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Saturday, January 22, 2011

The Great Tony J Experiment







FTG (in her mind)







Well, it looks as if The Tony J Experiment has come to an end.

I'm blocked from ST again. No explanation or warnings this time.

As best as I can tell I questioned why they hate Chris R so much and that's one of the arbitrary, unspoken and always moving lines that I'm not allowed to cross.

Which is fine. I was pretty happy not being allowed to post there anyway. I have better things to do with my time.

All in all I say the experiment was a success. One person willing to argue facts and not allow the anti-AA's to shame him can't be talked down.

The only possible response is to kill the opposistion. They did it to John the Baptist. Hell, they even did it to Jesus.

Although unlike Jesus, I would probably throw one of them off a subway platform if the heat of the moment.

The point is, telling the truth to a spiritually dead crowd doesn't get you a thank you note.

Still, I can't say I hate them. I can't even say I have a resentment. I did what I had to do and now they've made it easy for me to move on.


So I shared at my men's meeting last night. I told them the site and the deal and got some good feedback.

One guy said, there are 5 billion people in the world and there's a group for everything. Good point. There are maybe 100 people on st. About a dozen regulars.
12 vs 2,000,000.

One guy shared about prayer and meditation and working with another alcoholic. I realized when I'm dicking around on st I'm not praying, meditating or working with another.

A few people shared on self righteousness. Yeah. The very same thing that pisses me off about the st crew is what fuels my arguments.

So, in conclusion, they are what they are. They only mean anything to me when I chose to read what they write.

So hopefully this little 5th/10th step thingy I'm doing here will help me get this crusade behind me so I can move on to better things.

Will it ? Who knows? That's why I'm praying on it. I know myself too well to trust myself.

I do know I was right when I repeated the little quip on the mental health blog. When you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it.






Joe Cool Says :

"AA's been around time and will be around long after we're gone. I don't care about Orange, MFHA, Peele, or any other critic of the program. The tradition says that we don't engage in public controversy, so I don't get into pissing contests with morons who don't know wtf they're talking about. Especially morons who aren't alcoholics and have nfi about the experience of alcoholism and recovery. "


Yup. Joe has said all that really needs to be said.
Do I have a 'right' as an individual to express my opinions and argue with the anti-AA people ? Sure.
Is it a worthwhile effort ? No. Not when I'm honest with myself.
And Joe hits the nail on the head. They quite simply aren't alcoholics. If they were they'd understand what we're talking about. Even if they didn't agree with us, they'd understand.
And my business as far as AA is concerned is with alcoholics. Good post Joe.







48 comments:

  1. So Tony, any idea who these JD and diablo characters are?

    I think there is something good about the ST experiment. They keep us on our toes and help us better understand our MOTR foes and radical atheists that we will encounter going forward.

    As far as engaging them... that takes ego and energy which is tiresome and ultimately futile... unless one has too much time on their hands.

    ReplyDelete
  2. They hate Chris R for the same reason that MOTR AA's do. He doesn't bullshit and he doesn't care if he hurts your sensitive little feelings.

    I will be seeing Chris today. He is in town doing a workshop. I'll tell him how much he bothers those ST folks. I doubt that he loses much sleep about them though.

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  3. Jim...lol !!!

    For what it's worth, tell him Tony J from New Jersey thinks he has a hell of a message.

    I wouldn't know the guy if I tripped over him but I agree with his take on AA.

    Telling anyone with past trauma to get honest and get professional help is just plain old common sense. The fact that the ST crew has a problem with his message really says it all.

    They won't be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain. I, of course, don't have half a brain so I argue wit them.....I didn't get to AA by being the smartest guy in the room.

    Peace.

    ReplyDelete
  4. JD and Diablo ?

    Don't know about JD.
    I think he's already bored with ST.

    Diablo is an ex-AA guy who thinks there's alot of bullshit in the rooms and would like to work to change some things. He's not 'anti', just 'ex'.

    Of course he would be better off in the service structure than on ST, but I think he's a good egg.

    ReplyDelete
  5. 10.—No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues—particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.

    Bill Wilson was a smart guy! He knew that AA should keep it's mouth because there is no way for it to justify itself on a factual basis.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Hello Davejames. Welcome to the blog.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hello, McGowdog and Tony J!
    The commissars MA and FTG have just purged me as well, without the courage or courtesy to explain their rationale. Those two must have learned how to manage their website in Leningrad.
    I'm sure that you are both well aware that I'm not a supporter of AA, but just being that is not enough at Stinkin Thinkin; one must agree with the party line there at all times, or board the train to Siberia!
    I hope that you post this little message of mine on your site, so word gets back to the readers of Stinkin Thinkin that they had better be careful about everything they say.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Welcome here Ralph. I recall a brief period of posting on ST for a time... expressing my disgust in some of the A.A. fellowships' grosser handicaps.

    I recall a couple of posters there who were just telling like it is and getting shamed and put down for ... I guess rubbing one of the minions the wrong way.

    The majority of us folks here would probably agree that the fellowship at hand is a mess. But, I'd say also that we've found some degree of success with the program as It's written in that book.

    But here's where I butt heads with some A.A. folks... here included; I belong to a group who is out for experience in the deal. We may not follow every letter of the law. We may do and interpret things different from the mainstream. We are more interested in results than form.

    If you've found something better than A.A., hats off to you.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Hey Ralph.

    Feel free to leave a message on my Stinkin-thinkin-revealed blog if you like.

    It's not really and active blog, just a litte blurb I put out to express my feelings about ST.

    Not liking AA is cool.

    Making AA a bigger societal problem than alcoholc is lame though.

    MA and FTG are a couple of heros without a cause.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Bill Wilson also said that sometimes we should try to see if there is any grain of truth in what our critics say about us and if there is, to thank them. I've seen some truth in what Orange says. I've also tried to meet the folks at ST halfway and dialog with them, because some of what they say is true and it disgusts me as well. But I was just met with hate and vitrol, so I stopped posting anything there. I wasn't banned per se. Lately, from I see, it looks like they are digging deep for material, the same old tired stuff about predatory behavior in A.A...so I'm going to follow another of Bill's suggestions, which is to remain silent in the face of our critics.

    Bill also said something about realizing that some are just a trifle bit sicker than the rest of us and getting on with our respective inventories, which is what I'm going to do.

    Besides, the real danger to A.A. isn't from the Oranges, the MA's, and the like. It is from within. Maybe we should turn our efforts in that direction rather than doing battle with the forces from without.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Praise the Lord!
    Keep doing God's work for him!
    Is it God's will that you morons should act like such assholes?
    Is it God's will that you should ignore all of the basic principles and traditions that you supposedly live by?

    I guess you guys are right... I'm not an alcoholic... Not in the AA sense of the word anyway. According to AA, Alcoholics are selfish self-centered assholes who will never be able to stop acting that way... no matter how hard they try. I have no problem with you fruitcakes gathering in church basements and horsewhipping yourselves. The problem I have is that your demented organization has it's hooks in the addiction treatment industry and the courts. Keep your fuckin' wacko religious beliefs in the church where they belong.

    You had your chance to engage in dialogue at ST. The record stands for everyone to see. You've made an ass of yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Actually Gunthar, dialogging over at ST isn't possible. There is a difference between dialog and attack. I was nothing but civil over there at ST and was met with nothing but profanity & hate by the likes of yourself.

    Like I said, I was never banned from ST, at least not as far as I know. Some of the guys here were banned. It's obvious we are not welcome there. Maybe you should take the hint if you can't engage in civil and constructive discussion.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Gunthar is an attention whore. Here's 25 cents, g-2000. Take your scabs, your negativity, your shameful paranoia, and your bad breath back to Stinkin' Thinkin'.

    Meanwhile, we'll heed your advice and discourage the damage of "letting" the courts and the treatment centers from watering down our fine and exclusive fellowship.

    Your accusation that A.A. is a religion or a cult is your own and will not be recognized as such here.

    Now I'm done conversing with you. Surely you have something better to do yourself?

    ReplyDelete
  14. Oh no! Someone disagreed with your religious cult! This must be a traumatic experience for all of you. You'd better get on the phone and call your sponsor right away! As alcoholics, you are inherently flawed and unable to deal with these types of situations alone. Call Chris R. and ask for some guidance before it's too late! Break out your 12 & 12 and turn to page 60 - Step Five
    "The benefit of talking to another person is that we can get his direct comment and counsel on our situation, and there can be no doubt in our minds what that advice is."

    ...or maybe you should turn to BB p.417(449), Acceptance

    "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."

    ...no no no! That won't do! That's actually the crux of the program that you pretend to live by, but somehow you just can't seem to get it... In your mind you say, "That sounds like a good policy." but the reality is that your gut instinct always overrides your adopted AA values... You haven't changed a bit.

    You know why you haven't changed a bit? It's because you have been wasting your time coddling your insecurities and trying desperately to turn your emotions over to a higher power that isn't really there. You guys would do better to learn some cognitive skills that can help you to learn to deal with your feelings as adults do.

    I'm so glad I escaped the AA mind trap. It was simply a horrible way to live.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Seems the good ol boys at ST are still trying to dictate the behavior of others.In keeping Lock Step with the Stalinist Society over at ST, Gunther took it upon himself to say something stupid. As usual!

    "According to AA, Alcoholics are selfish self-centered assholes who will never be able to stop acting that way... no matter how hard they try".


    Care to rethink that Gunther?
    WTF do you think the AA is all about. It's about a reconstruction of the person we once were.

    Then you really out did yourself with this gem

    "Is it God's will that you morons should act like such assholes"?

    No! Assholes are Assholes and God isn't a bully. God doesn't dictate how anyone lives their lives but offers an alternative.

    But!!! Speaking of Self Centered Assholes, Why not go back to your leaders and ask them exactly why they believe that what goes on in AA is any of their business. Because it's not. It just takes a select group of pompous arrogant windbags to come to that conclusion.
    Besides, virtually everything I've read over there is an extreme exasperation of the truth.
    Talk about a "Mustard Seed"!

    ReplyDelete
  16. I don't speak for the folks at ST. They can think for themselves.

    According to your AA bible, I'm exactly the way I'm supposed to be. If you are disturbed by anything I have to say it is because there is something wrong with you.

    You guys don't really live by that... do you?

    ReplyDelete
  17. No, some of us don't. I have experience in the 164. Not the 12 x 12, and not the MOTR.

    I don't have a sponsor. I'm sponsor-free.

    I'm not powerless. I have Power.

    Say what you will of A.A. How I interacting with A.A. and God, your Daddy, is all of my business and none of yours.

    If you'd like to make it your business... get out a notepad, put my name in column one, put my offense in column two... and solve your problem in column three... because I/ A.A. don't have one.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I have to go speak at an AA meeting and then have to meet with a sponsee. Sorry I don't have the time to join in on this "discussion". Hey Dowg, why does the word "maladaptive" always come to mind when I read such drivel?

    ReplyDelete
  19. I think by St's definition Gunthat must be a troll.

    Trolls don't bother me anymore than stepping in dog shit. At worst, a minor annoyance. Certainly not worth wasting time and energy over.

    Like joe, I've got better things to do.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Jesus Christ!
    Three posts and I've busted off half of your flock.

    Fuckin' pussies can dish it out, but you can't take it?

    ReplyDelete
  21. It's really quite simple... In the past 20 years or so people have begun to speak out about something that they think actually hurts other people. That thing that we speak out against is basically a religion that has imposed itself into the lives of a lot of people, and not only is that not fair, but the fact that there is no evidence that AA even works makes it even worse.

    Addiction treatment is a fairly new science when you compare it to other medical advances that have been made over the past 100 years or so. back in the 30s there wasn't much consensus about what to do with alcoholics. This offered the perfect opportunity for Bill W. and his fellow con-artist drunken doctor friend to set up their wares and peddle them to all of the hopeless alcoholics who were out there searching for an answer.

    These two bums were in the right place at the right time. America was a largely Christian nation... Religious revival was a part of the American tradition... and there was this alcoholic demographic of the population just sitting there, waiting to be exploited.

    Okay, so now it's been 70 years or so, and it's pretty well been proven that the 12-step program laid out by these two quacks doesn't work any better than doing nothing at all about the problem. Unfortunately these two dip-shits were good at a couple of things... They were excellent con-artists who were well versed in guilt, manipulation, and mind control tactics. Secondly, they were pretty good at exploiting the open niche in the addiction care market to the point that, through political lobbying and manipulation of the medical field they have successfully monopolized an entire branch of medicine.

    The problem, as people like myself see it, is that people are still out there dying from alcoholism, and AA has rigged the system in favor of religious indoctrination at the expense of these poor souls.

    This is something I believe is worth fighting for. If real treatment is made available to people who seek help more lives will be saved, but so long as AA's big lie stands in the way the addiction treatment industry will remain stagnated.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Another comment of stellar stupidity.

    "Okay, so now it's been 70 years or so, and it's pretty well been proven that the 12-step program laid out by these two quacks doesn't work any better than doing nothing at all about the problem".

    That in itself is saying that "Nothing" is better than "Something". Or at least equal. So is staying home on Sunday morning produce the same results as going to Church? Externally it does but the real results can only be measured by how we feel within. There aint a group of social misfits anywhere in cyber space that can tell us otherwise. You included.

    One of the questions I've asked of the Stinkin Group is "Why the overwhelming obsession with sticking your nose in the business of others"?
    Short answer. Because FTG wants to be the big shot. Nothing more. She found a group of weak minded followers hell bent on sticking their noses where it doesn't belong as well as right up FTGs crack.
    In all reality she wants to be the next Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

    I've pointed out the atrocities in Americas Legal System as far as violations of Constitutional Rights. I've asked the Scholars at Stinkin Armpits why those aren't addressed. None of the Stinkin bunch of them can come up with an answer. Trust me! AA is never forced upon anyone as you are lead to believe. It's part of an agreement up front where anyone has the opportunity to offer an alternative. Assumung they were forced into AA it would be the most miniscule of Constitutional violations brought fourth by the Courts. All met by complete disregard by the Stinkin Crew.

    They're simply a bunch of Social Misfits following in the footsteps of the biggest Social Misfit of them all.

    The Stinkin Groupies couldn't find acceptance in AA. They were deemed "Misfits" in AA too.
    Now they retaliate

    ReplyDelete
  23. Gunthar, why are you here ?

    You don't like anyone to disagree with you on your blog but you think it's okay to come over here and spew your garbage ?

    Oh yeah, the ST crew are hypocrites. I forgot already.

    Anyway, if you have a better method than AA, please promote it.

    The problem is, he ST crew sounds just like everyone did at any bar I ever drank at.
    Everyone is an expert and everyone knows what's best for everyone else (while doing shit about their own lives).

    Hey, enjoy yourself ovef there.
    You're right. If it bothered me that you wanted to live like that, it would be my problem.

    You just don't seem to realize that it doesn't.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Don't worry Cuda.
    I'm sure that ftg has no intention of disturbing your little circle jerk. You shitmaggots can piss and moan up McBlowdog's ass all day long about us angry infidels and no one is going to bother you.

    Keep up the good work, and thanks for showing the 100 or so people who will ever see your blog what a bunch of dysfunctional hypocrites you fuck nuts at AA really are.

    ReplyDelete
  25. There you go. I consider it a cyber victory when an opponent has to resort to name calling. It means they ran out of ammo but don't have the good sense to take their finger off the trigger.
    You lose Gunther Regroup and come back anytime.

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  26. Tony J.

    What the fuck?

    Isn't this what you wanted?
    It sure seemed like it when you were trolling the fuck out of ST.

    Go ahead now... Cry about how you're being abused. Be a victim.

    You are such a predictable fuckin' rubberheaded freak. And what a fuckin' hypocrite to be talking about prayer and meditation one minute and then threatening to throw one of off of a subway platform the next. Talk about delusions of grandeur... Did the people at ST nail poor Tony J. up to the cross just like Jesus. Oh you poor thing. Did someone say something bad to you? Did somebody hurt your widdle feewings?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Cuda says, "They're simply a bunch of Social Misfits" in one post, and in the next he says, "I consider it a cyber victory when an opponent has to resort to name calling."

    Looks like cuda is suffering from a bad case of Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome. Oh well... Some are sicker than others ya know.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Hey Jim, how was Chris R ?

    Did you end up seeing him ?

    ReplyDelete
  29. Hi Tony,

    Chris did OK. Just a four hour workshop.

    Had lunch with him and visited a bit, mostly talked about the business we both work in and about people we know in common.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I see it all the time Gunther. They walk into AA looking for friends. These friendless people are simply "Square Pegs" that just don't fit. They turn to Alcohol and drugs to make up for their lack of companionship. They then hook up with other drinkers or drug users in places where other misfits come to roost. Usually a bar. That's where they get a taste of AA. By word of mouth. They then invent some sort of imaginary problem with drugs or alcohol and waltz into a room looking for a sense of belonging.
    Well guess what?? They don't belong there either.
    Rather than admit they don't fit in AA they blame AA. That's what losers do.

    I'll guarantee one thing Gunther. You will never be able to explain to anyones satisfaction exactly why you and your cronies have an incessant hard on (including FTG) for AA when the other blatant and deliberate violations of the Constitution are much more prevalent.

    In fact we'll start with the fourth.
    What gives them the right to come to your home or workplace with a cup for you to piss in?
    Doesn't that violate your "Right" to unwarranted searches and seizures?

    Doesn't it violate your rights granted by the Fifth Amendment?

    What about the Second Amendment? The guns are taken away even though there was a perceived "Right" to keep them. I guess it wasn't a "Right" to begin with.

    Where's the outcry from the crowd that stinks when it comes to these Constitutional Violations?

    They don't care. They don't care for the simple matter of them just not caring.

    So again! Why the hard on for AA? I can only come to one conclusion. They ran you square pegs the hell out of there. For that you carry a grudge.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Nice 1st Column there Gunthar. Call me when you have about 20 pages and we'll 5th Step it.

    In place of A.A. running you out of meetings, you could go ahead and use my name as a representative of A.A.

    Because I would and will run a lilly-livered chicken fucker's ass like yours out of A.A. each and every time. To sit back and flex your keyboard muscles and call anyone here a pussy, Cunt-hair2000, is laughable.

    To try to discredit A.A.s effectiveness is of no interest to us. We can read Agent Orange's spew anytime we want. We don't have to hear you Agent Orange minions reiterate and misquote and misconstrue it over and over again... down to where a supposed 5% effectiveness is taken down to 0% or even negative percentage. Hell, according to your idols, I go to an A.A. meeting and 5 drunks take a drink.

    We know A.A. has got some problems. We don't expect it to have a 100% success rate. Every author of this blog here has had much success with the A.A. program as it's called out in that book by those two drunks you don't even know... but hate.

    We understand you hate Bill W., Dr. Bob, and all who support A.A., including us and any whom have found sobriety and success in A.A. But to try and link us to the sins of the world, that's just not going to fly here. You call people whom you don't even know pussies from across a keyboard. You call me names. What happened in your life to make you so maladjusted to life? Did you mom put you in a dumpster at childbirth? Were you beaten by your father?

    Come on, Gunthar. Put the A.A. thing aside. Let's finish that 1st Column and we'll find where you set the ball rolling in the 3rd/4th Column.

    But to point your finger at all the awful things A.A. has done to the world is... special. If A.A. is so bad as you say... you're really saying we all that use it are bad. 10th tradition and etc. aside... if A.A. is a fucked up cult, I honestly want to know about it. I don't want to be a part of that.

    But I offer you this challenge, Gunthar; putting aside this bullshit accusation that A.A. and treatment center recovery as being the same thing... tell me one meeting place/club/ group in my area where these horrible atrocities have taken place. Surely the 100 of you anti/XAers have found something close to my area; Colorado... Pueblo to be specific. Give me addresses, dates, and names. Let me research them first hand and if I find anything near as bad as what you claim, I'll not only acknowledge it, but I'll do something about it and get back to you with the specifics.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Cuda.
    In all fairness, a lot of these "square peg" type folks are sent to A.A. by the legal system or treatment facilities, or both.

    But even with these, I don't see the animosity that I see online.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I believe you Jim. I don't know about the rest of the country but around here the Court Orders tend to congregate in Clubs or weak meetings. This usually turns out to be a group 5th step since they all sit around and discuss the nature of their wrongs. One of the last things that gets brought up is God. If it does a doorknob is an appropriate substitute.
    ST and the ACLU doesn't have a leg to stand on. If they did The ACLU would have been instrumental in bringing this practice to an end. Long ago.
    The "Religion Card" that they like to pull is usually trumped by any real life experiences that may be brought up in the rooms. Usually those point to the opposite.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Last time I read Gunthar's (a.k.a. Donald T. Quinn, Anon, etc.) posting on ST, he stated that he was going to clean up his act as far as posting inflammatory messages on pro-AA boards... look how he keeps his word!
    I challenge Gunthar or any other ST "loyalist" to produce just one post of mine that could justify my banishment... just one post that used any of the language that he has used here. I researched most of Tony's posts, and found none that were even remotely as bad as Gunthars, so what gives?
    And to think that MA stated that he and FTG are "first amendment junkies"! I wonder if he has listened to AM radio recently... like in the past 20 years.
    I really think that the upcoming book from FTG has something to do with this purge - maybe they intend to use the ST site to promote or sell her book, and don't want dissidents to spoil things for them.
    It's really all about money over there at ST, I think.
    Thank you for publishing my original post. I hope to see the word get out about censorship at ST, especially after FTG's fine words about her not wanting to bar "trolls" (what a liar - one day after assuring readers of that, I found myself blocked from attempting to post a protest over Tony's banishment)!

    ReplyDelete
  35. @Rotten Ralph...

    Your post was caught in the spam filter.
    You were never banned.
    1st amendment rights have nothing to do with whether or not you can post on someone else's blog.


    @Mcblowdog... No I'm not going to make a list of supposed character defects... I'm not interested in columns... I'm not interested in what your holy prophet Bill Wilson has to say. I've consulted with a power greater than myself (the folks at ST) and they have assured me that there is no need for this. They've also reminded me that my original goal was to stop drinking... not an all out religious conversion.

    Wake the fuck up!
    What's the matter with you people?

    ReplyDelete
  36. What's the matter with us? You said "Us".
    I don't know what's the matter with us. We're not the ones from the ST crowd that can't seem to keep our noses out of things that aren't really any of our business in the first place.
    So I didn't get an answer from you Gunther. Here's the questions again. Get together with MAs dumb ass and see if you can answer these.
    What gives them the right to come to your home or workplace with a cup for you to piss in?
    Doesn't that violate your "Right" to unwarranted searches and seizures?

    Doesn't it violate your rights granted by the Fifth Amendment?

    What about the Second Amendment? The guns are taken away even though there was a perceived "Right" to keep them. I guess it wasn't a "Right" to begin with.

    Then come back when you can't and tell me all about violations of the Constitution on the Courts part by making AA part of the conditions of staying out of jail.

    I did say "conditions" as no one is ever forced to go to AA.

    Unless you can produce a person that is willing to admit they were "Forced"
    But you can't.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Cuda...

    Here is your answer...

    No one comes to my house or my workplace with a cup for me to piss in. I have been in veterans programs that have required me to do so. Since I was just going to flush that piss down the toilet anyway It didn't bother me a bit to let it go... I even offered them some poop to go along with it.

    I do however believe that all drugs should be legal, and that the government has no business telling people what they can and can't put into their bodies. For this reason I agree that it is a violation of constitutional rights to test people's urine... I just don't have a dog in this fight. It's just not that important to me.

    As for the right to bear arms... I think we're ready for a constitutional amendment on that one. You certainly shouldn't have a gun. I'd feel much safer if people like you weren't allowed to have them.

    The courts have no business ordering people to attend religious services... That's just what AA is... religious services... I do have a dog in this fight. The reason I choose to be involved in this fight is that AA has harmed an enormous number of people. AA is a wacko religious cult and no pone should be ordered to go to their wacky cult meetings.

    ReplyDelete
  38. The problem with these pissing matches, it gets to be about who wins and who loses. It gets to be about who's right and who's wrong.

    Gunthar, I agree with you about the courts ordering people to attend A.A. meetings. I would think that maybe those of us who agree that it is a violation of constitutional rights (whether we agree on other points or not), could find some middle ground to meet on. Maybe start writing letters to our lawmakers, stuff like that.

    Fighting and name calling won't solve the problem and I refuse to get into that.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Do any of us proAAers care if they call it a religion? I don't.

    ReplyDelete
  40. I'm back from speaking at meetings and working with sponsees but the pissing contest still continues. Ok, here goes.

    Gunthar, if you want to believe that AA is a whacko religious cult, go right ahead. A lot of people agree with. I don't. You want to ban guns? Start a process to amend the constitution. You want to pump drugs into your body? Hell, it's your body so treat it as you wish.

    Now, about court-ordered attendance at AA meetings. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that indeed, such mandatory attendance is unconstitutional. See Inguye vs. Kemna Case No. 06-15474. Several other Courts of Appeals also agree. And so do I.

    But we still get folks in meetings with slips to be signed, some for the courts, some for voluntary treatment programs. And we sign the slips. Some meetings don't. It's up to the home group. But you see, Circuit Courts Of Appeals decisions are enforceable only within the Court's district. They aren't nationwide.

    And as far as we in AA are concerned, we don't get involved in arguing whether it's constitutional or not. Remember the "No opinion on outside issues" thing?

    So if you want to rant about drugs, guns, or the constitutionality of mandatory meeting attendance go ahead. Just find someone who gives a shit and argue with them. And keep up with the name calling. That always impresses the girls.

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  41. @joe cool...

    I never said I want to pump drugs into my body. I'm 100% clean and sober. I have no desire to catch a buzz of any kind.

    As far as my little rant about drugs, guns, or the constitutionality of mandatory meeting attendance... If you read back through the thread you'll see that I was answering a few questions from Cuda.

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  42. I'm sure there is more to all of us than just this.

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  43. Gunthar:
    FTG gives quite a different reason for blocking my posts (three of them). No matter - she has lied so many times I don't place any value to what she says (system failure indeed)!
    How about this scenario: MA and FTG really lose it and purge Tony J, myself, and perhaps a few others that we don't know about right now. I do the unexpected and post here instead of just disappearing without a trace, and ST damage control (you) kicks into action.
    Won't work, because I'm not buying your explanation(s). I have butted heads with FTG and MA on four different occasions, and know that my return to ST would be very brief indeed.
    ST invites comments from the English-speaking world, and even solicits funds from that same audience. Nowhere do they state that posters must agree with the unstated policies of site administration or face summary banishment, but that is the way things actually work at Stinkin Thinkin.
    For all their fine words, MA and FTG refuse to face the facts that people in the English-speaking world EXPECT the freedom to voice their opinions on public forums (which is what ST is), and also expect that there be some clear and fair process in place to deal with the expression of those opinions.
    Even if I believe the lies from FTG about my own banishment, the fact remains:
    WHEN TONY J WAS BANISHED, THEY BANISHED ME!
    I would have voluntarily left immediately anyway, since I have no use for the sort of high-handed tactics MA and FTG practice.
    On a lighter note, I have thought up a name for FTG's upcoming book, which is:
    "Thoughts of Chairman MAo". How do you like that, Gunthar?
    And think about this: should sales of her book be good, MA and FTG enjoy the royalties and you maybe get a free ST T-shirt for all your work on their behalf. If sales tank (a real possibility here), the ST site will probably follow suit in a short while, and where does that leave you? Have you noticed the steep falloff in posts since the "trolls" thread, or the reduction of new posts in the "Why I left AA thread"?
    Trouble in paradise, perhaps....

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  44. I don't think I was technically banned from there. I last posted in the "Why I left A.A." thread because they were fascinated with my presence and they had nothing better to talk about but me... so I graced them with my presence, and some called for my banishment. I just sort of stopped posting there.

    So... I really don't know for sure. I'm going to assume I'm not, and just let it go.

    The problem with a place like ST is that it cannot sustain itself. It can only express itself when there's friction. In the world of fiction, they have no object with which to converse. They can sit back and wipe each others chins off... but without conversation and actual engagement with their enemies... they will get bored and have nothing to actually... do. They can dig up only so many "A.A. is the Seven Plagues of Revelation" posts.

    ... and there will be wailing and knashing of teeth...

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  45. Stinkin Thinkin mottos I humbly propose:
    "We have met the enemy, and they is us!" (Walt Kelly)
    "What they doth protest, they doth feed upon. Without polio, Salk is a putz!" (Lenny Bruce, in his "Thank you, masked man" routine)

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  46. If you don't like ST don't go there... It's that simple. No one can force you to participate.

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