Saturday, July 10, 2010

Are anti/XAers claiming that A.A. causes suicide?

Another blog is running a thread about whether or not A.A. is the culprit for so many suicides and not the nature of the "fatal malady" itself.

"I think that some people might find that the connection isn’t between AA and suicide, but between alcoholism and suicide, and that highlighting the correlation is specious. What is your take on that?"

Specious; having a false look of truth, deceptive attraction.

The writer claims to not know much about the topic of "suicide" but wants to learn more about it by opening the topic up to the predominantly anti/XAers... see if they can't form an outline of sorts. Yeah right.

She cites the Vaillant Surveys; Now we're going to see some personal testimonies and comments on the topic;

  • _ says
    I’d bet it’s both. Sure, alcoholism is dangerous and depressing and can lead to suicide. But the 12 steps are depressing and defeating and seem to facilitate “benders,” so I’d say they exacerbate the suicide rate. Hmmm. Not my experience in the steps. I've found them to be very freeing actually. I have seen a lot of people in A.A. who do everything but steps and repeat the same drunkalogues over and over again. I wouldn't say their total life is a waste. I would say they could do better in a spiritual sense and I wonder why they stay in A.A., but who knows? Maybe I'll be in their shoes one day. I could see myself just walking away from A.A. at any given time. But right now, I see a bunch of hope and a bunch of cool folks enjoying themselves in A.A. For most, it's not a death sentence.
  • A reference to a blamethenile vid... _ says, "This is undoubtedly the worst problem of the AA faith, and their promotion of the concept of “powerlessness” which when combined with the AA faith’s promotion of telling people they have a progressive, incurable, and terminal disease, leads people to hopelessness. This misinformation is promoted by people that have NO credibility."I'm not even going to watch that stupid video. I can imagine how they manipulate the data and the goings on at meetings. Which is it, a religion, a cult, a place to get 13th stepped, or a place to commit suicide? Get real for just a minute. Not my experience. If it was, it would make me look pretty bad for just being a part of it. That's exactly what you will jump on next; McGowdog... bad dawg!
  • _says, "In October of 2000, I attempted suicide. I was drunk and took a whole bottle of tranquilizers. I knew what I was doing–I wasn’t in a blackout. I grew up in AA. My first meeting was at age 15. I would relapse and leave about every six years, thinking my only way out of the program was to drink, just like the group told me. I was a naive and impressionable girl. The women who 1st-stepped me–all I can remember now (I have blocked out most of my early days in AA) is they said something like, “Listen to these people and learn.” So I did listen. I was indoctrinated young. Eventually I started thinking, day and night in cult-speak. It made its way into my creative writing; my conversations with non-program people; and it dominated my thinking for over 20 years. I was desperate–with that one little shred of my mind I wouldn’t let them have–to get away from these people, but I was so afraid that I would relapse (which would happen anyway) that I kept coming back for more brainwashing. I have finally gotten away from the program to the havens of this blog and the orange papers and Rational Recovery. I truly have only begun to deprogram my mind from this lifeblood-sucking cult. Had ONE person in treatment or a therapist in all of my years of therapy told me there are options, I might have been spared so many wasted years. But in the 80s, I don’t know that there were too many other options. Anyway, in 2000, as I was desperately trying to stay sober for thirty days while going to the program, I relapsed again. Obviously something (I do believe it was not me) was “honestly” not working. As I contemplated my choices of jails, institutions and death or AA, I became increasingly suicidal. I have depressive tendencies anyway, but I felt the walls were closing in on me, in terms of the either/or rhetoric that was fed me. After three days I woke up in a hospital bed, and as soon as I was stable: one guess as to where I was sent. Yet more brainwashing. I had been around for a long time by then, had seen some pretty amazingly unhealthy and downright twisted behavior, and just couldn’t believe I was destined to mix with crazy people in a crazy cult. All I wanted was out. I had been through graduate school by then, majoring in English and having acquired critical thinking skills. I have finally gotten sober. I haven’t been sober long and am some days barely hanging on. I am inspired by this site, and inspired seems a funny word since many of you are atheists. It doesn’t matter to me. Many of you are sane and make sense, and I can’t thank “Mr. Orange” enough for what his online book has done for me. I am new here, and wonder if you all have any non-12 step suggestions for a fledgling former cult-er who is trying very hard to stay away from the all-too-seductive lure of AA and /or booze. Peace." You... are a certified nutjob. You are/were socialized in A.A. You are a drama queen and should seek outside help.
  • _ says "I have lost several friends to AA’s self fulfilling prophecy of death. One hung himself with chain after a meeting, another drank himself to death in front of a steak and glass of wine like in the big book story, and another took some pills and went to bed.
    All these and many more were my favorite people to hang out with. They were uncommonly fun, enjoyed road trips, eating out, etc.
    They all went to AA, accepted the indoctrination, and died due to a modified belief system. This is what I hate about AA.
    AA’s need to teach others that there are many ways to quit or moderate drinking instead of teaching they have the only cure." You know... I think that the removal of all the MOTR and slogan shit would go a long way to resolving a lot of problems in A.A. When stuff gets added in and people try to hustle others into A.A. just because it worked for them... I could see where it could cause problems. Hope I don't partake in such BS. If I was harming people inside or outside of A.A., my life would suffer. Why would I want that? I do have a conscience, you know? Most of us do. We are not the Hells Angels and meth dealers and puppy killers.
  • _ says, "I saw one friend die in a similar fashion, though I don’t believe he actually meant to commit suicide. He had been forced into the 12 steps and just couldn’t get it……..and was told the fault was his. Whilst he “moderated” his alcohol to a degree, his guilt made him him look elsewhere and he died injecting heroin. I’m sure from speaking to him just before he died that his failure to work the steps was the main factor, in his mind though certainly not mine. I always told him to “get out more”………..live life, see people and stop the self pity, but he had too many people from within AA telling him he was weak, diseased and going to die. It’s a disgusting programme for some folks who don’t need bullying. I would love to take issue with this guy and the way he was “abuse works on most everyone – being vulnerable to it is not a character defect or the result of a dysfunctional background. Isn’t there some recovery program based on having more fun in life, instead of on becoming sober and gloomy? pushed” to his death but there’s no point in AA." Bullying? Really? If someone tries to force you into doing something ... inside of A.A. ... a person ought to be able to stand up for themselves and just say "No". It may get you "fired" as a sponsee, but who gives a fuck? I give thou personal power to not be victims and to run your own life... inside and outside of A.A. It works for me. And I really really want it to work for you too. I hate the slogan, "But for the grace of God there go I." I hated it before you stupifucks brought it up. I was told to not cuss so much. Oops.
  • _ says, "Yes, well, it’s like being sent to one of those Khmer Rouge style reeducation camps, at the level of the mindfuck. Of course it drives people off the cliff. And I’m not joking!" A.A. drives people off the cliff? That's believable.
  • _ says, "... and I think that you can use your experience in AA as a springboard to help a lot of people deprogram from AA and find an exit strategy." Exit strategy... "What are you doing tonight? Going to an A.A. meeting?" Hmmm. No. Not ever again. They kill people and entice them into suicide. Think I'll watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer instead."
  • _ says, "AA can pour huge amounts of shit on people. None of it is worth dying for." Lots of shit... Shit happens, but it usually doesn't get poured on people. No?
  • _ says, " Sure, suicide is selfish, AA is a selfish program. Those that I have known who did it did so because there was no hope. They believed they were bodily and mentally different from their fellows as AA teaches. AA had taught them that there were no other options for serenity other than an AA recovery. They kept coming back even though it didn’t work for them. They killed themselves because they could not take the pain any more.
    I did hear this one good platitude about suicide in AA: Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
    Tell it to someone who can’t take the pain anymore, they probably can’t even hear you?" You know enough about A.A. to be dangerous. Ever heard that one? I've heard some nasty mean shit in A.A. come to think of it. I usually laugh. But I'm twisted. And a lot of people know me, so... they are not threatened by me! Hell, I know most of the people in A.A. meetings. If there was a new person, I/we certainly wouldn't want to run them off or run them off a cliff or run them into suicide! You fucksticks are amusing yourselves at our expense, no?
  • _ says, "The thing is, AA would teach you that there is no hope – but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Things will get better (especially if you leave AA and get some real help for your addiction and/or suicidal feelings). For the record, I know a person who attempted suicide as a direct result of steppers telling her that she was powerless and defective and would inevitably die a miserable alcoholic death as the result of one lapse. AA teaches despair to vulnerable people who need real help. That is why they should be stopped, or at least be made publicly accountable. Or at the very least be required by law to get some proper qualifications before they are allowed to “counsel” impressionable addicted people and foist their misanthropic and hopeless world view upon them." There again... you know enough about A.A. to be dangerous to yourself and others. Accountable? People in A.A. are accountable for everything they say and do.
  • _ says, " I am older and wiser now, and I have recognized the AA program for what it is: a cult that lures people in with its false promises of a better life. I really do believe it is a cult, but how could I have known any better as an impressionable young teen?" Back to the professional and institutionalized XA member.
  • k says, "The main reason why I am a critic if AA is based on my observations of 2 people sharing in a meeting their suicidal thoughts, one of which actually attempted suicide the other I am not sure about.
    Their shares incuded the blanket derogatory name calling of themselves as alcoholics about them being selfishness, egotitsical etc. straight out of the big book. They wondered why other people, like their guru sponsor could get it and they couldn’t.
    They didn’t have any of these traits, the big book had convinced them they had and because of the promises hadn’t come true and they were still depressed they felt like a failure aswell, probably dishonest as thats what the big book says of people who fail the program.
    The modern perspective on treating the majority of people with depression is to raise self esteeem and not try and smash it like the big book of AA does.
    I repeatedly posted similar stuff on SR until I got banned (woohoo). The AAers response was that it was an outside matter, they must be spiritually unfit."
    (oh k! Join the club! Except the rest of us are and will continue to be sober. You're not.)They fail to grasp that becasue AA believes people are suffering alcoholism even years after not drinking!What are its symptoms, well for a start the promises describe a person going from being depressed to being happy. So understanbly people think their depression and desire to drink to self medicate is alcoholism, rather than depression.
    Alcoholism involes drinking alcohol it can cause depression and depression can cause alcoholism but they are different things
    The AA program, the big book seems aimed at narcissists and people of a deviant nature. Not all people who drink alcoholically fit into these stereotypes of alcoholics. Hello K. I saw that one coming. It's too bad too. Some of the folks from the Sober Recovery 12 Step Subforum fillet'd you like a fish and skinned you like a dear whenever you went stumbling into there. You've found a good home. Hope you can maintain that sobriety and keep that victim card handy.
  • That "Quote of the Day" where tiburon88 was being called out by an SR poster. I've got a tiburon88 post in here somewhere, if you want to see where that troll is coming from.A postback here to tiburon88 from SR. He's the one who says he walked into an A.A. meeting... sober, and said, "I hope you all relapse in here." Part of me think that's funny, but part of me would have been shoving my boot up part of tiburon's ass if he'd have said that in my meeting. Don't commit suicide though. Just go away.
  • _ says, "The other problem is that AA as a baseline encourages thinking that is extremely conducive to feelings of intense shame and moralizing. Someone I know actually hung himself after he got clean. It was after really having time to think about it and his behavior on meth, that he felt irredeemably evil. Suffice it to say, he was most certainly not.Suicide is complicated without addiction thrown into the mix. Throw in addiction and it gets exponentially moreso." A.A. does not teach shame, you idiots! It teaches surrender, courage, acceptance, forgiveness, reason, love, joy... Suicide is about apathy! Shit! If you're gonna kill yourself, go fucking drink instead. How many times have I said, "I'd rather have a bottle infrontofme than a frontal lobatomy"?
  • _ says, "Actually, I would guess that AA suicides are not usually “selfish” at all. The program is designed to instill fear, hopelessness and powerlessness – and often involves a huge amount of psychological bullying too. Sometimes the only control over his or her life that a person feels they have is the decision to end it." Surrender is the path to integrity. With surrender comes power. It's a mere matter of changing course. When people come into A.A., they aren't usually looking for suicide prevention. They are looking for help on getting sober. Duh!
  • _ says, " I learned not only to recognize my right to get angry, but the fact that it’s completely normal for people to get angry from time to time.(Like many people, I was brought up to believe that getting angry was always bad.) It’s interesting that AA has an open policy of telling people they are not allowed to feel or display anger – ever – even if they have very good cause. This in itself is almost bound to lead to depression, and that can possibly lead to suicide, because people will continue to feel anger but will repress it and beat themselves up about it. There are plenty of AA-ers posting very angrily all over the internet, though. I wonder if they pretend to be serene when they’re with their AA pals?" Having anger and dealing with resentments are two different things. I can get mad any fucking time I want to bitch! See? I don't act any certain way amongst those in A.A. If I'm in a meeting, I state my current experience on the topic. I tell the fucking truth. If I feel like cussing, I cuss. We cuss. WTFuck?
  • _ says, "says
    To find the smoking gun on AA and suicide, you only need to look at conference-approved AA literature. They admit AA members contribute to suicides in their conference approved pamphlet, “The AA Member — Medications & Other Drugs”. Page 13 states “AA members and many of their physicians have described situations in which depressed patients have been told by AAs to throw away the pills, only to have the depression return with all of its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.”
    http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-11_aamembersMedDrug.pdf" Here's one I want to look into further. I think it's possible that these claims are true and are a problem. Don't play fucking doctor in A.A. If I see someone doing it, I'm going to piss in their wheaties and tell the victim of it to not listen to such bullshit. My manic depressive friend is an example of this (the current one whom is still alive). I told him to listen to his doctor, find another meeting, and he did.
  • _ says, "_ says
    _, have a look at NICE on AA. And tell me what you think might be done.I think that AA has played a sort of big con trick on everyone, even those who don’t come into contact with it. They are just universally admired for their bravery. Therefore lots of people drink themselves to death rather than submit to it." IDK. Maybe you're right? What do we do about it? Maybe your secular programs will help people from commiting suicide once you get off your XA Cult Blog and go start some meetings for these folks to get some f2f attention... kind of like A.A., but less suicidal.
  • _ says, " I have struggled with anxiety and depression as far back as age 11. That’s why I drank–to feel better. That’s why I ever drank. I had been through treatment all through my teen years and AA as well. My emotional/mental (not intellectual) growth was severely damaged both by drinking and the brainwashing I got in AA. It really did a number on me. I had been hospitalized for suicidal ideation several times before I actually attempted it. I learned that talking about it=mental hospital and more steps. As I have said, it is or APPEARS to be a selfish act, but when you’re in the other person’s shoes, you can surely understand he or she is not capable of thinking straight. I had one focus in mind. I wanted the whole thing simply to STOP. I wanted to stop drinking; I wanted out of AA; I wanted out of my mental disorder, etc. I wanted my life back from all of these mental health bastards who had their hands all over it. I wasn’t living. I was simply existing, and I wanted out, end of story.It has taken ten years for me to regain control over my life, and while I am still on medication and seeing a therapist, I feel so much better to be free from AA and the sickness it perpetuates. I am soooo glad to have stumbled upon this blog and the orange papers, I can’t tell you how freeing that is. Peace." A.A. is not a babysitting service. Get a shrink.
  • _ says, "I think your post hilights the vital importance of what is done by this small group of people. People do die, and they die alot, and they kill others in drunk driving accidents, due to the misinformation that is promoted by this industry.
    People are told, unfortunately by people that are given unearned credibilty, that they have a progressive, incurable, and terminal disease. They also have “powerless” instilled in them.
    This industry does have the facts against them. They also cannot control the internet, although I am sure they would love to.
    When I was in the spin dry (2007), there were no phones, TV, internet services, and the only reading material was AA approved literature. As I look back now it said “CULT” all over it. It was in NO way medical treatment.
    Out of the other “inmates” I was “incarcerated” in the rehab, that I have remained in contact with, I am the only one that actually did stop drinking.
    I do feel it is vitally important to try to educate others about the con game the recovery industry is. It is great to see sites like this, and see others confront the industry.
    The industry does not have the facts behind it, and they crumble under intense questioning. That is why sites like Dr. Phil are so highly censored.
    We can change peoples thinking. It is a massive undertaking, but I am a firm believer that we save lives by what we do. I am just incredibly thankful that Agent Orange took the time to create his masterpiece." So, A.A. causes people to drive drunk too? Wow! Nice to have a scapegoat.
  • I had a friend who went into her car in the garage with her 2 older dogs turn on her car and killed herself and she said because she couldnt do the AA way and felt so much guilt. Then this girl at the furneal said and I quote” she couldnt follow a simple program” wow she blamed her and of course not AA/ AA blames you shames you. Alot of people who relapsed all the time felt like a failure in the rooms and killed thereselves. AA is not a program of thinking on your own. You are not allow to think on yourown remember you best thinking got you there. You are not allow to depend on you own thinking –AA insisted if you leave AA or dont get AA you will DIE. AA kills no doubt about that. AA people do not trust themselves and heavy dependency on there program, endless meetings . Abuse and lots of milious gossip. AA is self-center narrcisstic to the max. Every single person I have met in those rooms was NPD. I get sick when I think about the shame they induce on you. AA is a destructive-abusive… Leaving AA is the best thing that ever happen to me. I am sober and clean because I made a choice to do so. In the 4th step when you have had abuse as a child phycially-sexually you are to look at your part. bullshit. Trauma is not a light matter and a person (sponsor) telling you to see your part. is so FU. AA has been around for a long time due to them using the word God. AA is far away from true God. The enemy is clapping here not God. Dick B will burn in hell for trying to cram AA as christian roots. If he so christian then why not defend the bible and help christians through the bible. AA thinks its the bible. AA is false. Bill or Bob had a mistress-smoke like crazy and left some of his roylaties to her. He was never a christian he was antichrist. His big white light experince was because he was doing LSD. How can AAers overlook that. So many are decieved. The bible is strict that you cannot serve 2 masters nor idiolize or have any gospel you choose. It pisses me off when I hear AA say its christian roots BS. I really think that a book should be wrote more than one on there experinces of horror with AA. The truth will come out again its only a little amount of time. When I have heard in the rooms oh i Church it didnt work BS again. You mean you tried Jesus and didnt work. AA for me was the most fucked up program i have ever attended and that includes the people . SELFISH -extremly easily mind control. " Here we go again with the fucking preaching. Talk to my born-again Southern Baptist brother. You can save each other. We'll all go to hell together too. It'll be fun. So long as you lead the fucking way. I'd rather drink than hear your preaching.
  • _ says, "Plus they will tell you its divinely inspired and that they still cannot think on there own 20 plus years later.. still having a sponsor to think.. its very sad , very sad that AA kills your spirt and your God given right to think on your own and be empowered. AA is defeat no win they believe there are never to blame" Some of us have found something that works for us. Where should the blame come in? Blame is a weak demonic force that is conquered by Step fucking 1! Merely surrendering to some power greater than yourself will enable you to have a smigeon of hope, or at least seek it... then if followed up some action, you'll be so fucking beyond the forces of death. Now... if you're a certified loon or a chronically depressed individual and need some outside help, get it. In A.A., we're gonna talk about God. Deal. Cope.
  • _ says, "I remember AA largely as a tawdry melodrama. Sudden deaths of members through drink, drugs or suicide were just grist to the gossip mill or anecdotal illustrations to self-serving 12 step sermons (“There but for the grace of God, blah, blah, blah….”)It doesn’t surprise me that there is a high rate of suicide in AA, given that so many people have co-occurrring mental problems such as depression and they meet with so little understanding from those immersed in the AA dogma. Many, as k mentioned, drank to self-medicate an underlying mental health problem. I did." I didn't. I drank because I rather enjoyed it... the sense of comfort and ease that proceeded a few drinks and all. Call it dogma all you wish. If you want to start another program from the ground up or do something besides A.A., I give you my permission.
  • _ says, "I remember one guy at a step meeting saying that he wouldn’t go to a funeral of his friend who died alcoholic because he didn’t get the program, he wouldn’t do it.He also said in another meeting calling counsellors, other none AA based help." Well I guess he was a sick fuck. That's not very nice.
  • _ says, "AA is not interested in underlying and possibly fatal psychological issues that might drive people to drinking in the first place. They really do believe in divine interventionist miracles, and that praying to the god of AA will cure people, not just of alcoholism but of any other ‘spiritual defects’ – which is how they view psychological illnesses or disorders. I think we all have to recognize that we’re dealing with serious fundamentalist lunatics here. How often do convinced steppers stop to consider that other psychological issues might be anything to do with alcohol abuse, and how often do they advise newcomers to get some kind of proper help? (Answer: They don’t.) I even read McGowDog saying on another site that if people prayed more they wouldn’t get cancer (because someone he knows who smokes but prays hasn’t got cancer – yet). Apart from the obvious bollocks this is, it is incredibly insulting for people who have spent their whole life praying, have led a ‘spiritual’ life , and who still get cancer ( people like my mother, for instance. She led a damn sight more of a useful and ‘spiritual’ life than you ever seem destined to do, McDog or whatever your name is). Well, it’s hugely insulting and damaging to anyone at all, believer or non-believer."Who in the fuck are you to say that God isn't all. That God can't take care of other things? You can't tell me that a good doctor won't tell his/her patients to pray for their condition if they are a person of faith.
  • _have been a victim of a con trick. A horrible horrible brainwashing con-trick. It is indeed a version of hell to be an unwilling member says, "As for suicide in AA – I have seen it and I understand. People end up in AA because they can’t cope, and they are treated with methods that don’t help. As of yet, no one has the answer for the emotional agony that some of use used drugs and alcohol to cover up. They can get you clean, but then you’re just raw." Maybe what you were missing was power to live in the world and to have a happy satifying life. A.A. has a method to help you out... if you're a real alcoholic that is. If you've got other issues, you might want to table that and decide if you need/want A.A. or not. You can TRY to do A.A. to solve some problems and to feel good and comfortable and stuff. But you ain't gonna get comfortable is you do what's outlined. If after doing Step 7, you don't find some kind of renewed hope in your ability to have a great life, leave. Do something else or do it again and demand to find out what you missed.
  • _ says, "_, stick around. You . It is the people who have suffered who drive me to exposeaa. You are one, I am one. I used to read about extreme cults just in order to cheer myself up!
    I feel lucky that I found Orange before I got a sponsor, did a share, etc etc.
    Your rejection of aa cult dogma (it is a cult in my house, z!) is in fact incredibly mentally healthy in my humble opinion. " Welcome to your new fucking cult. Now go make vids about how guys want to do their own mother and describe which position he wants to get her in... that's real nice youtube entertainment. You guys are fucking liars and discredit yourselves with your over the top drama.
  • _ says, "By doing this AA handed me a “one size fits all” list of life problems to solve, taking the focus off of the real problems and creating new ones.
    I thought that these AA folks were the experts on addiction, and so I believed what they taught me about myself. I adopted all of the AA isms and started to believe that I was an inherently defective misfit who just couldn’t get anything right.
    The more I got involved in the steps… The deeper my depression became. I was looking at my past through the lense provided by AA and that made my future prospects seem much darker… That’s when I attempted suicide for the first time.
    I want to be clear… AA did not cause me to attempt suicide… AA did foster feelings of hopelessness and despair that contributed to my irrational decision.
    It’s pretty simple from my perspective.
    AA uses mind control and psychological manipulation to recruit new members.A small percentage of those who go to AA for help stick with the cult… A larger percentage never adhere and leave the cult without thinking too much about it… and a small percentage leave the cult in despair due to the self-defeatism they’ve learned as members… Many of these folks lose hope and commit suicide as a result.
    I can’t prove it, but my personal experience tells me that AA drives people to suicide."
  • _ says, "I think that kills this thread.
    Oh well… on to another." Is "one size fits all" the new anti/XAer buzz term?

Well, that solves it then. Anti/XAers pretty much think we in A.A. cause suicide. Bummer. I'd like to take some time going over these claims... treating them separate... considering some of them more carefully.

I didn't want to engage this topic over there. There are 38 of them and 1 of me.

I would like to jump ahead and address the mention of me in there. I don't remember specifically what I said about smoking and getting cancer or not getting cancer. I have been of the belief that people who smoke and don't worry about it seem to do better than those who smoke and worry about it or have a weak life-force. DRH said something about naturally grown tobacco correlated positively and those that use pesticides correlate negatively. IDK. I'm glad I've since quit all forms of tobacco and that my mom, a lung cancer survivor, has quit cigarettes as well. People who smoke stink anyway. Yuck.


On a personal note; I know three people who commited suicide. My uncle...with booze, who had once committed a vehicular manslaughter and never lived it down, a guy who was manic depressive and I never saw it coming... very sad, and a guy who I used to work with. I'd partied with him at the bar many a time and eventually, after work some times. I saw him leave his family and shack up with women who would do coke with him and stuff. He got back with his family and I thought that was a very happy ending. He got hooked up with meth and soon thereafter, he hung himself. At the funeral, I discovered he had molested his own daughter.

That's what the fucking truth looks like, folks. It's not cause effect. You have to look at the full context of things. If you think that's psychobabble, it's not. I'm just so fucking far over your heads. Learn how to see the truth in stuff and quit blaming others for your miserable lives. Go help someone out. Go volunteer to Meals on Wheels or something. Get outta your negative heads.

Trying to discredit A.A. with this Orange-induced lunacy is... ludacris.

Good night kiddies.


  1. Way to go Boys and Girls of ST. You've managed to fall for the biggest bunch of skewed statistics to date. I find it absolutely stunning that you find AA full of shit, yet you fall for this kind of mindless spew. You're a testament to weak mindedness worldwide.
    You accuse those in AA of being weak minded lemmings. Believe me. Us lemmings have to stand in absolute awe at your ability to believe this plethora of misinformation.
    Please take a bow.
    You've really outdone yourselves this time.
    And they said it couldn't be done.

    I think they should consult their hero Stanton Peele for the answer to this one. I bet Peele wasn't half way through Psych 101 when he found the answer to this.

    Nobody can ever be held responsible for the mental instability of another human being.
    That's the first thing the Grief Counselors and Trauma Therapists will try to impress upon you when you are blamed for the cause of a suicide.
    "You are not responsible for the mental instability of another human being"

    There you have it in terms that the simpletons at ST can relate to.

    1). AA is People as opposed to a program. I still can't get that across at meetings. AA is a program. Meetings are groups of People.
    Of course in the mind of Speedy the behavior of the people in meetings makes Bill Wilson the asshole of the century.
    Maybe if Speedy hangs himself I'll let you guys blame me. It's a fair trade.
    Again!! Nobody can ever be held responsible for the suicide of another.
    Dare I say that Suicide is a result of a "Mental Illness" or would that be stepping over a line that I'm not qualified to step over?
    Oh wait!! Maybe the dead guy had a "Disease". It's the same thing. Right??

    2). Peeles answer would be based on Science.
    Science supersedes all. End of discussion. Science is the ultimate answer.
    In fact Science has been the answer to alcoholism all along.
    It's just teasing us by making us wait for an answer to this alcoholism for centuries now.
    Refer to Proverbs 23:29-35
    Not that I want to bring up the Bible other than to point out that this was written some 800 years B.C.
    So Science has had 3000 years to come up with an answer. Yet hasn't.
    But to the ST crowd. Science is still the ultimate answer.
    So again. Maybe my reference to The Bible will cause a few over at ST to step into the garage, close the door and start the car.
    FWIW, I know that 800 BC was only 2810 years ago but I said 3000 just to give MA a tidbit to latch onto when he points out my errors.
    Like said! It gives him a feeling of accomplishment where he really isn't accomplishing much else.

  2. Good points, Karl. Hope you enjoyed your bbq.

    MA asks why God waited till 1935 to help alkies. So He could wait another 75 years to help scientists?

    I'm learning about the difference between content (immediate local and personal) and context (including all conditions).

    Oh planes leaving.

  3. He didn't wait till 1935.
    Matt Talbot had it figured out 10 years before Wilson was born.
    Go figure.
    Besides. It wasn't God who was waiting till 1935.
    The answer was there the whole time.
    It just took that long before someone figured it out.
    Unless MA likes to think of God as bully who would kick the door in and shove his will down someones throat.
    He's not.

  4. An asian fellow named "TV" "Boombox" said, "中國人喜歡記分,但是美國人有更大得多的命名者。像大美國女人的命名者那樣的中國人。像大美國蠢驢那樣的中國人。Yaa!"

    I hear ya bro. I'm down with the brown too.

  5. My translator says that the Asian is upset with AA because AA makes your penis smaller.
    Probably the same beef that MA and Speedy have with AA but won't admit it.
    Not too sure about FTG though.

  6. 3 squares said, "亞洲人因AA 而心情鬱悶因為 AA 使你的陰莖變得更小。
    可能同樣的牛肉那 MA 和快迅有以 AA 但是將不承認它。
    不太關於 FTG 可是是一定的。

    yup, pretty much what Cuda says. I've not had that problem.

  7. It's interesting that the people that go to AA 3 times in their lives have seen more filth and corruption than I ever have. In the same manner they accuse AA of making you have a small penis like a Chinese man.
    I just don't see it. Yet they swear it's true.

  8. Yeah, and then you've got those anti/XAers that have been to 1000s of meetings... went there for 19 years before they finally said enough's enough.

    How can you be to 1000s of meetings or 19 years of meetings and not be part of what you're bitching and pissing about?

    I got back from a meeting tonight here in Virginia and a guy shared about how his "sponsor" told him "For the first 2 years, go to discussion and speaker meetings and don't say anything." This fuckstick was bragging about what a hard ass his fuckhole sponsor was/is. I was thinking, "So, did you tell him to go finger fuck his asshole?" But I didn't.

    Some fucksticks really are in a cult. They make A.A. a cult, but A.A. doesn't do that shit. Read the fucking book yourself and do what it says. Why do some "sponsors" tell people what to do instead of showing them what you did? That's the only real sponsorship.

  9. Wang Chung up there says that Alcoholics are like Village People, but they forget to hang around. Yeah, whatever floats your dragon is fine by me

  10. @ Karl,

    "Way to go Boys and Girls of ST. You've managed to fall for the biggest bunch of skewed statistics to date. I find it absolutely stunning that you find AA full of shit, yet you fall for this kind of mindless spew. You're a testament to weak mindedness worldwide.
    You accuse those in AA of being weak minded lemmings. Believe me. Us lemmings have to stand in absolute awe at your ability to believe this plethora of misinformation.
    Please take a bow.
    You've really outdone yourselves this time.
    And they said it couldn't be done."

    Okay Karl, Let's just put the "biggest bunch of skewed statistics to date" aside.

    Is there some other information available that I should rely on in order to figure out if AA is right for me?

    "Nobody can ever be held responsible for the mental instability of another human being.

    Nobody in AA is ever held accountable for the mental instability they encourage. AA is responsible for nothing and is therefor irresponsible. When you guys stop selling your cult/product to hospitals... then you will no longer be responsible. Right now you're just taking advantage of vulnerable people so that you can spread your sicko religion. People get hurt in the process, and you throw your hands up and say, "We're not responsible."

    "You accuse those in AA of being weak minded lemmings. Believe me. Us lemmings have to stand in absolute awe at your ability to believe this plethora of misinformation."

    It's funny how you accuse us of being weak minded lemmings for "believing" that we don't believe what you believe... Nice twist on that one. That's classic AA mindfuck right there!

  11. I'm gonna give my input here because I assume Karl has better things to do tonight.

    Donald says, "Is there some other information available that I should rely on in order to figure out if AA is right for me?"

    Well, let's assume you never heard of A.A. Work with me here; do you have a problem with booze? Do you want to quit for good and all? Do you think you might be a real alcoholic? Can you stay stopped on your own power and/or can you drink a couple of drinks and stop abruptly... time after time? If not, you may want to try A.A., which is a spiritual solution and you will need to be open to some concept of God. It's up to you bud. Either you're gonna do this A.A. stuff or you're not. The ball is in your court and you are responsible. We're not the only show in town. If you can keep yourself sober with human aid, good thoughts, rational thought, love thy neighbor, pharmaceuticals, etc., do it. If A.A. is not your thing, that's fine. Find something else and good luck.

    Donald says, "Nobody in AA is ever held accountable for the mental instability they encourage. AA is responsible for nothing and is therefor irresponsible. "

    Waa. A.A. is not responsible for my sobriety. Outside of that, I AM responsible for finding out if A.A. will work for me or not. If not, I vote with my feet and don't look back. Why? Because I got other shit to do. I've got to go out and find a way to live sober or be an eternal fuckup. Oh, but I need to concern myself with A.A.'s responsibility! Right!

    Donald says, "When you guys stop selling your cult/product to hospitals... then you will no longer be responsible. "

    What? Which hospitals are we selling A.A. to? Are we selling the 7 dollar Big Books to them? Have we formed an A.A. ward at the Acme Medical Center? What the hell are you talking about... selling A.A. to hospitals? A doctor/nurse/staff takes in a drunk and spin dries them. They call a member of A.A. to come visit the patient... if they're lucky. A couple of guys come to visit the "prospect" to see if they're interested in finding out if they need help with the booze and if they want to give A.A. a whirl. That's it! That's called CPC work! What the fuck are you talking about selling? You've been slurping up Agent Oranges' gack for too long. Wipe the jizz off your chin, son.

  12. Donald says, "Right now you're just taking advantage of vulnerable people so that you can spread your sicko religion. People get hurt in the process, and you throw your hands up and say, "We're not responsible."

    What the fuck are you going off about now? We're one informed and recovered drunk helping out another drunk. Why the fuck would we fuck with vulnerable people? And we are fucking responsible. If we don't set out to help others but continue to harm others, it don't fucking work, we get drunk and we die. But we don't die. We are sober and we are helping others and we are fucking responsible. You're all just a bunch of atheist pussy farts. You are so bent that you don't have faith and you think you're humanists. You think that if you do goodie good things, you should get along better in life. But there's never enough to feed your egos. You see that it rains on a dogs ass just as it rains in your own fields.

    I've been to meetings all over my state, my country and throughout the world and I don't see any of the shit you anti/XAers claim.

    Donald says, "It's funny how you accuse us of being weak minded lemmings for "believing" that we don't believe what you believe... Nice twist on that one."

    No, dickhead. Karl said that YOU claim that WE are the weak minded lemmings. Get your shit straight.

    Donald says, "Nice twist on that one. That's classic AA mindfuck right there!"

    Karl said, ""You accuse those in AA of being weak minded lemmings. Believe me. Us lemmings have to stand in absolute awe at your ability to believe this plethora of misinformation."

    Put down the crack pipe for a minute and read... think... think some more... then shut the hell up because you're an idiot.

    Go back to your fucking hole. Fucking lemming.

  13. "Okay Karl, Let's just put the "biggest bunch of skewed statistics to date" aside.

    Is there some other information available that I should rely on in order to figure out if AA is right for me"?

    I'll field this one now that I'm home.
    AA is a spiritual program of action that involves God and 12 steps. I'm sorry that you and your type sit in meetings and try to make it something else. It's not! But the fight to make AA what we want it to be marches on.
    Good luck. AA is AA and the meat and potatoes of AA doesn't happen in meetings. It happens in one on one contact with an alcoholic helping another alcoholic.
    It's not about what AA can do for me. It's about what I can do for the alcoholic who is still sick.
    So, get over yourself.
    Are you interested in God and 12 steps toward a spiritual awakening??
    If you answered "Yes" to this question, you're in.
    If you answered "No" but continue in AA, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
    Personally I won't be caught dead in a club meeting which you and your friends deem to be AA. It's usually a bunch of swinging dicks with an AA sign hanging above them. It only represents a fragment of the fellowship.
    Unfortunately you and your buddies have chosen to exploit this as all there is to AA.
    Sad that you and your type choose to focus on the thorns amongst the roses.
    Your half empty mentality has caused your mind to slam shut.
    In the process it trapped the old perception of AA inside when it did.
    You're just flat out dead wrong when you broad brush the entirety of AA with your beliefs.
    Pretty narrow if you were to ask me.
    AA is AA and AA meetings are AA meetings.
    I'm sorry you've confused the two.

  14. Hey Donald Duck-fucker. Watch your fucking mouth in here and my name is McGowdog.

    Get it right or I'll send your shit to the trash like the asian spam.

    If you want to make an argument about what is bad about A.A., do so with tact, originality, and truth. Not Orange-induced rhetoric.

  15. "Karl said, ""You accuse those in AA of being weak minded lemmings. Believe me. Us lemmings have to stand in absolute awe at your ability to believe this plethora of misinformation.""

    You got me there. Touché!

    The last time someone called me "Donald Duck-fucker" was in kindergarten.

    Okay... since you are so offended, I'll call you McGowdog like you asked... sorry about that. I forgot how super sensetive, thin skinned, and easily hurt you guys can be... It really shows in your post. It amazes me that you could be so cruel as to cut and paste personal information of such magnitude and that you could be so heartless by making fun of someone who has had issues with attempted suicide.

    "You... are a certified nutjob. You are/were socialized in A.A. You are a drama queen and should seek outside help."

    I don't care if you disagree or not... Suicide is serious business... people get hurt... What you did was stupid, reckless, and self-centered to the extreme.

    Maybe you were right about yourself after all.

  16. What I did? I hurt somebody's feelings who chooses to go to an antiAA hate blog for therapy and expects to get nothing but lollypops and blowjobs?

    To say that an organization caused you to want to commit suicide is not taking a very proactive stance in your own life. Huddling together with other haters helps that person how? What kind of therapy is this? "Let us love you until you can love yourself?" Maybe that slogan works for anti/XAers. Tell you what... you can have that one.

    "Suicide is serious business"? Really? Some of you are just as interested in the the field of "alcoholism". It's a business too. A very lucrative one for some. But we in A.A. have a solution for the booze.

    If you're struggling with suicide, maybe call 9-1-1. But bashing A.A. doesn't seem like a very constructive solution.

  17. Donald Duck, get the name right.

    "Okay... since you are so offended, I'll call you McGowdog like you asked... sorry about that."

    I told you that I won't take your insults now. You can go over to your Stinkin Thinkin blog or your EXPOSE A.A. blog where you spin stories about a guy who talks about fucking his mother and telling everyone in the meeting what positions he'd like to get her in and come up with slogans like, "It's Alcoholics Anonymous, not Muther-Fuckers Anonymous", and "One Mom at a Time".

    You are the sick fuck around here. You are a fucking liar too. That sick story of yours is bullshit and gratuitous antiAA/XA bashing and it's an insult to those who have been raped and incested.

    Keep spinning lies and made up stories about A.A. though. It keeps you out of the mainstream. Now, I've gotta go out into the real world. You be good now.

  18. In doing 12th Step work, I've had two experience with people who were talking suicide.

    About ten years ago my friend Ron & I went to see this guy who called us. We'd worked with him before, but this time he drunk and talking suicide, which I take seriously. So we go to see this guy and he is sitting in this apartment littered with empty vodka bottles in a chair with cigarette burns in it with an overflowing ashtray next to it. He is going on about how nobody cares and how much of a piece of shit he is and he might as well take himself out of the equation. We talked with him a while, but he persisted in talking suicide, so Ron called 911 and said we had a subject who was very intoxicated and suicidal. They came and took him away and he came to the next day in five point restraints with no idea how got where he was and spent the next five days shaking off that drunk restrained. When he was released, he had to walk home and when he got the bill for the ambulance ride, boy was he pissed! He called us up and called us every name in the book, but I tell you what, he never called us threatening to kill himself again.

    The other experience is more recent. Someone who had been sober for a while by just sitting in meetings called me up. They were struggling with the obsession to drink and to this person, it made more sense to blow their head off rather than give up their "sobriety." I told them to go get some booze and drink it. I told them that they had a better chance of recovering from drinking than from a blown off head.That's all they needed was permission to drink. It saved their life and got them to the place of asking "What do I have to do?"

    A.A. didn't bring either of these people to the brink of suicide, alcoholism did. I'd like to see how MA or Speedy or Stanton Peele would have handled those situations.

  19. Thanks for relating a truthful experience Jim.

    I just recently went rounds with some of them over there over this article. I just couldn't let their comments go without a response.

    As far as MA, Speedy, ftg, they don't have to give a response. They set the topic up and let one or all of their 35 minions knock it down.

    I had a 12 step call a while back and the guy talked about suicide a bit and wanted to talk to someone about how his wife had died a year or two ago, his drinking escalated and he's sad. Well of course he is. He's pretty drunk too.

    I don't know if this is what you call a situational drinker or maybe he's a hard drinker turned potential alkie, etc. But I tried to steer him towards meeting up with a couple of us to talk about his drinking or even going to an A.A. meeting and he wants no part of that.

    I told him that total abstinence from booze is all I had to offer him if that's what he needed.

    He showed me no indication that he wanted to put the booze up and I told him to seek some help for his depression.

    I think I've talked with him before. He seems to show up about every few months and I think he's just lonely and wants someone to talk to, IDK.

    I think he's got a hard time seeing his condition with relation to alcohol, what that means for him, and that we offer him a particular solution that may show him hope. There's got to be something better than just drinking yourself to death.