and attention for your existence as you are but parasites feeding off of the crumbs of others. You look with vociferous attention to any story that you can spin to put A.A. in a bad light. For us, it's entertaining at best. But if you ever came close to hitting home, we would step back, agree with you that A.A. has some problems and we would set out to fix things or at least find the truth in our own exerience in the thing.

With our hardcore/hardlined approach to the A.A. program, not much of what you speak of is our reality.

Of all of you that commented on the "Suicide" post, hardly anyone came in with a disagreement to your ramblings and A.A.s supposed link to suicide. I saw that Ray corrected ftg on a word and she changed it to say "Mortality" rather than "Suicide". But nonetheless, look at your antiAA comments. You guys are the ones that are wacko.

You are resentful at A.A. and you would benefit to get over it. According to some of you, you had a hard enough time with sobriety that you got thrown into A.A., found out how bad it sucked... and 19 years later left A.A. and found that you could just stay sober on your own choice. So how is that not choosing to go to A.A. in the first place?

Why don't you go a step further and choose to drink normal? Wouldn't a Beck's Light go pretty good this weekend? Come on. Have a drink on me. Choose to be a successful drinker. If you can stay away from the first one without God, then surely you can stay away from the 5th one... or the 4th one... or the 3rd one. Drink two and stop. Then come back to A.A. and tell us about it so we can "tip our hats" to you.


So what started all of this?

The offended poster at ST says,

FTG: I would like you to know that McGodCow has copied and pasted my earlier statement all over the web and ripped me to shreds for it. You say you want me to share here, and this is what happens. As for the board, I have posted there, and most do not bother to read nor respond. So, goodbye for a while as this is obviously not a safe place.July 23, 2010, 11:18 am

Holy crap! I didn't mean to single you out and the only name I took liberty to use was K. Unless by accident, that wasn't the point of my blog or any other comments from specific posters.

I just used the subject of "Is A.A. causing suicide" as something to counterpoint. That's all.

If you were offended by my immediate and spontaneous comments to your posts, I'm sorry. I don't know you well enough to make any educated statements. But you are posting in a nasty blog that has done some nasty and abusive things to my friends. Look back at my earliest blog entries.

It's the main reason I started this blog! I have a right to speak my mind, as y'all do. I may be banned from forums and put into the "Dunce" room, etc. But I will speak my mind and my experience.

And by the way, I'm not threatened by you atheists in the least. I've got some secular and atheist friends in A.A. and they get along fine. But they aren't your Starbucks-quality atheist like most of you folks are. They are the real deal. They don't believe in an Intelligent Guidance in the Universe or at least, don't think a Supreme Being is in charge. But they make A.A. work nonetheless. Either way, they are forced to choose.

Upon what we choose is what separates us.

I'm not really in agreement of your assessment of me over there. If you think I'm too vulgar, fine. I'll stay away. For you to discount me as some A.A. nutjob or wacko that's not even of use in A.A. interests me not. I'm doing well in my recovery. Believe it or not.

But make no mistake about this; I owe the existence of this blog and its style to you fine folks over at Stinkin' Thinkin'. You created me. You should take a bow. With all of the "Quotes of the Week" , "The Crazies over at Sober Recovery", and the labels to selective posts, you got my attention.

If you want to know the truth, I'd rather get away from this back and forth banter, but my pro-AAs have gone into the basement as of late. Things are quiet. Most folks are out enjoying their summer. We'll see things pick back up over the next few months. Someone made the suggestion that I take on other usernames? Violet? The only other name I use is SirMcGowington. Karl is Cuda is Leadfoot. Tony J is Tony J. The others don't post here much. It's not their style.


Sarah, who also likes to bash the A.A. book and program on Amazon says, "I was not an unwilling member and I worked the steps OUT OF THE BOOK for over a decade! McGowdog, I hope you rot. Why does no one on this site care what he does to people who are already hurting?

I know about him and his friends. My point is: Why is he allowed on here again when the only reason he's here is to copy, paste, and slander?

Well I don't think it's very nice that you want me to rot. See, you've gone from suicidal to homicidal. I guess that's sort of improvement. you've gone from shame and apathy to resentment.

I don't care if you get me banned. I've been banned before. It's a small world. We'll meet up somewhere. You'll be bashing A.A. and I'll be praising it. Why? Because that's been my experience in A.A.

When you bash A.A. and claim that it's a dangerous cult that leads to suicide, I take note. I consider it for a second. I really do. But I see that what you say is bullshit. If you thought A.A. was wrong for you or you got no results after a set of steps, much less 12, why didn't you leave way back then?

What about the people for whom A.A. is successful? You say "good for you if A.A. worked for you" on one side of your mouth and you say, "A.A. is a dangerous cult" on the other. I don't buy it. You bought the victim card long ago and A.A. offered you freedom. Too bad it didn't work for you. I shouldn't even be defending A.A. here. It needs no defense from you or your "ilk". I saw plenty of people on your Amazon comments that dispelled you as a whack-job.

See? Insults and judgement work both ways. You ought to get a life. Have fun over at Stinkin' Thinkin. It fits you.


  1. "ok, i cannot take thedoghouse seriously. the blog is such a joke. i feel mean".

    I had to single this one out. Why is my question.
    You can sit over at ST and take misquotes, deception, half truths, exaggerations, fabricated statistics, slander/libel, and deliberate lies and respect what you hear over there. Yet one web site dedicated towards acting as a bullshit sifter you can't seem to take serious.
    You're in good company over there!

  2. More mindless spew from the crew of ST.
    I got this at Donald's Place.

    "Steptards blame everything on denial. A concept I disagree with due to the fact that actual Fruedian denial is an unconcious act".

    I have a hard time believing you'll find the word "Denial" in the book as it refers to alcoholism.
    "Denial" is used when it comes to accepting God. Never is it used in whether we consider alcohol a problem.

    We call your bullshit and stuff your bullshit right back down your throat every time.
    This is why nobody wants to come to the doghouse to play.
    Probably why FTG won't let me come over there either.
    I'm still waiting for MAs answer to his blatant disregard for the criminals rights when it comes to amendment 2, 4 and the rest of amendment one, but he doesn't give a shit about those.
    Maybe the whole thing is deemed to be bunk because the witnesses placed their hand on a Bible when thy testified about the poor little mistreated perpetrator.

  3. Yeah, the poor mistreated perpetrators. But our fellow anti/XAers are admitted hard/situational drinkers, not real alcoholics, and are only victims.

    They committed no crimes. They were all incested, 13th stepped, extorted, lied to, blackmailed, smoked on, offered coffee, etc., and then they got mandated to A.A. where it was more of the same for them. Oh, but some of them DID get D.U.I.s, some of them did get thrown in jail and get busted stealing vicodin from the nurses station, and some of them did get busted for animal hoarding. That's my vision of the typical anti/XAer... the fat stinky mamba with the 55 Yorkies in her trailer.

    So they get sent to A.A., get told to "Keep Coming Back", which they never heard before, and they get a phone list and start bugging strangers for the next 10 years, till finally, someone sits them down and asks them how they drank. They don't identify and storm out in a rage because they are crazier than when they started, yet they don't have the dignity to admit that they are not alcoholic and don't belong. So they attach themselves to the anti/XA cause.

    You talk about the 2nd and 4th amendments. How about the 3rd and parts of the 5th? What property seizure rights do you have when your ass is in the can? Raysny must have read the same Agent Orange Dictionary as M.A. on that rant.

    I love how Donald says I delete his insulting posts over here when he doesn't acknowledge the fact that two of my comrades got totally kicked out and two others got brutally attacked by the other minions there.

    There's no arguing or debating over there. It's just about stroking each others egos and playing Victim Card Bingo™.

  4. So I got a DUI and as part of my probation the PO gets to come check my piss whenever he wants.
    So much for my 4th and 5th amendment rights.
    But,,, And here it is!!!
    I agreed to it as part of my probation before I accepted the deal.
    Same with AA
    I bet you'll be hard pressed to find someone in America that was actually forced into going without it being part of the plea agreement.
    Don't say "Extortion" either.
    And mark my words. If you or your Attorney said no and offered an alternative to AA in the DAs chambers at the time of the agreement he would have accepted it.

    Forced into AA my dying ass.
    Most people are trying to find a convenient loophole to justify noncompliance. It's easier than sucking it up like a semi responsible member of society.

  5. I talked my way out of Level II education and therapy. Why? To save months of sitting amongst whiny bitches who neither want to quit drinking nor do they want to stop drinking and driving. Plus it costed $35.00 a pop.

    So my counselor asked, "What do you suggest?" I said, "One-on-ones. Me and you ... and I'll discuss how it's going with A.A., because I'm already in there, doing steps, and I honestly want to get and stay sober, unlike the whiny bitches in your Level II education and therapy group."

    She agreed to that and that's what I did. I was done with her in 5 sessions at 25 bucks a pop. I saved myself a bunch of money and stayed sober in A.A.

    Stupid antiAA/XAer fucktards. They are being lead by a bunch of folks who belong to the lucrative Alcoholism Industry. They are after your money in your pocket... and believe me, a buck or two in the basket ain't gonna cut it.

  6. I think I've figured it out! None of the ST crowd has really done anything but sit in meetings and take up space. All the while their number one concern was "What can AA do for me"
    That's not the way it works folks. It's "What can I offer a suffering alcoholic" instead of the "Me, Me, Me" demeanor you possess.
    I'll be willing to bet that not one of them helped another alcoholic that came to AA for help. "Me, Me, Me" was the battle cry.
    Here it is. Right there in the book they never read.

    Dr. W.W. Bauer, broadcasting under the auspices of The American Medical Association in 1949, over the NBC network, said, in part: "Alcoholics Anonymous are no crusaders; not a temperance society. They know that they must never drink. They help others with similar problems . . . In this atmosphere the alcoholic often overcomes his excessive concentration on himself..."

    I guess they never overcame the excessive concentration on themselves.
    Seems they didn't get the gist of AA at all, yet they know everything there is to know about it.

  7. They know a lot about the slogans, that's for sure.

    They saw some get it and it pissed them off.

    They fashion themselves as intellects. They stand by, waiting for Science to rocket them into for 4th dimension... waiting for doctors to find a pill to put the end to meetings forever... now that they've perfected simpler endeavors, such as... the common cold, the flu, diabetes, allergies, obesity, sleeping disorder, snoring, night farting, high blood pressure and heart disease, hang nail, wrinkles, baldness etc.

    They want to solve a mental and spiritual malady with a clinical solution.

    If an anti/XAer ever did anything kind for a real drunk, you'd have a banner and a blimp flying over their town by day and a skytracker spotlight by night. And then, as it would turn out... they will recall that they didn't actually follow through on doing something for the real alky... but they did consider it for a moment. Then they'd realize they met the poor alky in an A.A. meeting and hate them all over again... because, even though they hate A.A., they don't yet realize that they were coerced and culted into A.A. and that they can just walk away and choose to not drink...yet... on their own willpower.

  8. An example of an anti/XAers, and unfortunately some MOTRs interpretation of the Day At a Time concept;

    "AA causes slips. When someone is convinced that they are powerless and that they can only be sober for one 24 hour period at a time it becomes an excuse to drink. My best thinking got me out of AA."

    The daily reprieve is with which we maintain our spiritual fitness, not spend the day thinking about how we're gonna not drink. Does anybody see the difference?

  9. An antiAA/XA nutjob; I will “bash” AA at will and with impunity. As I stated before I have influnced others to quit AA and by doing so helped them achieve sobriety. I fully indend to continuue my efforts to undermine AA whenever I can. If AA does not like it their only option is to “turn it over.”

    Woo. We're in for it now. Guess we'd better pack it in and take those used coffee pots to the local flea market, sell or donate them Big Books to the library and shut this money-maker down.

  10. Here's the implication that A.A. is impossed and forced on people and that they are indoctrinated into the "powerless" paradigm and this leads to the sufferer drinking again;

    "Now for some really bad news. I just heard from a friend that a mutual friend of ours in now in detox for the third time since 2008. She is a classic victim of the AA mentality who after every slip basically says “well I can’t help it because I am powerless.” When she is sober and in her right mind she is a very bright woman and is open to hearing my experience. When she is in the grasp of the steppers she just mouths the AA line and becomes defensive of them. My dilemma is that I am not sure how much I should do right now to give her a new direction. My fear is that if she even mentions alternatives to AA in a recovery center that they will try to silence her or even punish her with more mandatory meetings or worse. What do others here thing is the best thing to do here?"

    So, according to anti/XAers, the program of A.A. is the alcoholism industry calling all the shots, forcing treatment centers, doctors, the court systems, etc. into mandating A.A. meetings for their clients. Holy crap. Some A.A. folks out there are doing some powerful P.I. and C.P.C. work, huh?

  11. Oh, well evidently, A.A. members have infiltrated all of these organizations. I've been hearing more and more of this;

    "The judge that put me in it for three years was a member of AA, as I later discovered. He was trying to give me a break, I guess, because the D.A. wanted to lock me up. I hated AA so much that I was prepared to go back to jail, but my P.O. relented on the meetings because I was doing so well my own way. Good luck and God bless!"

    So there ya go. A.A. is worse than jail. Could it be hell? Talk about self-disciprine!

  12. Oh, and they're not all atheists. They have a theist in their midst;

    "Surprising what the Bible contains: “These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence” Colossians 2:23 (NASB Reference Edition 1996).
    Now, why do you think Paul said that?"

    Why did Paul say that? Is A.A. a religious movement... allbeit a man-made one? You anti/XAers would sure love to think so, huh? A cult! Of course.

    Well, let me tell you of the A.A. I belong to; "You want to go drink? Go drink."

    That's the A.A. I know.

    I think church people are wonderful. Parts of the bible are exquisite... especially the red-lettered stuff. But when did Jesus ever drink too much wine, go on a bender and black out and throw his "relapse bolts" at everything that moved?

    At the end of the day, when the church-goer stubs his/her toe, he/she doesn't drink over it. I do.

    So, they argue, God can and should have solved alcoholism long ago. Is that right? So what about theft, murder, vandalism, gluttony, envy, wrath, pride, sloth, lust, greed?

    Us alkies are the Alpha and the Omega in the Sin department, huh? Free Will, dickheads. Oh, but we claim it to be a disease? Bullshit there too. We do NOT claim it to be a disease... at least some of us don't. But I won't deny that alcoholism has some definite physical components.

  13. "I’m 25, been in AA since I was 19. I abused other drugs mostly, but was taught in rehab to quit everything so I haven’t touched a drink either. But over the past year, I’ve felt that I wanted to be a social drinker with friends. I’ve been terrified of these thoughts because of what I’m told at meetings, so I always think that I need to work my program harder. I still have a lot of anxiety and self esteem issues, and I’m starting to feel that the AA program is contributing to it.
    I’m just scared to leave and try drinking with friends, I’ve been told that I will die. I’ve been going through a lot of stress lately so I’m worried I’m in some sort of denial and I’m looking for a way out by drinking. But whatever the case may be, I’ve questioned the program for a long time and I feel I’m just about to call it quits.
    Thanks for any feedback."

    I'll give you some feedback. Oh, and this brings up another good point... that any faults of treatment centers are A.A.s problems too. Unfortunately, this may be true. Not like we haven't tried to straighten them out before a time or two, huh?

    This notion that A.A. members sit around and tell people that to drink is to die. What ever happened to weighing statements in the correct "context"? What about someone that is confused about whether they are alcoholic or not? Is it not in the book on about page 30/31 to go out and try some controlled drinking? Step on over to the nearest barroom and drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It may be worth a bad case of the jitters.

    Does anybody remember that? What if you're an addict or a hard drug user, but not an alcoholic? All the more reason to separate A.A. from N.A. I know a guy in N.A. who can drink fucking beer! That's right! Isn't he breaking the code? Who give a fuck? He's not a fucking alcoholic. He doesn't belong in A.A. and has the fucking dignity to not go. He enjoys a beer or two. Wow! It's fucking incredible!

  14. Oh, and I love this one... the Inverse A.A. Program;

    "Guess what……you won’t die, grow horns or become a bad person!
    However, just be very careful in what you decide to do and use your 6 years sobriety and judgement accordingly! I found that once I quit AA, the actual desire to have a drink disappeared totally……….because I now felt I could drink. Bizarre but true."

    So, just go to A.A. for a while... withstand some torture... then quit. You will soon find yourself free from liquor and become a social butterfly that will succeed at life in ways you've never dreamed. So... chalk one up for the A.A. is hell theory. Go to A.A., then put your ass in reverse and live happily ever after. It's like Cinderfuckingrella.

  15. Now here we have the anti/XAer therapist;

    "elcome *****! I believe 19 is way too young for AA. You’ve spend some formative years with these people… You know, you do deserve to know whether or not you can have a drink with your buddies.

    My advice is this: Disentangle yourself from AA, and do get some professional help with deprogramming. Do this before you experiment, because the indoctrination will hit you hard and you won’t have the tools to deal with it. What concerns me is the AA teaching that “alcoholism is progressive” — in other words, even though you have been abstinent, your alcoholism is still progressing, and you will resume drinking right where you would be if you had never quit. (“My disease is out doing pushups in the parking lot.”)

    It happens often that — because of these whacky beliefs — people who “go out” on AA, go out on a bender. They believe they’re powerless, that they can’t control themselves. And then there’s the guilt. And the fear.

    So, deal with those things first: Find a good therapist, someone who can help you break the spell, to see the AA indoctrination rationally. If you’re still feeling anxious, scared, worried — afraid you will die — then I think it’s really really important that you work through this before you embark on new adventures."

    Now... if you happen to be of the anti/XAer persuasion, this appears to be good advice.

    Nice that A.A. is being treated like an indoctrination. Is it really that imposing on society? I thought A.A. was still one drunk... one who is sober that is... trying to help another drunk.

    I don't know about the exact truth of the progression of alcoholism. I do know that Joe and Charlie made a career out of talking about it. I do know what it's like to go drink again.

    I came into A.A. as a dangerous drunk. I've gone back to drinking a number of times and did my damnedest to drink successfully. I blacked out before and I blacked out some more. I tried some controlled drinking in more ways that you can imagine. I even tried to sip Scotch with a splash of luke-warm water. Nothing worked.

    Thank-you very much anti/XAers, but we alcoholics are the experts of what being an alcoholic is. If you think we've hustled some non-alkies into A.A., you may have a case. I belong to a group which does the exact opposite. We work hard to qualify people into and out of A.A. But in the end, it's up to the individual. If a non alky gets hustled into A.A., it's not a good thing for anybody.

    Maybe, just maybe, you'll awaken some of them. We've been trying long and hard enough. We even put Step 1 right up there in the front. And in How it Works, we say, "If you want what we have, and are willing to go to any lengths to get it, then you are ready to take certain steps."

  16. Now our poor deprived 25 year old;

    "Thanks for the replies. ***, this is one of the arguments that I have had against AA for a long time, that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy once people decide to have a drink. And since one sip is the same as 20 drinks, both are a “slip” in AA, why not go all the way, right? And I always hated that quote about the disease doing pushups out in the parking lot. There are so many irrational and superstitious beliefs being pushed that I feel like a sucker for buying into it.
    I’ve been in therapy for a few months, and my therapist seems to share similar views about AA, so I think she will be able to support me. Stanton Peele also recommended a therapist that deals with people deciding to resume social drinking, so it may be worth having a few phone session with her too.
    I really feel that to get to the next phase in my life I need to break out of this organization and learn how to make decisions for myself. I think a lot of personal growth will come from the ability to make this decision even though my family and the whole AA community that I have met will not be supportive. Some decisions are tough I guess…"

    So just tell me this... were you hustled into A.A. or did you take a step on your own and lie to yourself just a smidgeon about being an alcoholic in the first place?

    If you were hustled into A.A., then just why not walk away and try some controlled drinking? If you have to play Victim Card Bingo™ with your therapist, then that's fine... I guess... but why not just grow some dignity and do it on your own? Even if you want to play the Cult-victim card, leave A.A. now. Can you do that? No, you can't. Because... what if you find out that your are NOT an alcoholic? What if ... it's something else? What if you really really are fucked up?

    What if you're a dreaded... gasp! anti/XAer?

  17. So here, A.A. is likened to being a snake and a disease;

    "*****, your decision to leave AA behind is a sure sign of sobriety. Once you internalize the fact that you are not powerless you can make other decisions about your life free of AA indoctrination. Abstinence is sobriety. You have been told by 12 steppers that sobriety consists of attending meetings and “working a good program” for the rest of your life. The truth is that once you have quit using and drinking you have by definition achieved sobriety and can get on with your life. IMHO you should remain abstinent while you shed your AA skin. I am on the fence about wheather or not it is possible to go back to social drinking. I have read that some people can, but for me it is not worth the risk of getting in over my head again.

    Sorry to end on a tragic note, but I found out recently that a friend I had lost contact with who struggled with drinking for many years recently died form a combination of booze and pills. I am told that he had been in and out of treatement centers numerous times in the past decade or so and did several 90 in 90 trips only to relapse each time. When I knew him he was a very strong minded man with a lot of confidence. These are traits that AA brainwashes out of people. AA would say that his “disease” got him, but I say that AA is a disease."

    Oh the drama. You anti/XAers could stage a Soap Opera... Brought to you by Palm Spring!

  18. Powerless over alcohol? Live unmanageable? For life? Not allowed to think?

    "i was in AA for 36 days. i started reading all these negative and horror stories about it. when i called to check in with my sponsor yesterday about it he went off on me, told me i “wasn’t ready for sobriety” and i should work the steps harder. i always felt like a few things were off, because i was told i cant be trusted to think for myself because “you’re new, you don’t know anything.” he then told me “- you, and i never want to – see you at any of the meetings again.” and throughout all that drama i didn’t even think about drinking and in all honesty…if that’s the type of people in AA i want nothing to do with it. if they think i’m “going back out” again, then whatever. people told me to get another sponsor, but what’s the point? if we supposedly have no power over alcohol and our life is unmanageable why would i like someone with those things as well be my sponsor? it’s ludicrous."

    Are there really sponsors like this? The scary thing is... that someone would NOT kick them in the balls.

    I'm sticking with my current belief about good sponsorship; a good sponsor is one who doesn't tell you what to do and denies being a sponsor in the first place.

    Guess what... you are responsible for you! Decide in or out! If you decide out, great! Your problem and our problem is solved. I am not powerless today and my life is manageable. Why? Because I did steps... I do steps. And some bleeding deacon is out there muttering... "Doing steps is just teaching you to behave like the non-alkies do without being asked in the first place."

    Be good to others. Don't steal. Don't cheat. Don't lie... eventually it will come back to you. Stand guard against selfish, dishones, fearful, resentful behavior. Why? Because being shown the way to patience, tolerance, kindliness, and love is better.

  19. Well it turned out nice... you deprogrammed an non-alky... I think...

    "So things ended up going well. Met my friend after work, and we each had 1 pint at a local bar. It was a good time and it wasn’t really much of an issue to stop after that, I didn’t particularly want a second. We did a bit of shopping after and then went to eat some Chinese food and that was that.
    It was a very enlightening experience. I did not turn into an out of control fiend, but rather felt that I’m taking back control of my life rather than depending on an outside authority to tell me how to act and feel.
    This site is what got me started on my search for real information about addiction. Not sure how I stumbled here, but I’m glad I did! But because I’m questioning everything I’ve also had ideas that I would be able to moderate other substances as well, which may be a different ball game than alcohol for me…"

    Had ideas that you would be able to moderate other substances as well?

    Wonderful! Other substances... like what? Pokin' a little smot? Go for it! Oh, but don't get caught. Maybe you can tell a doctor that you have chronic nausea... and get a prescription for the chronic.

    Or maybe just a little meth? Or... maybe not.

    See... "other substances" can be sort of illegal...and even dangerous when mixed with your new found buddy.

    Anyway... you don't have that 6 year Chip weighing you down anymore, huh? Congrats! Have a drink on me.

  20. Ah... how cute! Looks like **** found an anti/XA sponsor!

    "Hey, *****, I’m so glad to hear that you had a good time! I’m also glad you checked in. Awesome. At the risk of being overbearing in my advice… Why don’t you keep a little journal of your new adventure? Write about what you’re doing and how you’re feeling about it, while you get your feet under you. It’s amazing the sorts of things that come flying out of your mind when you write, that you didn’t even know were there… I’m just thinking that might be a good idea, because that way, if there are any morbid AA boogeymen slinking around, you might be able to expose them before they have a chance to blindside you.

    I’m also very glad you found us. I hope you stick around."

    Now this is great. You have an anti/XA sponsor, and you can drink. Just journal a bit and share your diary...er... journal with your cyber buddies. And like them, if your life gets off track from here on out, you can blame A.A.! Yay! It's win-win.

  21. andreasheinz says *****, nonsense.
    If stop first, 2 pints after. Then you’d not talk that shit.
    Else, go fuck the world w/ your stupid drugs. Have a “nice” time.

    Uh-oh. It looks like there's a turd in the punchbowl...er my Youtube buddy got out of his straight-jacket and found a computer! Shame shame.

  22. Uh-oh. There's dissention in Utopia;

    If you are truly an alcoholic (i.e. alcohol addict) the return to out-of-control drinking is not always immediate. It may take a few weeks before the old problems return. I know this from first-hand experience. Alcohol is a slow, insidious poison. Beware of those “experts” here that are supporting your risky decision to return to drinking. Their advice is no better than the “experts” in AA who tell newcomers to stop taking their prescription meds!
    Have you taken the precaution of discussing this decision with your doctor? How about your family? They’re the ones who you will most likely be calling if drinking gets you into trouble. In my state (**) even one beer will get you a DUI, and if there is any sort of accident involved….well, I hope that you have funds aplenty for your attorney! You could even be mandated back into the program again.
    The best way out of AA is not through the bar – that’s the way back into that program! Don’t drink and don’t go to meetings! Those here that may be encouraging you have absolutely nothing to lose if you get into trouble, and will be of no help to you if that should happen.
    I am saying all this partly because of recent news of two men in your age group that had “a few beers with friends” and decided to go rock climbing without any equipment. One fell 300 feet to his death, and the other 100 feet. Alcohol can screw up your judgment like that, even for the non-alcoholic. No one gets into trouble by abstaining from the stuff, and it is still possible to go out with your friends as long as you stick to N.A. beers. My friends have actually paid me to go with them, since they needed a sober driver. Now, I no longer am available for that after watching them make idiots of themselves too many times.
    End of lecture. Good luck!"

  23. That guy up there ^ told me I cuss too much. I've only posted once over there since he reamed me for it.

    He and I are probably more alike than different... except for my vulgarity of course. But, I agree with much of what he says, even though he's an anti/XAer. He's an anti/XAer with a brain. Go figure.

  24. ***** says @******: Thank you for the advice. Do you mean that you think there is a safe level of alcohol use, but not with other substances? I can understand on an individual basis if a person has not had a history of alcohol abuse that it may be less problematic for them. But I don’t see why alcohol would have a safe level of us whereas all other drugs would not. Why would this be the case? Alcohol is a drug, albeit socially acceptable and in beverage form.
    @The Guy Above^, I appreciate your input. I have in fact discussed my thoughts with a therapist who knew me while I was an active addict, as well as my current therapist who I see weekly. Neither of them seemed to think that it was necessary for me to stay in AA, although they left the decision of drinking up to me. I mentioned before that I never had a problem with alcohol specifically.
    People can run into problems with alcohol, but just because some people have a few drinks and do something stupid and dangerous doesn’t mean that most people are at risk of ending up dead after a few drinks. You don’t need alcohol to have fun, that is true. But if my only reason for abstaining is fear that is not based on actual fact, then that is a problem too. If the belief that I am diseased and something is wrong with me is spreading to other areas of my life (which I think it has), then that is a problem.
    Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate all points of view!

  25. So, *****... you are starting to lose your street cred. Five years sober, huh? I wonder if maybe your drunkalog didn't drop a notch or two.

    I appreciate your ability to rationalize sober and see your truth in drugs and booze. But... have you changed your tune a bit? DId you used to be worse or did you truly get hustled into A.A. and just need for the heat to go away? If the latter, why bash and insult those that might be a tad bit worse than you?

    And let's talk about booze and drugs for a sec... what kind of drugs did/do you do? Don't give me this alcohol is a drug and a drug is a drug bullshit. Alcohol is food. It will get you drunk if you drink beyond a certain amount. I am of the belief that it affects me differently than you.

    So... why do A.A.? Why not N.A.? Was A.A. less lame? Maybe C.A. or MethA. was for you. Which drug? Extacy? Pharms? Whatever you could kype off your mom? Pick a color?

    I am of the belief that you can be a social or a hard drug user and not an addict. I did drugs and never got addicted to them... except for coffee and tobacco. But not what I'd consider a conscious altering drug. I'm not addicted to alcohol. I'm an alcoholic. There is a difference. That statement will offend some. I don't give a shit. It's the truth.

  26. The dood up there^ "*****:
    Diseased? Something is wrong with you? Aren’t you the guy who took positive action regarding his problems, and kicked his habit? Give yourself a pat on the back for that!
    AA doesn’t like what I’ve just said, because my statements encourage people, and give them well-deserved self respect. People like that don’t stick around, and keep the lie of AA going!
    You don’t have to prove anything to anyone. Do a positive inventory of your strengths; it sounds to me like you have a lot of them! You are honest, determined, inquisitive, intelligent, brave and more for starters. The true losers never clean up their act in the first place, so why would you even begin to think that you’re one of them (unless it’s the old AA programming coming through). I read back through all your postings, and I see that you were in the program for six (!) years! How could you stand it for so long? You must also have the constitution of an ox!!
    Try this idea, if you would: just have an NA when you are out with friends. True friends will understand if you tell them that “you’re on the wagon”. False friends will not (my real friends never questioned me). See if you have any cravings for “real” beer. If you do, consider this: the only difference is the alcohol content.
    I had a good friend (a Vietnam vet like myself) who always started one of his countless slips with a beer. He never liked the stuff, but it always “loosened him up” enough to enable him to indulge in his real habit – hard drugs! He would soon flip out on those, and his other friends would call me to help them get him to the hospital, or clinic, or rehab, or whatever. Quite an experience, restraining another “Nam vet from jumping out a car window! I don’t know if he’s dead or alive now, since he didn’t return from his last stay wherever…
    Don’t take the chance that this could be you! I like to gamble, and I’d place the odds on you right now being able to drink (it is a drug, right) safely at about ten to one – against you. You’ve been away from it for several years, and don’t have any built-up tolerance. You place yourself in bars where other drugs may be available, and you have a history of substance abuse (like myself). Russian roulette is only five to one, right? So where are you going?
    All this to beat a lousy program like AA that I have beaten for 30 years without drinking?
    Illegitimi non carborundum!
    (Don’t let the bastards get you down)!"

    Hey, Viet Nam Vet, do you like Bob Dylan? If so, I got a song for ya... (in his best Bob Dylan impression)... You Throoooow... Jussssssssssst lllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiikkkkkkkkkke a womannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...

    Dood, Viet Nam Vet Dude, we in A.A. call that Frothy Emotional Appeal. Good luck with that.

  27. *** says "@Dood: Thank you for the compliments. I do not really focus on what my strengths are and I would like to change this. That’s a big part of what my decision is about, being able to decide for me what I think is best no matter what everybody at meetings and my family may believe.
    But I just can’t accept pursuing a goal (abstinence) out of fear anymore. For the last year I have been terrified of drinking, imagine that! I never used to enjoy drinking much, I’ve been sober for years, and for a year on and off I’ve been terrified about drinking! How does that make sense? One of the benefits of AA, I suppose. I could no longer continue with that and wanted to just face it and see for myself. If I am proven wrong, then I learned from the experience and can make a decision not to drink based on actual experience.
    @***: I think you really understand my reasoning. I do not want this to have to be an issue that I even think about, and I want to be able to have the confidence to decide things for myself whether others agree or not. I’m very happy to have your site as a source of feedback, it’s not everywhere that it is easy to talk about these things. Like you said, maybe my decision will end up being problematic, but then I’ll have learned and can begin to focus on abstinence once again.
    @*: I agree that information on “normal” drinking is useful and should be available. The majority of people who drink or experiment with drugs do not have a problem with it."

    Absolutely. "The majority of people who drink or experiment with drugs do not have a problem with it." And it's normal for them to abstain from booze for 6 years and wind up on Stinkin' Thinkin'. Ya ya.

  28. Dood says, "*****:
    I strongly suspect that you made your decision to return to drinking (and possibly other drugs as you implied in your July 9 post) some time before you posted your first message here. Your “reasoning” is a masterpiece of rationalization – I haven’t heard anything quite like it before! I wouldn’t assume that a return to any previous state of abstinence is guaranteed, though; you will probably be going to places that you didn’t plan to and won’t necessarily like.
    One good thing about all this, though: you have shown everyone here just how well AA and therapy really work! I can only guess at the cost to society that you have been and probably will continue to be.
    Good luck to you on your “vision quest”, but don’t bother to tell me how it goes. I’ve seen enough already."

    Wow, dood! Where did you learn your guilt remorse, fire and brimstone? Not A.A.? How about Father Nelson? Did you get Father Nelsoned?

    So I guess you don't have to go to A.A. to be a bleeding deacon, but can still blame life's problems on A.A. Wow. A.A. is more powerful than I thought.

  29. ***** says "Dood, I’m not quite sure why you take offense to my choices. I appreciate the feedback you have given me, but don’t pretend to know what the outcome of my decisions will be. Nor do i appreciate being referred to as a burden to society."

    It's on! It's a keyboard fight between an anti/XA newbie and an anti/XA 35 year oldtimer!

    Get the popcorn icon! This is better than Sober Recovery!

  30. "Dood, This sanctimonious bullying and disrespectful, demeaning language is way out of line. You found a way to make *****’s personal decision about you (“cost to society”) in order to justify attacking him. You don’t know him, and he is not asking for permission.

    I didn’t “blacklist” McGowdog, but I certainly will blacklist you if you continue to bring this kind of abuse to other members here."

    I'm still famous! Er... infamous!

    Remember, Dood, when you told me to quit cussing? Fuckin' A!

  31. Oooh... the keyboard fight has become Dood vs ST;

    Are you still smarting over my criticism of your advice to *****? He is a 25 year old drug user who has been in weekly therapy for 6 years, who is contemplating a return to his former lifestyle. You encouraged him and advised him to keep a journal of his experiences – I advised him quite otherwise, at length and based on my experiences and finally questioned the cost to society of his past/future lifestyle (i.e., rehabs, therapy, court costs, etc.). I saw nothing in your training and experience that would qualify you to make a recommendation as careless as yours, and I challenge you to find a real MD that would.
    Your approach is much like that of some AA old timers who toss a fiver to a newcomer and tell him or her to go back to the bars and “do some more research”.

    If you want to be highhanded and bar me from this site for what I said to poor Brian, that’s fine; go ahead. I won’t be censored by you or anyone else either here or anywhere else (ever hear of the First Amendment? – I once put my life on the line so you and others could have websites like this ).

    I have been getting a little bored anyway with all the criticism of AA here, with few ideas presented for workable ways for addicts to recover. RECOVER, right, not RELAPSE - can you fathom the difference between these two words? Here’s another word in the R’s for you to consider: RESPONSIBILITY, both for the addict and for those dealing with them. How can an addict learn that while drinking or using?

    I hope you will at least leave my postings here, so visitors can see that AA is not the only dogmatic, controlling game in town!"

    Buddy, you did that without cussing. Hats off to ya. But you did go ALL BOLD. Anywho... I am here to officially tell you that you would earn a Sober Recovery ban right there.

    Not sure where the ST ban line is. I officially crossed the ban as a newbie there said that I make them not want to post there. So what do I do? I just go away. No fucking announcement.

    Stand down, soldier. Sit down and shut the fuck up. You're not that important. You are and always be an anti/XAer. Keep A.A. out your frothy emotional lonely worthless mouf.

    You make me want to "Ralph". I am a patriotic American though. But I don't need to be reminded what your fat mouth sacraficed. Now go crawl to some alley where you can get back to bashing A.A.

  32. Dood got sentenced to an A.A. meeting by the minion *;


    That was cute! There’s a lot of “cute” on this site, but little more. Anyway, I was hoping that *** would respond with backing from a REAL doctor qualified to deal with addicts (like the one I saw 31 years ago), but all I have so far is your response.

    In **S, as little as two years of college (with a very easy curriculum) can get a person into the alcoholism counseling racket, and just four years gets one a CAC certificate. I had two friends in that business, and neither could do much else. No wonder the success rate for rehabs here is only 1%!
    Gotta go – don’t want to miss the steps readings!"

  33. Woo...


    I engaged your first response to ***** respectfully, explained my own reasoning, and acknowledged that your advice might prove to be the wisest. I never insisted that I had the correct approach.

    And you can believe that my response to your abusive comment to ***** was a genuine response to your abusiveness. Really. Believe it. The fact that you don’t think I could actually have a legitimate reason for responding as I did suggests to me that you probably don’t know how abusive that was. I mean, you actually imply that we’re draconian because you aren’t allowed to be a bully.

    I will not censor comments or opinions. I didn’t censor yours, and it’s not because you thought you needed to shame me into leaving it up. I’m not going to ban you unless you continue to treat members the way you treated *****. I don’t know if you understand why that was abusive (I suspect not), but I’m just not going to tolerate it. I have a great threshold for heated debates and all kinds of smack-talking and tantrums, but this wasn’t one of those situations.

    Considering what your expectations for this blog are (Doctors’ advice, substance abuse counseling, support group, treatment suggestions…) I think you might want to have another look at the tagline up there. Why the heck would someone come to someone’s blog and chide them for not writing about something completely different? We have a focus.

    Finally, thanks for defending the 1st Amendment. I am sorry you don’t really know what it means."

    Dood and I ought to teach Advanced Anger Management classes. I wonder what color his face is now, because he just got filleted.

  34. An ex-Sober Recovery minion jumps on Dood;

    "says Dood you would be better suited to AA. People there love dictating to people what they should and shouldn’t do.
    ***** needs to discover this himself what does and deosn’t work, cautiously and with knowledge of other peoples experience.
    Forcing abstainence doesn’t work it potentially creates guilt induced binge drinking. Prohibition didn’t work, ironically, AA was formed shortly after.
    I think writing a diary is an excellent idea, then you can see whether you have control. Infact its what my local addiction services recommend"

    Ha! This minion at least had the balls to Freudian Slip the word "diary" when referring to "Journal".

  35. Here comes MA off his thrown;

    "MA says Why is it that the people who are apt to cite the first amendment, don’t understand the first amendment?"

    Come on Dood. If you really want to bait Forum Mods and Blog Authors who's egos have gone to their heads, use the term "Censorship".

    Censorship is the magic woid.

  36. ***** says, "It is AA/NA that I have been regularly doing for the past 6 years."

    Oh, thanks for clearing that up. So... I wonder why you went to A.A. at all and not just gone to N.A.

    I know a gal from Denver who had a guy from a strong A.A. group go to their N.A. meeting and show them how to use the BB for their NA meetings. She soon learned that she was an alcoholic and not an addict.

    Here's the problem with andas... once the heat gets too hot on one problem, you just jump over to the other problem. How convenient. Either you're alky or you're not. Decide.

  37. Oh boy! Some anti/XAer minion here claims that the steps were forced on them and it gave them PTSD. Wow!

    "* says @* if required to go, REALLY remember “take what you need and leave the rest” and do NOT listen seriously to exhortations about “doing the whole program” unless there’s a way to do it that you really think would be helpful to you. The second (non traumatic) time I attended Alanon For A Reason, I was reading the Orange Papers at the same time. This really helped me keep my head.
    @********, more on the health system: I got PTSD from the bullying situation of having them work the steps on me and make me work them on myself. It really was like interrogation/ torture, as it seemed one could never be honest enough for them no matter what one did, or humble enough. So then later I had to be treated for that, still am to some extent, as it’s hard to sort out all the elements that go into the state of shell shock that can come over me.
    My point: it was very difficult to find anyone who was willing to treat it or even countenance it, in part because of what I know caused it. It was so frustrating, I dreamed of going to one of those centers for torture victims! I finally did find someone but it took a lot of seeking.
    This, again, is why I think your kind of plan, to ask treatment centers why they use the 12 steps, is good. I also think (and this is a good idea) that to compile and make public a list of providers who are willing to recommend or can work with other methods, and are willing to be advertised in this way, would be very useful."

    They worked the steps on you? Just wow!

  38. Alternative Steps... like bizarro world;

    "******** says *, when I felt very uncomfortable with the whole thing, I just didn’t speak in meetings or get a sponsor. I certainly didn’t ‘do’ any steps. If you have read the orange papers you will know that only about 5% of aa members remain by the end of the first year. You are only doing what 95% if people do. Are you going to aa of your own accord or are you forced to go?

    Although I don’t think that there is a disease called alcoholism, I do belief in brainwashing. Reiterating publicly one’s powerlessness is a form of brainwashing and people come to belief that it is true and so it becomes true. You must tell yourself that you are not powerless. The concept of powerlessness is bizarre and damaging.

    My name is * and I am not an alcoholic.
    I am not powerless over alcohol.
    There are some alternative steps on exposeaa."

    I'm not an alcoholic...I'm not an alcoholic... There's no place like home... there's no place like home...

  39. An ST minion says @*****,

    I call it “Adopting the isms of AA.”

    When you walk into AA, they do their best to try to convince you that you are one of them. They use your own guilt and self-doubt as a weapon against you.

    AA tells you who you are… who you must become… and what you will become without AA.

    AA is all about getting you to join AA."

    Wow. And you same people dog me for being hardcore and underground. Hmmm.

  40. A newbie anti/XAer says "Just a quick note to mention that I left AA about six weeks ago and I am noticing that I genuinely feel better. My focus has been on self-empowerment and taking control of my own behavior in all areas of my life. It has not been easy, actually far more difficult than “turning it over” and then doing nothing while God has it. It is clear to me now that AA is the easier softer way that leads to some sort of flat-line mediocrity. I commend the people that exhibit real courage by standing up and taking responsibilty for every thought and action they have. It seems kind of cowardly to claim a disease is responsible when all the thoughts and behaviors that lead to me overdrinking were mine to begin with. Then, having to claim the problem is soooo big, only God can remove it from me…pleeeeze….. ( I used to say that actually, and only now do I realize how lame that really is)"

    Well that's nice. You're sober. So am I.

    "We never apologize to anyone for depending upon our Creator." "We never apologize for God."

    A.A. don't need you and they won't miss you.