Sunday, January 30, 2011

Wednesday, January 26, 2011


I came across a study of AA the other day the got me to thinking. It addressed the autonomy of each group and the problems that this autonomy can cause. Basically, any group of people can get together and call themselves an AA group. No license is required.

So I could gather a bunch of friends together who think like me - control freaks who believe in "my way or the highway"; who think that if you don't believe in God (our God) you're never gonna get sober and will surely burn in hell; who belittle the newcomer as someone who's a worthless piece of shit 'cause they don't know nothin'. Oh, and the 12 steps aren't suggestions - they're the only way to get sober. These friends carry around the Big Book (large print, paper back edition of course 'cause that's the biggest one) and are always thumbing through it during the meetings. Their idea of a "discussion" is to quote from the Bib Book. They've never had an original thought in their lives. Get the Idea?

So we start this AA group, register with GSO and inter-group, and get our meeting on the area schedule. And in walks this poor drunk, desperate for help, not knowing where to turn. He's ignored before, during, and after the meeting. How long do you think this poor guy is going to stick around? What's his impression of AA going to be based on this singular experience? I'll give you odds that he'll never attend another meeting. He'll also be the first in line to believe AA is a religious cult run by a bunch of fanatics. He's convinced he's right and he is. His perceptions are based on his experience and are his reality.

Sound farfetched? It's not. This shit is going on every day. We've all been to meetings that in some way resemble the one I described. Yeah, these meetings are far outnumbered by groups of people who follow the program as it was intended to be followed . But nonetheless, one bunch of assholes can do a lot of damage, not just to the reputation of AA but more importantly to the newcomers who reach out to us and run into this shit. AA is losing it's attraction because these people are accurately telling others about their experience with the program. It's the damage these morons who call themselves AA do to the newcomer that can keep me awake at night. When I read some attacks or criticisms of AA I can understand where these people are coming from. They were never exposed to AA, they were exposed to a bunch of idiots who are an anathema to everything we represent.

Now getting back to the study. It questioned the wisdom of the tradition of autonomy based on just the type of thing I outlined. It suggested that AA may want to revisit it's insistence on autonomy and consider instead a means of standardization, preventing groups like this from calling themselves AA. Groups would still be "autonomous" but would be required to adhere to certain standards if they wished to be considered an AA group.

So. This might solve the problem of the poor drunk who walked in the doors of hell looking for sobriety. Or would it? Are required standards the answer to the problem? Yeah, we have the 12 Traditions but nothing requires an AA group to abide by them.
You're an AA group if you call yourself one just as you're a member if you say you are.

So here's my question. Is the solution to the problem I described one of enforced standardization as the study suggests? Or would this open Pandora's Box and be the first step down that slippery slope to centralized authority? And if standardization isn't the answer, what is? Sometimes we only get one shot at showing a newcomer what AA is all about. Think how many times we miss that opportunity because of these "AA groups"; how many lives are ruined because some people never get to see what we're really all about. I accept that AA isn't for everyone but, damn it, we could at least make sure they understand the program before they decide if it'll work for them.

Your thoughts?

Monday, January 24, 2011

God is everything or God is nothing. What is your choice to be?

Topic at our meeting tonight.

If you chose God is everything, what is your experience with this?  Any recent experience with this?

How about God is nothing?  How does/did this work for you?  Especially in relation to facing a life without booze and a life without God?

Being a guy who does steps yearly, it's a simple proposition of facing life right now on my own... without God.  There's no God.  Just me and the bit of power I can muster to wind out my days.  What would that look like?  How am I doing with God's grace?  How am I doing with the Power of God at my fingertips?  Am I... of myself, nothing?  Or am I everything?  Can I manifest what I need to get by?  How do others see me?  Is my life a success?  Is it worth living?  Page 52 stuff.

Now, what does "God is everything" look like?  Am I willing to put God number 1 and me number 2?  How about... God number 1, y'all number 2, and me number 3?  Proposition kinda sucks... when I get honest with myself.  Would I do this if I didn't have to?  Do I have to?  What happens to me with relation to booze if I choose otherwise?

Can I keep myself sober?  If so, why did I ever wind up in A.A.?  If that is the case, and I'm still in A.A. or if I wasted away in A.A., did A.A. do its job of directing me to where I needed to go?  Or could I have been hustled into A.A.?  If so, could it be my fault that I let that happen?

Now... if I can't keep myself sober, does the need for Power seem like such a ridiculous proposition?  Are there some who can keep themselves sober and can... if they really want/need to, moderate and control their booze intake?  You know?  8 hours or 12 hours from bottle to throttle? 

I've been studying for my CDL and it says that booze affects our brain in such a way that we lose our ability to control judgment and inhibition.  So... this describes everybody.  The logical choice would seem to be "Don't ever drink and drive."  Either drink, or drive, period.  But... it happens.  I don't think that just alkies drink and drive.  I think that some people assume power and they rebel against rational decisions at times.  So... it's possible that many get sent to A.A. that need not face the question God is everything or God is nothing.

I also understand that there are those who will point out that Bill W. and the authors of the book stole this spiritual tool from elsewhere.  Well so be it.  Set that argument aside.  What does it mean to you?  What's your experience with it?  How have you used and benefited from that proposition?

Saturday, January 22, 2011

The Great Tony J Experiment

FTG (in her mind)

Well, it looks as if The Tony J Experiment has come to an end.

I'm blocked from ST again. No explanation or warnings this time.

As best as I can tell I questioned why they hate Chris R so much and that's one of the arbitrary, unspoken and always moving lines that I'm not allowed to cross.

Which is fine. I was pretty happy not being allowed to post there anyway. I have better things to do with my time.

All in all I say the experiment was a success. One person willing to argue facts and not allow the anti-AA's to shame him can't be talked down.

The only possible response is to kill the opposistion. They did it to John the Baptist. Hell, they even did it to Jesus.

Although unlike Jesus, I would probably throw one of them off a subway platform if the heat of the moment.

The point is, telling the truth to a spiritually dead crowd doesn't get you a thank you note.

Still, I can't say I hate them. I can't even say I have a resentment. I did what I had to do and now they've made it easy for me to move on.

So I shared at my men's meeting last night. I told them the site and the deal and got some good feedback.

One guy said, there are 5 billion people in the world and there's a group for everything. Good point. There are maybe 100 people on st. About a dozen regulars.
12 vs 2,000,000.

One guy shared about prayer and meditation and working with another alcoholic. I realized when I'm dicking around on st I'm not praying, meditating or working with another.

A few people shared on self righteousness. Yeah. The very same thing that pisses me off about the st crew is what fuels my arguments.

So, in conclusion, they are what they are. They only mean anything to me when I chose to read what they write.

So hopefully this little 5th/10th step thingy I'm doing here will help me get this crusade behind me so I can move on to better things.

Will it ? Who knows? That's why I'm praying on it. I know myself too well to trust myself.

I do know I was right when I repeated the little quip on the mental health blog. When you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

Joe Cool Says :

"AA's been around time and will be around long after we're gone. I don't care about Orange, MFHA, Peele, or any other critic of the program. The tradition says that we don't engage in public controversy, so I don't get into pissing contests with morons who don't know wtf they're talking about. Especially morons who aren't alcoholics and have nfi about the experience of alcoholism and recovery. "

Yup. Joe has said all that really needs to be said.
Do I have a 'right' as an individual to express my opinions and argue with the anti-AA people ? Sure.
Is it a worthwhile effort ? No. Not when I'm honest with myself.
And Joe hits the nail on the head. They quite simply aren't alcoholics. If they were they'd understand what we're talking about. Even if they didn't agree with us, they'd understand.
And my business as far as AA is concerned is with alcoholics. Good post Joe.

Wednesday, January 19, 2011

Could Alcoholism possibly be a mental health issue?

I never thought of myself as having a mental illness... all joking aside.  But... I've felt I didn't fit in to the norm of society somehow... and this describes me sober as well as drunk.  Now... I think few who have travelled the road I have would argue that there might just be something underlying... besides the alcohol.  Are you with me so far?

So... has anyone heard of MHFA?

Here is the Mental Health First Aid Action Plan;

Action A; assess for risk of suicide or harm

Action L; Listen nonjudgementally

Action G; Give reassurance and information

Action E; Encourage appropriate professional help

Action E; Encourage self help and other support strategies

So there's a first aid for mental situations as well as for physical situations. Let's look at alcoholism as being a mental health situation, shall we?

Mental health problems include; depression, anxiety, misuse of alcohol and drugs... and even food.

"Many people are not well informed about how to recognize mental health problems, how to respond, or what effective treatments are available. There are many myths and misunderstandings about mental health problems. Common myths include the idea that people with mental disorders are dangerous, that it is better to avoid psychiatric treatment, that people can use willpower to pull themselves out of mental health problems, and that only weak people have mental health problems. Lack of knowledge may result in denial and avoidance. With greater community knowledge about mental health problems, people will be able to recognize problems in others and be better prepared to offer support."

"There is a stigma associated with mental health problems. Stigma involves negative attitudes (prejudice) and negative behavior (discrimination). Stigma can lead people to hide their problems and delay seeking help. People are often ashamed to discuss mental health problems with family, friends, teachers, and/or work colleagues and may be reluctant to seek treatment and support because of concerns about what others will think. Stigma can lead to exclusion of people with mental health problems from employment, housing, social activities, and relationships. People with mental health problems can internalize the stigma and begin to believe the negative things others say about them. Better understanding of the expereinces of people with mental health problems can reduce stigma and discrimination. People with mental health problems may not have the insight that they need help or may be unaware that effective help is available. Some mental health problems can cloud a person's thinking and rational decision-making processes, or the person can be in such severe distress that they cannot take effective action."

So... is it not stigma and discriminaiton that we get from the anti/XAer camp?  They dare to judge us for supporting our "support strategy" and encouraging others to give it a shot.  They dare to mock us for having a less than cordial attitude to insults and vicious attacks on our character and motives.  They condemn us for our seeming proclivity to dwell on death, suicide, violence, destruction, etc.  "Stand with us on the firing line..."

What if...

What if  ... it was a mental illness... among other things?  What would this imply with current and past treatments of the over-indulgence of the mysterious elixir?  What would it imply with regards to the "disease model?"  Would it support it?  Compliment it?  Run contrary to it?

I could think in terms of what we have done right and wrong with regards to 12 step work in A.A.

My understanding of 12 step work in A.A. boils down to this;  Try to find out about the prospect's situation and their past history with booze.  Do they drink alcoholicly... aka show lack of control physically and mentally?  Are they receptive to learning what the definition of alcoholic drinking is and do they currently identify?  If so, does booze scare them?  Do they want to do something about their condition or do they just want to negotiate something to terms of their own... to bargain back for rights or things lost?  Do they want and need help?

But what if they don't exactly fit the A.A. description of the alcoholic?  What then?  Do we know where to send them or can we suggest they try something else?  Or... what if they are an alcoholic to the A.A. book's description and they do not/can not do our proposals for recovery for ... whatever reason?  Can we turn them lose and there again, steer them to seek "appropriate professional help?"

How do "we" know that our ducks are in a row?  How do we hold accountable those who set out to prey on and harm these vulnerable folks?  Well, it's been my experience that you don't.  As a boss I had used to tell me, "Give them enough rope, they'll hang themselves."  The anti/XAers would sure weigh in with a more drastic proposal; yeah, just torch A.A. to the ground.

How about let's see what's right about A.A. and look a little more closely at this MHFA model and see where it fits in.  Can it help us?  Can it help us help "them"?  Can it help bridge the gap between pro 12 Step and other methodologies?

As far as the spiritual approach; I think that more and more now, there is a need for acceptance and understanding of secular methods and there should be a way to bridge the gap between the two regardless of the recovery method.  This would of course require a cease-fire from both sides.  If you want/need to belong to a fundamental Christian-based 12 Step group, find one or create one.  If you want/need to belong to a secular 12 step or alternative recovery method, find one or create one.  In fact, if you're as secular and rebellious and you claim, I offer you this challenge; form and A.A. meeting and do whatever you want with the Alcoholic's Anonymous book, the steps, a 3' by 5' poster of Bill W, Dr Bob, and Dr. Silkworth and do what you want, so long as you don't "affect other groups or A.A. as a whole."  Drink beer and throw darts at Bill W, and then us the A.A. book for fire kindling if you'd like.  See if A.A.W.S. comes and breaks your meeting up.  I doubt it.  If it helps folks get sober and helps them to improve their lives, then great.  But if not, try something else.

I think I've covered a few thoughts.  Let's see if what I have so far generates some conversation.  If you say I'm too vulgar and over the top nasty and angry, then give me a smidgeon of credit for trying to think positive here.  If it's blood you want, You Got It!

Tuesday, January 18, 2011

Trolls... and how to feed them

Evidently, our adversaries in Cyber-Recovery have drawn their lines in the sand and told their minions to stop coming outside to play with us.

tintop says
What needs to be done is clear as crystal.

Do or not do. And live with the consequences as best you can.

January 17, 2011, 3:27 pm
says ftg:

see ya

January 17, 2011, 6:00 pm

says arguing with a fool makes you a double fool. Eventually, you may figure that out ftg. good luck to you. you may need it.

January 17, 2011, 7:03 pm

says z — I have to decide whether this place is worth it.

Ignorant peckerwoods such as that excreble creature aka, ‘tony’ drive the quality of this blog to the vanishing point. I do not suffer fools. Personally, I have had individuals better than that vulture, ‘tony ‘, escorted by security out of the building.

January 17, 2011, 8:38 pm
says correct. The fools are completely useless. And, they know that they are.

January 17, 2011, 9:11 pm

Rotten Ralph
says FTG:

The “trolls” as you call them, actually add spice to this blog. They were more prevalent last year, and I especially miss McGowdog, believe it or not. I think that you may have overlooked the fact that most of the people here are old enough to take care of themselves, and argue their positions on issues in an adult manner.

Your suggestions on how to deal with these “trolls” are similar to AA’s current means of dealing with dissenters, which include shunning, banning (and even physical threats, as toward me).

I hope that you cool down and rethink your position, before this site becomes just another cult, as Tony J accuses on his own blog.

January 17, 2011, 10:05 pm

Well thank you, Rotten Ralph.

Rotten Ralph says

The majority of people commenting here are the “loyalists” of Stinkin Thinkin, and will agree with you if you tell them that the earth is flat and the “trolls” should be pushed over the edge.

These same “loyalists” are molding this site into a monotonous, repetitious rant against AA that demonstrates the same group dynamics as AA has. Others have already posted about the overwhelming negativity here at times.

If you would close off your site to only those who completely agree with your all beliefs, then at least state those beliefs openly on your home page. I don’t at all agree with one matter that I believe you stand for (that addiction is not a disease), and I have argued that point recently. If that makes me a “troll” in your eyes, OK, but then so is nearly everyone else in the world outside of Stinkin Thinkin..

January 17, 2011, 10:38 pm

Ya see now, ftg?  You gotta protect your users like tintop from the trolls!

Once you round up your trolls by the ear and lead them to your "community" section, maybe you'll get a chance to get some f2f time with your friends/family.

Happy MLK Day!

Monday, January 17, 2011

JR from Stinkin' Thinkin' says,

JR Harris says
I’m just surprised that I got them to pull down the naked 14 year old looking girl picture from the website. Looking back at his posts Tony J does have a sexist opinion of women. It is obvious he does not respect women and I am sure that none of his AA buddies do either. You know the old saying “birds of a feather flock together”. I mean come on they have a picture of a woman sitting on a mans face and claim it is one of the people from this site and the caption

“Looks like I picked a bad year to quit fighting Anti-AA.”

What are they trying to say? That if you quit fighting AA you get laid? What scares me the most is that these people run meetings and have influence over them. I mean the owner of the site is bragging how it is his birthday and is going to go home after work and do his wife. Civilized people do not talk that way. I am afraid for my nieces who are about the same ages as the ones posted on that site, will be approached by one of these two. It is obvious what they want and they have learned mind control to get it.

What?  I didn't say I was gonna go home and do my wife.  I said I was going to come home from my A.A. meeting and get frisky with her.  That doesn't mean I'm going to "do" her.  Do you have a problem with this?  And then when I return home from my A.A. meeting, I have a life that's worth living at home too.  This is what I'm demonstrating in that statement.  That's why I talk that way.  I'm sober.  I have a wonderful wife.  We have a wonderful home together.  I have a JOB!  I work and earn my pay.  I pay bills.  I basically have a life that's worth living.  I don't harm people and get away with it... not in meetings and not anywhere else.
If you have a problem with me and post over there, why not post over here?  Do you think you're making me look bad in front of your fellow minions for celebrating an A.A. birthday?
We celebrate our birthdays here.  A year is a big deal.  Seven years is something else too.  It's the longest continuous sobriety I've ever had in my whole life. 
You got  a problem with the banter between Tony J and Mike?  What business of yours is that anyway?  Those two go way back to a Mentalhelp blog that's been ongoing for two or more years.
Shame us all you want JR.  It's your beady little finger that's gonna get out of joint.
BTW, thanks for wishing me a happy birthday.  As some of you anti/XAer folks say, "There's no wrong way to get and stay sober".  Unless of course, that includes A.A.

You are way out of line with your comments about me, JR.  But, I'm sure your fellow minions at Stinkin' Thinkin' love to eat it up.  Have a nice life.

Stinkin’ Thinkin’ Best Of Comedy Show

Stinkin’ Thinkin’ Best Of Comedy Show

Here are a few moments of recent postings at ST where a sane person stumbled onto the set just to be dive-bombed and just to have shit flung on them for doing so;

MA sets us up with a quote of a non-anti/XAer here to lampoon;

MA’s treatment of a new poster at ST… putting the poster in the spotlight by putting a star on his newly created blog posting;

Hogwashed says, “LOL, I see most of the negative comments people are leaving are from those who have never been to an AA meeting, or went to a few and quit going. Sounds like to me you are fear mongering over something you have no clue about, or are soured by something in your personal life, and taking it out on AA as a whole, If you’re going to speak about something, get your facts straight before you comment, and stop being ignorant.

AA doesn’t recruit first of all. If somebody wants to beat their addiction on will power, then go for it and see how far you’ll make it, because no one shows up at an AA meeting for coffee and conversation, so something must be seriously wrong with you if you’re there in the first place.

Secondly, AA cannot be held responsible for some deranged people that should be in jail to begin with, so why don’t you take it up with the judge or jury that released these convicts. AA is a non profit organization that wants nothing but to help other suffering alcoholics, in order to help themselves.

Thirdly, if anyone is a DR. or scientist here and has the cure for alcoholism, why are you keeping it a secret?? If not then close your lips, and get off your soap box.

AA has been the only thing that has been closest to a “cure” for addiction since 70 years ago when it started. And was started in part by 2 doctors in addition to Bill W..

Fourthly.. Convicts are sent mandatory to AA and such programs by the judge.

People who voluntarily go to AA have an 90 % success rate since Bill W and DR Bob started the program. It wasn’t until the 60′s and 70′s that rehabs got their hands into the money pit that the AA message became washed and weak, and the courts starting sending convicts to it.

AA is not really a religious program, the only thing is you believe in something greater then[sic] yourself. weather[sic] its the fellowship, the meetings, God etc. Because like I said before, If you’re in an AA meeting to begin with, you obviously have some problems, and haven’t been able to deal with them by yourself.

I’d be interested in hearing rebuttals, but obviously a majority of people here are too fat headed and ignorant, to change their minds. Which I could care less, because I understand, “Ignorance is Bliss” Have a miserable day. : )

Oh and by the way, If anyone wants to call me a big book thumper or such, I’m not necessarily in any program or belief, I just research things and experience them before i start spouting off ignorant spittle at people or about people.

I’d take on anyone in a conversation like wise about politics, current events, or religion.”

Now, I've highlighted some comments from diablo because his contributions are what made this comment section blow up in the first place;

This just in!!!
1. JD says

“Of course, if she had been, she could have made her way to this blog, where our resident AA commenters can tell her how resentful she is, and how she could worry about keeping her side of the street clean.”

MA, after the bad AAs say that, then what do they say after they say that? And may we please hear the whole conversation that’s playing in your mind?

Is the volume loud or soft, when the AAs say these things to the people like the woman you mentioned who are not on this forum, because of the things that, as you say, didn’t happen to them? I’m curious too if the voices you hear in these non existent conversations are soft or gruff?

Do they ever tell you to ‘do things’?

1. JD says

Our group was at a suburban park practicing volleyball for the summer picnic competition, and one of the kids ran up to his mother and said a fellow had shown him something dirty on a camera and tried to pull him into the bushes.

We looked around the park until the kid identified the man, and a sponsee, one of our bigger guys stopped him and then followed him as he removed the phone memory card and went to the john. The cops were there when he came out and knew him by name from other complaints, and because he’d once been a popular TV and radio personality.

My sponsee testified for some hours at the trial and the guy was put away for 78 years. Because we won’t tolerate that. It irks me that people here suggest that we might. Not so.

Without the involvement of my group this guy would have gone on hurting kids, and I’m glad we were there to stop that.


January 14, 2011, 2:06 p

Uh-oh! Someone from A.A. defending his group? Wow! The gall of that guy.

1. diablo says

SoberPJ says:

Staunch believers in AA seem so bossy. It seems that when they post here, all they can do is tell others what to do and attempt to attack or belittle others that aren’t in line with their erroneous beliefs. This blog would make a fascinating psychological study.

diablo wrote:

Golly Gee, have you seen the remarks from all your buddies. You sound delusional, I would have said “in denial” but since we were pretending to do a psychological study, I mind as well be as accurate as I can be.

I understand the venomous reaction to AA, many people who post here have had some very abusive negative experiences with AA. Examples: being court ordered there because they had a DUI, going to a 12 step treatment program, going to AA by yourself and feeling violated after a few minutes of being there. If you have never had any experience with AA other then what you have read, well I feel sorry for you. You are definitely a candidate for a cult. Please go and join Tom Cruise and John Travolta.

Folks this site (chat) were having right now (at least the one your having with yourselves) could be considered thought reform, brainwashing and possibly a bit cultist. Read what you say. Tsk! Tsk!

AA, can appear and sound like a cult, brainwashing, forced thought control, among some of the popular adjectives attached to AA protocol.

There is one problem though (at least with the “cult” theory) , you can get up and walk out of any meeting you want. You can accept the steps or not ect…. AA is to open to be a cult. Read the definition of a cult, AA does not fit.

Nice yakking with ya folks. Hope to continue.
Oh, you have no idea what kind of zoo you just stumbled into.  Enjoy the ride diablo.

1. diablo says

I don’t regret being a part of AA as I don’t regret being a part of my ex-wife’s life or the last job I had ect…..My god man. Most of us who entered AA were banged up bad probably. We needed a solid footing to re-establish ourselves an those darn AA’ers helped. So as we leave we kick them in the balls on the way out. Like walking up to my ex-father in law and kicking him. No way I learned a lot from both experiences.

Yes I no longer associate with AA as many here, I have moved on. AA opened my eyes (perspective) to so much I can not even begin to articulate everything. Just so much to be grateful for.

Yes!!!!There are whack-jobs there (as in any exclusive society) there are folks who take the Big Book and the steps within and bastardize them as their own. Totally take them out of context. AA does (the people) try to make you dependent on them or you will die. This is a philosophy I had a major problem with. To many treatment centers got a hold of AA and twisted the steps to their advantage.

There is a letter that was written concerning a speech Bill Wilson gave in 1970 at a conference (I believe in Pittsburgh) that he expressed his fears of Treatment Centers doing this very thing, He also shared again that he never believe in the disease/allergy concept. It begs you to read this speech. He was afraid of this very thing Treatment Centers would do to keep people coming back. Hey!!! They need to make money.

1. diablo says


Martha, thanks. I believe I was one of the first 1,000,000 to read the Orange papers. I believe this was early 2000 or late 90′s. We need to remember that the person (who left his name anonymous; coward) is expressing his experience and opinions, trying valiantly to gather scientific studies, surveys ect…yet failed. There is nothing he has produced that would hold scrutiny under a “Peer Review” or any anything similar.

There used to be a site dedicated to chatting about this very topic. It closed during the middle part of this decade.

January 15, 2011, 3:48 pm

1. diablo says


FEAR……FEAR. You are introducing a behavior they are not familiar with (in so far as consciously) everyone else is, as you are pointing out but they are not.

In one of my (3) posts (lol) I explained AA (the people) trying to create a atmosphere of dependence.

1. diablo says


Terrance was a coward at first then later came out with his name.

January 15, 2011, 4:45 pm

1. diablo says


Attacking Terrance nope, I am not doing this. Terrance when he first wrote his piece left his name out. This is all I stated and we all felt he was a coward and “walaa” his name appeared later.

Who said I was defending AA????

WoW,, what kool-aid are you drinking.

You folks are all set up with your speeches, mantra’s, links and what not. My god did I waltz into the AA anti- world, from the “twilight zone”.

Guys I have not talked about the O papers in years. Millions are still going to AA worldwide and will continue.

Bob and Bill started a group with a coffee pot and a Bible for Alcoholics. If y’all want to have a problem with that have at it.

Yeah, with all the others problems in your lives at one time or another, will put AA right up there as a big one. You can’t be serious. Most of you are not talking about AA anyway, your talking about your Treatment Center version of AA.

January 15, 2011, 5:15 pm

1. diablo says

I am having a serious issue with authenticity of these articles. Bill flatly stated many times that he did not agree with the concept that Alcoholism was a disease or allergy. He even went on to say that he felt people were putting Alcoholism along side other diseases such as cancer. Which is incorrect, he was quoted as saying. Alcoholism can be arrested in most cases but cancer could not in the 60′s and earlier.

Why would he then contradict himself, (or I suppose none of you have heard of what I am talking about). I can not seem to find the link right now (as I said earlier) but I will it is archived. I will post within the next day I’m sure.

The disease theory really took hold in the treatment industry. What better way then to keep them coming back, tell ‘em they have a life long disease.

I will say this Bill did promote this life or death theatrics baloney. I think he did this because of his experiences and others back in the 30′s.

I have always found it to be amazing when I read gifted intelligent people such as yourselves arguing and debating the ideas, concepts and conclusions of a man far older then you that had experiences with alcohol that were over as far back as 1934.

He died in 1971.

My point is not that you can not argue with Bill or Bob, it is more why???? He was dead when most of you were very young (including myself). I never felt in my whole time in AA that Bill or Bob was influencing my recovery. It seems that you folks have gave him more power then really is necessary.

He was not coming to us as a Scientist, Doctor of Medicine or Psychology, a Professor or anything other then a garden variety drunk. Even Bob who was a Doctor never felt the need to exploit this advantage. They had a idea for helping fellow drunks that others appreciated and it bloomed from there. Bill wrote endlessly about alcoholism almost to a point of obsessiveness. His life had become and revolved around AA. I have never taken Bill, Bob or AA literally, in the sense that I gave up myself nor did I feel a overwhelming weight pushing on me to do this.

I read all this rhetoric here and i wonder what the heck happened to you folks. Did you not get enough love growing up, so life is just pissing you off and hey BtW AA sucks too. Yeah!!! lets kick the crap out of AA. We have our AA anti-book the Orange Papers.

I applaud the AA book and the Orange Papers. Great!!!!!

AA has changed and AA is still the same depends upon your perspective. I don’t think AA has changed at all. I received what I did and realized that there was nothing more to get. So just like I left home at 19 years of age, I left AA. Many had done the exact same thing as I had before, during and after.

January 15, 2011, 10:49 pm

1. diablo says

J.R. Harris wrote:

Bill W is dead, he was a know womanizer, adulterer, and had no income except from a Snake Oil Cult called AA. Unfortunately many people are trying to follow in his foot steps and the 10 Billion dollar industry it has spawned. Unfortunately people such as yourself are caught up in this and being played as pawns to help fund the cult. I feel sorry for you and hope you see the light some day. It is not to late to save yourself.

Diablo wrote:

J.R. ever cheated on a girl while involved, ever not had income except from royalties (Benjamin Franklin did)

Oh boohoo, Billy boy was not your model citizen. Grow up!!!!!!!

Who freakin cares, this is about my life (our lives) not Bills. Did I get something out of the Big Book Yes!!!, did I act like a automaton, No!!!! .

All this crap your buddies and you are spewing here is just crazy. Oh, “chicken little” AA is coming.

AA, is just fine…big, small, here or there. AA will keep doing what it has been doing for 76 years. Providing coffee, a donut, conversation and a reason maybe not to drink for a day.

That’s it…..the essence.

Sorry I could not get into your “group think” here. I forget my percussion’s. lol

Maybe “you folks” should calm down on the, “confrontational attacking group therapy model” your ascribing to here. Jeesh!!!!!

January 16, 2011, 10:42 am

Oooooooooohhh! What a Hitler Devil this diablo character is! He said, “Maybe you folks should…! What a dictator! Woo.

1. diablo says

Hulahoop wrote:

I totally agree. It’s a religious organization plain and simple. If people don’t see that then it is because they don’t want to see it. I don’t frequent other message boards of known cults or religions because people know what they buying in to when they walk in. Most of them have been exposed as cults and do not enjoy the media presenting them in a different light like AA does. AA should have to come clean and call itself a religion because it is the truth even if they deny it. Shit, at least when someone buys booze or cigarettes there is a warning label on them.

diablo wrote:

Please give me your definition of a religious organization, please. I had to throw out my Websters Dictionary and Religious Encyclopedia out because I felt they weren’t doing their job.

January 16, 2011, 10:47 am

He’s having the guts to try to reason with these folks and delve into the pit with them. He’s not had enough pig-mud flung on him quite yet…

1. diablo says

Hey tintop and Primrose my sentiments exactly. Why bother to educate the people who refuse to change. How ever I believe you ancient baby boomers will prevail eventually and come out of your whoa is me, attitude.

AA is not making your life as unpleasant as you make it out here. All these horrific experiences that everyone just spouts off around here, is there a longitudinal study, a peer review any citations at all to back up all these atrocities.

Naaaa, I didn’t think so. Please don’t quote; Stanton Peele and George Vaillants, been there done that.

January 16, 2011, 2:27 pm

Some more diablo coming up… what’s missing is the multiple pissing and moaning posts in between his…

1. diablo says

Maybe the last 5 posters can do me a favor. READ MY POSTS CORRECTLY!!!!!!

I have not been to a meeting in 5 years. This was after going for 23 years. Yes so almost 28 years have past.

So I have a fairly rational account of AA and the people that attend AA. Most of you simply can not understand the difference.

So I want my little chitin’s to stop with your “group think” and allow for other thoughts to come in. OK…..

Thank You

January 16, 2011, 9:07 pm

Don’t believe me? Here’s an example of that…

1. tintop says

diablo get a life and stop whining

January 17, 2011, 5:16 am

Now, multiply that by 116 and you’ll get the thread comment total.

… and some more…

1. Mona Lisa says

If I may be so bold, the proper way to ignore diablo and others like him is not to respond in the first place.

Over and out.

January 17, 2011, 5:23 am

Mona Whinna, the hours you would have to spend ignoring not-like-minded-whinny-bitches like yourself would send you into a time warp long before man had ever crushed grapes. Oh… maybe you’re on to something. As you were.

1. Tony J says

JR :

” I came home from work one day to find the locks changed and all of my clothes in boxes, just like she had told me about someone else who did in that the rooms. We were not mad at each other , she had just decided with the help of AA that I am not like her and never will understand her. ”

Gee, can’t see why any sane woman would leave a charmer like you.

Did you accuse her of engaging in kiddie porn and use the manipulation and shame monering you try to use on me here ?

Good for her. I’m sure she’s better off without you.

I chalk that up as another victory for AA.

January 17, 2011, 6:12 am

Uh-oh… Stinkin’ Thinkin’ is in some shit now!

1. Gunthar2000 says

Enough already.

January 17, 2011, 6:24 am

2. tintop says

Keep coming back tony. You are dong an outstanding job of demonstrating the greatness of AA; you are outstanding in your field!!

We will love you until you can love yourself.

Have a wonderful day!!

January 17, 2011, 6:51 am

3. Ben Franklin says

Gunthar I second that.

January 17, 2011, 8:11 am

Say hello to the peanut gallery.

1. Tony J says

Gunthar2000 says Enough already.

You’re right. It should be ‘shame-mongering’. It’s hard to type in this little box somtimes.

January 17, 2011, 8:32 am

So... I wonder how much longer the Tony J experiment will hold up.  Hat's off to ya TJ.  You know where the showers are when you're done over there.  We'll leave the hot water runnin'.

Look at you dorky fucks! Mostly one non-anti/XAer comes in to comment, then Tony J makes a cameo… and you now have 116 comments badgering the witnesses! Wow! You folks are so useful and attractive! Comic relief is more like it.


This just in!!!!!!!!

Mike says
Weird, jd has virtually stopped posting, while tj’s posts have increased. Almost seems to be a linear relationship between the two.

January 17, 2011, 10:36 am
diablo says
Well Tony has a point doesn’t he. JR., for everything I have read about you is drowning in narcissism. Your wife’s so-called problems pale in comparison to your obsessive chastising of her and her choices. Women here, honestly, you would want to live with this.

Whether you people here like it or not, Americans get to make their own choices.

AA, is a choice folks make, regardless of what you may think. All this, Oh I have to save the world from AA, they are killing people bla, bla, bla. Please, save it for your Treatment Center Web Site Forums.

You freak’in people are sick, I know most of the people who share on this site are from AA, it is obvious. You sound exactly like the crusty, crappy-heads that hang around AA for 50 years. You really do. There is no difference, you still have compulsive attacking behaviors. Your right and be damned with everyone else, it is “all or nothing” with you folks. All you have done is switched your hat, what is up in your head is still skewed.

I can only hope in my time here that the “peanut gallery” I have been reading for the past couple of days changes.

January 17, 2011, 10:37 am

friendthegirl says
Mike, There’s really no mistaking the two. JD has his limits.

January 17, 2011, 10:42 am

Gunthar2000 says
Fuck off diablo. You are a real sick fuck… The same kind of shit that goes on in AA every day… get a little bit of personal info about someone, and then try to use it against them.

If you don’t like what people on this blog have to say, you can find a whole bunch of wacky AA sites all over the web.

Just fuckin’ get lost now.

January 17, 2011, 10:44 am
Fuck off diablo?  Really Cunthair2000?  That's really all you got?

I thought your blog was Rated-G...  What the Fuck happened over there?  Diablo, apologize.  You two need to kiss and make up.

And Tony J, you might want to make an amend to JR about his relationship comments.  Poor guy isn't the only one in a failed relationship.  You know as well as I that he probably didn't get dumped by his ex.  He, like me, probably drove her away with a Mack Truck because they grew apart.

So tell us, Stinkin' Thinkin' ... about the word serenity?  What does this word serene mean?  Can you show us what we're missing? Ha ha!  Pass the popcorn.


diablo says
Hey, guess what???? If you don’t want to feel isolated switch your group, stand up for yourself, read the Big Book, stop being dependent (obsessively) on people, move, find friends that endorse “you” ect……

Ya know I have been to meetings/groups I thought were seriously deranged, I left and never went back, i found another meeting/group. The one I liked that favored my type of personality.

January 17, 2011, 10:45 am

diablo says
If you want to understand your ego and its function, i would not suggest you go to AA.

As far as AA tearing down your, “Ego”. There can be a valid point made I presume. Though if you were to read the book AA , I don’t believe there is any aggressive tearing going on concerning the ego. Now, if you want to gather all your information about AA through the social activities of AA, Yes I could see how, “a tearing sensation” would be felt.

January 17, 2011, 10:51 am
Gunthar2000 says
Hey, guess what???? I just decided to leave AA entirely and be done with all of the crazy fuckin’ people period.

Fuck your book!

Fuck your religious cult!

And fuck you!
On second thought diablo... as you were.  I wouldn't apologize to a guy who keeps sticking his finger in your face.
Gunthar2000 says
Why would anyone bother to read anything diablo has to say?
This person is just a troll who needs attention. I’ll be damned if I’m going to give it to him.
The only thing trolls get from me is a big fat FUCK YOU!
January 17, 2011, 11:35 am
Keep ignoring him Gunthar2000, Gunthar2009, Todd. whatever your name is.  You're doing fine ignoring him.

Diablo made mention of the A.A. book not delving into the breaking down of the ego.  Then Martha rightly points out the fallacy of this as she quotes the 12 x 12.

In my group, we don't use the 144.  It's conclusive and bullshit that Bill Wilson wrote when  he was off his rocker.  It's a static snapshot of his current experience...not always good and not always bad...

The point is, put the 144 down and get your own experience in the book Alcoholics Anonymous... or don't.

says Go fuck yourself diablow.

January 17, 2011, 11:12 am

says I think all trolls should be banned immediately.

January 17, 2011, 11:17 am
diablo says
Well Gunthar, On most sites you would have been already banned for your foul-mouth. I am not a troll, I just don’t happen to agree with you.

As far as JR is concerned, I’m sure he is a big boy and he can take it. He dishes it out enough.

Thanks once again for showing me the better side of, “Stinkin’ Thinkin’ ” (pun intended)

January 17, 2011, 11:37 am
Stay down, Gunthar... stay down!

Saturday, January 15, 2011

Uncomfortable sharing at A.A. meetings?

I'm going to go ahead and "borrow" a topic from a recovery forum that deserves further discussion here.

Someone with about 8 months sober is having a hard time sharing in meetings now and that person wonders if it's pride or fear... assuming there's something wrong with them in this deal.  I personally would appeal to someone in this situation to not assume it's all you as the cause of this situation.

I'll first discuss how my group works.  We don't rely on the new person or the intermediate in the steps to carry the meeting anyway.  Any A.A. group should have some folks in the group who have done at least a set of steps or... at very least... a group of people who are dedicated to following the instructions out of the Alcoholics Anonymous book to complete all 12 of those steps.

Someone who is 8 months in should easily have gone through all 12 steps and should have some bit of experience in them to fall back on in their share.  Their own current or fairly recent experience on any given step may not be the earth-shaking pitch in the course of that meeting... nor does it have to be.  Maybe the topic is on something ... other than... a step or a tradition or concept.  It may be on gratitude or some... stuff like that.  In that case... this is what I do; I try my best to relate that off-the-wall topic to something related to a step or a tradition... in it's long form.

Now, let's say this person with over 3 months of sobriety hasn't done anything like all 12 steps.  They may be "still working on step 1".  In this case, I would blame the sponsor or the group.  If it's the group, that individual can heed my advice now and leave that group/meeting.  Run from it.  You don't want to be doomed to a life of MOTR, do you?  You'd be better served going out and getting some Sudoku puzzles and practicing that and using logic to get and stay sober or to get your drinking moderated.  Some of us "need" the A.A. program of action via the 12 steps to get to a place where we can get and stay sober for 8 months and beyond.  If you can get and stay sober in A.A. just by hanging around and listening and sharing... hats off to ya.  I need something more.  I need a sufficient substitute to booze.  A.A. is the vehicle that brings me to that.  If you are like me, you need to find a group where steps are done and experiences in them are discussed as well.

So, back to my group.  We have a chair picker who is a recovered alcoholic.  They have the very important job of finding another recovered alcoholic from the group to chair the next week's meeting.  That person brings a good A.A. topic with them and decides whom to call on and in what order.  It's their job to keep the meeting up and strong.  If someone brings the meeting down, that's ok;  a good chair person can bring it back on course with whom they select to share next.  In my group, we do the steps yearly.  We are fairly synchronized in what order we do the steps.  When someone selects a topic from where they are at, the others  in the group are pretty much experiencing the same sort of thing..  If someone is new to the group or is not on that particular step, we ask them to share from where they are at.  They may be new to sobriety and new to the A.A. process and that's fine.  We might point them in the direction of looking at where they are with Step 1.  Are they alcoholic or not?  Do they really know what that means?  Do they want to do something about it if they are?  Are they willing to leave and find out where else they fit if they are not?

But just sitting back and telling the new person or quiet person to sit back in listen?  No.  It don't go like that.  If you get called on the share, that's what you do.  There's no passing in our group.  If you want to sit back and listen, go to a speaker meeting.  Passing when you're called on to share brings the whole group down.  If you have to go off topic to share where you're at, what's the harm in that?  We don't need something from you.  We need you to locate yourself and tell us where you're at.  That might be helpful to us too.  You may not have a flipping clue about the topic and that's ok too.  You need  not know everything and sound pretty.  What you could do is ask a question; "So, how do you share from the heart and get out of your head?  I don't understand this.  Maybe I DO analyze too much.  How do I get out of my own head".  That kind of thing.

Thursday, January 13, 2011

Should I do 90 meetings in 90 days?

Fuck no!  That would be retarded.  Tell the person who told you to do that to practice what they preach.

Just chaired my second meeting this week!  Passed my CDL physical!  The last two lines on the previous medical ailments list were classic; are you a heavy drinker?  are you reliant on addictive drugs?

NO and NO!  When the gal took my sample for the blood test, I was having to sign this and sign that and see that serial numbers matched... and was told to NOT flush the toilet of course.  Being somewhat uncomfortable, I looked over at her and told her... I've been sober for about 7 years and four days now.  She told me that was awesome and asked me if I was Irish.

90 meetings in 90 days is for losers and those who even suggest it are ass-reamers.

I'm feeling spiritual tonight and tomorrow is Friday!  Guess what I'm gonna do tomorrow?  Go to work, come home, and get frisky with my wife!  Happy fucking birthday to me!  If you're gonna do A.A., then do A. fucking A.

Fuckin' A!

Current topic in an Alcohol Recovery Forum about A.A. Closed Meetings

A newbie to the A.A. 12 Step forum:
But that isn't the case for everyone attending an AA meeting. I just started going to AA and the fact that I am a binge drinker who doesn't drink everyday is what kept me away from AA for so long. I thought you had to drink every day to be an alcoholic. So, for a newcomer, it is important to know that alcoholism takes all kinds of forms. Once you know more about it, only then does it become a moot point.
I didn't drink booze everyday.  I drank continuously from time to time during my drinking years, perhaps even successfully at times.

But that would not describe the truth of my drinking history from start to finish.  In fact, I had very long periods of not drinking mixed in to my history, because there were times that I almost killed myself due to dangerous bouts with booze and it did scare me.  I managed to show signs of control/abstinence from time to time.

Conversely.  Being a "continuous hard drinker" does NOT make one an alcoholic.  You can be a continuous hard drinker... thus a daily drinker, and not be an alcoholic.

Anyone who says they drank 24/7 is a fucking liar.  But go ahead and embellish your story if that's how you have to get down.  We do vary much in our drinking patterns/history.

In my A.A. group, we talk about booze... about how we drank, how much we drank, and what happened... when the topic calls for it.  We also do this when we're talking to a new man who is a potential prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous.  What the fuck else would we talk about than that?  The stock market?  The weather?  Our feelings?

Saturday, January 8, 2011

Here's to the underdog

... and here's to the BigDawg!


How about them SeaChickens?  They may get that winning record yet!

Thursday, January 6, 2011

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged.....

I know this picture will get Mike excited but it's apropos.

So now the anti-AA squawkers are mandated by their cult leaders to ignore us. They will comply like the good little robots they are. No cult likes it's members to think for themselves. Good enough. o

But, as usual, they can't just leave. They have to throw shit at you first. Now, it's a charachter defect of mine that....when you throw shit at me, I'm gonna pick it up and throw it back at you.

Also, the anti-AA nut balls need to be exposed. For whatever it's worth, for as small an audience who has interest, just to keep the record somewhat straight.

So enjoy the following :

"SoberPJ says Wow, they are really dragging this thing through the raunchy dirt. It doesn’t get too much more vulgar than that. I hope that fair minded people can see what is happening here.

Something is terribly wrong with those people. Parents reading this, think about if you would want your child being involved with people that get that raunchy simply when their beliefs are questioned. How much lower will they go and what will it take to send them there? It’s really sicko stuff."

Wow, (not so)SoberPJ is playing the victim card.

Getting this raunchy when others have been raunchy towards us is not the same as getting this raunchy simply because our beliefs are questioned. You don't have to ability to have a debate without insulting us, so you get what you get. Blame yourself.

As far as raunch, have you bothered to look at your little girl friends over at ST and see what they are doing? Do you want 'fair minded people' to judge you as you would have them judge me ?

Your cult masters over at ST are staging the internet equivelant of the Nancy Grace show.

You have AnnaZed posting things like this :

"Of course the sponsors all talk shit out of school about what their sponsees tell them in their fourth step (of course they do!) so when I matriculated (as it were) to long sober sponsor type I was part of the inner coven of crypt key keeping bitches that know all of the secrets. Now, the bat-shit crazy woman that was sponsoring her could have made this up (though somehow I doubt it), but she felt compelled to tell us all that her sponsee had done time back in her early 20s for the sexual abuse of her male child who then went on to take his own life when he was a young man. This woman used to garner all sorts of hugs and sympathy when she shared about her grief over her son’s suicide, which she did all of the time. Somehow I felt rather less sympathetic when I was told that she had orally copulated him when he was a small child. I shudder even now when I think about it, yet I let this person hug me and I interacted with her by choice for (literally) years!"

So Anna heard a story about a woman second hand and this is a 'fair' judgement ?

Let me tell you Anna, I've NEVER had anyone tell me what was one someone elses 4th step. Not even anonymously. And the sober men I hang with wouldn't sit and have a coffee clutch and discuss it like you and your ignorant friends did.

Anna, everyone is not a low minded gossip like you are. The ones who are end up over at ST and that's why you fit in.

You let her hug you and interacted with her at the time because for a moment in your life you had some humility. You probably had a sense of your own moral failings too.

If that story is true it's a tragedy all around. What you're saying is that mentally ill people don't deserve your sympathy. I feel sorry for a mother who would hurt her son so much that he'd kill himself. Spiritually that's fairly low on the scale. I might not hang out with her but I would respect her in meetings, especially if she's been around for 20 years. Let's have a little perspective here.

AA is not an arm of law enforcement. AA is the place people go and hopefully try and get well. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they abuse the system because that's the nature of a system. It can always be used by people in a negative way. Milking the system in this case would include predators using AA to make contact with people.

What's the solution ?

Use common sense and keep your guard up. I hear that message quite often.

 "SoberPJ says Right, we can live without them, but they have little to talk about without us. As their frustration grows so does the bizarreness of the attacks. How can anyone think being that vulgar is a rational response to ANY argument? We can make the jokes about serenity and all, but something is truly wrong with the person that responds that way. It is sociopathic and he is getting worse over time. It follows a pattern of mental illness – sometimes on the verge of being rational, then goes over the edge and turns angry, bitter and in this case vulgar. That’s mental illness folks."

Wow, SoberPJ is a mental health professional and has rendered a diagnosis.

Hey ST crew, isn't one of your complaints about AA that they have people giving out mental help advice with no qualifications ?

Now SoberPJ, why is it okay if you guys crack on us but when we give it back to you we're 'sociopathic' ? Isn't this just another example of how you guys at ST want to live in a world that allows you to act any way you please but forces the rest of society to act the way you would have them ? In other words, we should 'do as you say and not as you do', in other words, you're a hypocrite ?

How, exactly is being immature and hypocritical going to make the recovery industry a better place ?

friendthegirl says "One other thing that might help you keep some perspective when you venture out of the boat is that there are only about 3 or 4 of these weird ST obsessed whackjobs, and they talk only to each other — ever. Even their own peeps have banished them. There’s really no point in getting defensive or justifying or explaining anything to them. Really. There is no chance on earth that anyone is going to come here, read JD’s comments and decide that he has a point."

Our own peeps have banished us ?
Really ?

I think you are assuming that since the only friends you have are 'online friends', that it's also true for us. I have real peeps. I haven't been banished by my peeps in quite a while.

No, it's the anti-AA cult leaders have banished us. There's a difference. You guys don't count.

And good luck trying to act mature now.
Your 'peeps' are still cutting and pasting and bringing the snippets over to your blog for the monkeys to masturbate to.

I'd love to sit with a judge and go through your site.
I'd like to see if they're as stupid as you think. I have an idea that judges know that there are criminals in programs they mandate criminals to attend.....I could be wrong though.
Maybe it's you guys at ST who have the world figured out and it's the judges, doctors and mental health people who don't have a clue.

Oh and the bandwagon logical fallacy is not consistent with science based treatement.


"The bandwagon fallacy is committed by arguments that appeal to the growing popularity of an idea as a reason for accepting it as true. They take the mere fact that an idea suddenly attracting adherents as a reason for us to join in with the trend and become adherents of the idea ourselves."

So, if we be 3-4 talking to ourselves and if you be millions, it means nothing at all as far as the truth of your arguments go.

Amoral people need a crowd of people to support them. Moral people do not.
To a moral person, the simple truth will do.

Don't get into any relationships for a year. Good advice. Why ? Because in a year you'll have a much better idea of who's who in the meetings.

Oh....but that's right, that's a cult control mechanism, isn't it ???

If you think you're going to control who gets to attend AA and who doesn't, you're better off just staying with your white middle class college educated friends over at ST.
Of course you don't know them very well either, do you ...........

Tony J's new blog;


*Some photos and vid added by McGowdog


What does unmanageable mean to you?

For me, I look at my life right now without God. Just me. Can I manage? Or do I need Power?
If I go to God for Power, am I ducking responsibility?

If so, how so?

Tuesday, January 4, 2011

So Much For Resolutions

Mike thinking about AA.

Looks like I picked a bad year to quit fighting Anti-AA.

From ST :

Mike says I think JD is Tony J, writing style is the same. I have years of experience reading that troll’s posts.

Mona Lisa says I agree with Mike; JD’s writing is suspiciously similar to Tony J’s.

DeConstructor says JD, Tony J, and McGowDog, the trifecta of the orgy of incompetence.

Ben Franklin says Jeez JD you sound like Tony J. Maybe your real name is Tony JD. Slick,real slick. He never really has much to say either and is a seething cauldron of serenity. Quick with the insult and not much else. You got nothing also.

Even Worse Than I Thought......

Well, I made a New Year's Resolution to put the anti-AA fighting behind me.
As all resolutions are, this one is being tested.

I meant to post a reflection on my anti-AA stance regarding my program. That seems a normal enough use of my time.

But now, before I do, it seems I need to address a little drama over at ST.

It seems they are accusing JD of being me. (and vice versa....)

Now, it's obvious that the anti-AA's aren't the best and the brightest that society has to offer.
It's equally obvious that they are pretentious and arrogant in an attempt to avoid looking at themselves for what they truely are. Pretending to be above the fray while rolling around in the mud is the oldest trick in the book for avoiding responsibility for one's own actions. A close second is scapegoating an organization and blaming your faults on it. (sound familiar ?)

But when I noticed Ben Franklin (college boy know-it-all) claim that JD was me and Mike(goody two shoes, Momma's boy and all around Ass-Worshiper) used his 'authority' of 'years of experience' much the same way he uses it to discredit AA I had to laugh.

I mean this crew is so clueless they don't even know which way is up.

Mona Lisa, of course is just stupid. Someone says something retarded and she instinctually agrees.

But what does all this hubbub prove ?

JD does not 'sound' like me in his posts. He just has the same general opinions of the anti-AA crew as I do. And that's not all that original. Most observers would.
But the fact that Ben Franklin's vagina drips and Mona Lisa's penis gets hard at the very thought of my name shows that the anti-AA community needs me just like the alcoholic needs a drink.

Without an 'AA' to contradict they couldn't exist. They need AA like any parasite needs it's host. And indeed that's what these people are. Parasites pure and simple. One minute leeching off society while drunk, the next minute leeching off society while slightly less drunk.

I've been banned from ST for a year and they're still fantasizing about me.

Really, it's all the more reason to give up the fight.

But in JD's defense I needed to set the record straight.

JD is not me. Sorry losers. Just like you're wrong about everything else in your life, you are wrong about this too.

Does anyone want to see more of Ass Worshiper Mike's splendid character ?

ST Article :

A 28-year-old Rapid City man who sexually assaulted a family friend younger than 16 will spend the next six months in prison and the next 15 years on probation.


Thorstenson gave Donley the maximum sentence allowed under the law but granted him a suspended execution of sentence.

Instead, she sentenced him to six months in prison and placed him on probation for the next 15 years.

During his probation, Donley can have no unsupervised contact with children younger than 18 and must abide by a 7 p.m. curfew.

Donley was also ordered to pay more than $3,000 in restitution and almost $1,000 in court costs. He must continue drug and alcohol counseling and attend Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous.

Mike :

"Mike says So now the guy can meet up with other sexually deviants in the halls and do some real damage. I can just picture him now leering at the young mother with the baby carriage in the next row. How utterly contemptible."
Hey jerk off, Donley can have "NO UNSUPERVISED CONTACT WITH CHILDREN YOUNGER THAN 18" as part of his probation. Do you understand that jerk off ?

Do you think you can administer justice better than judge Thorstenson ?

And are you worried about the baby or the mother ? I'm sure you see this Donley as competition, after all it's been proven in a court of law that the man had sex. Something you can only dream about. How many women with babies have you leered at over your 20 year carreer in AA ?
After all, you claim it's a haven for sexual deviants and you know because you spent 20 years in 'the halls'......so that begs the question, why did you hang around with sexual deviants for 20 years unless you're one yourself ?

No Mike, you're just projecting your own faults onto everyone else in the room (or hall).

Whatever your sexual hang ups are you need to address them. You have just a little too much interest in the sex life of others for me to feel comfortable around you. Thou protesteth too much.

Sunday, January 2, 2011

15 Seconds on Sober Recovery by Stinkin' Thinkin'

friend the girl, author at Stinkin' Thinkin' lead me to an SR post about Dry Drunks.

I honestly don't like the term too much.  It's not really a description of the 12 Step program that I'm aware of... but there are many caveats in the book about warning folks of the dangers of "resting on our laurels" and such.

Some anti/XAers use the topic as a claim that proAA cultists use the term to describe folks who got sober with something besides the coveted A.A. program.  IDK.  It's probably a true claim in some/many cases.  They've opened my mind to the "There's no wrong way to get/stay sober" concept.

So ftg posted this...

By the time I get this post up, the thread will probably have been kiboshed by the keystone cops over at SoberRecovery (I have a screen cap). But some open-minded soul over at SR has linked to us in a discussion on the bogus concept of “dry drunk” (thank you, open-minded soul!) and I thought it would be interesting to see where the discussion goes now.
in response to this thread at SR, and assumed the post wouldn't last 15 seconds before the SR mods took it down.

Instead, an SR poster stood their ground and in my opinion, single-handedly bitch-slapped ftg, her claim, and the whole bunch over at Stinkin' Thinkin';

SR Poster:
Quoting anti/XAer and Stinkin' Thinkin' mark named nvrbeentospain:

   Originally Posted by nvrbeentospain

   I'm not personally a believer in the whole dry drunk concept. For some   unabashed flaming on the topic, you can check out what stinkin-thinkin has to say about it. Admittedly, they're a very anti-AA group.

   Dry Drunk – Stinkin' Thinkin'

   But since "dry drunk" is an AA concept, not being a "dry drunk" probably means doing AA and following their steps.

   Getting away from the "dry drunk" label, I think it's true that getting sober doesn't necessarily make you a better person or fix the problems in your life. Working on that is important for everybody.

 And that is a shame that some would spend their time in futile resentment trying to mislabel AA as some religious cult. I have seen some others ex-AA'ers with the same vendetta trying to sway others with their copy and paste twisting meanings. Most of them anti-God Christian hating atheists authors trying to mock AA'ers as brainwashed people when that is the farthest from the truth.

While I will agree, some of these slogans, such as dry drunk, can and probably are overused by AA'ers on occasion, when I speak of that term, my meaning is in life in general. I do not mean it from an AA meaning.

When someone takes the drink from a drunken horse thief, they are left with a horse thief. And unless some change is made in their life, that is usually the case. I have also clearly stated this change can take place either in AA or for some outside AA, as AA does not have tibs on recovery.

I don't understand why someone would devote such time to such a hateful site in mocking what is known to work for so many that they have to establish web sites with articles to twist other comments to make it fit what they think things to mean. If they do not believe in 12 step nor are involved it in, one should ask themself this one simple question. In what way are they even qualified to speak of it then to get others to believe their BS? And what is their 'true' intention of doing so.

Does anyone actually believe it is because they 'care' for anyone who is trying to get sober? I hardly think so.

SR 1
ST 0

Gunthar2000-2009, for the "Where Unicorns fart rainbows and skittles" blast - 1

Ah... but then he just dropped two points with this;

Gunthar2000 says They never give the horse thief any credit for getting sober.

What they’re really saying is…

“When an insecure human being puts down the drink, you still have an insecure human being, and we AAs have every intention of using that to undermine their self-confidence until they will submit to the authority of our religious cult. We AAs don’t care how much pain we cause these individuals The important thing is that they realize they are one of us, and can therefore never be forgiven for the things that they have done.”
Gunthar2000 -1.
We A.A.s really don't sit around in meetings talking about fucking horse thieves and shit.  We show those who want our solution how to do steps.  We enable those afflicted how to forgive thyself... which usually starts with forgiving others first.  This is exactly what happens the moment we finish our 3rd column of our 4th Step.  We look out immediately at those WE resented.  Why?  Because that's what spiritually sick people do... though they don't usually realize... well, you know the drill. 

It's all about Unicorn Fart Dust and Skittles.  As you were...


This just in!

anti/XAer from ST:

So now, A.A. is being blamed for turning people agnostic and atheist!  Wow!  The Power!

No, little anti/XAer bitches!  You're radical atheists because someone told/asked/suggested you to do something to get something and you threw a hissy-fit temper tantrum. 

When A.A. goes away, then the world will be a better place.  Translation, until A.A. falls, the world is fucked!

Happy New Year!
I love how nobody is qualified to criticize AA but everyone in AA is an expert on alcoholism and the program. Arguments such as this are a true aggravation because they are so obviously nonsensical yet every stepper uses them. I am constantly being told I misinform, distort facts, and just lie. Yet when steppers are confronted with the facts they simply keep repeating their arguments in light of the fact that they have been proven wrong. Religious indoctrination is so powerful is it any wonder that people become atheists or agnostics after experiencing this form of religious insanity?