Thursday, October 6, 2011


Yup. This topic... again.

It was brought up by my good friend at the Thursday night meeting tonight. I was called on to share... because my bro always calls on me... and I was brilliant... in my mind. Srsly though... I had something to say. Two... make that three folks thanked me for my share after the meeting.

I, as well as several others, complimented the chair person for a good topic and a good meeting.

But... someone chastised my share. Someone who is really a good fairly long-time spiritual friend and fellow warrior on the path.  She dissed my mention of my cyber-life and quest to find truth and do battle with fellow skeptics, atheists, agnostics, anti/XAers in general... on the internet.  She had a spiel about how she hates computers to begin with and how ridiculous it is to engage in some argument with a skeptic over the internet when there's a whole world right in front of you to deal with.

She certainly has her point, I'm sure.  It's also so not like her to cut someone else down... in any way.  It's so like her husband to do that though.  I like them both.  I really do.  They are way better than me in every way.  They are sober 20 + years, have two beautiful children... etc.  It is their porch where everybody goes to do fellowship, steps, etc.  They are the organizers of the best A.A. meeting in town, and they have taken on ICYPAA and turned it into one of the best step-doing chapters in maybe the whole country.  Doubt me on that?  Come check out their Friday or Sunday meeting and see for yourself.

But, laying that aside, I gave them a peek at what I've found in cyber-world.  The real truth and reality of what we in A.A. are judged as... from all sides.  We get to see what our enemies think about us.  Good bad of indifferent, I'm told we owe a debt of gratitude to our detractors.  This is so not seen down on the group level... street level.  At least, I have yet to see it.  What this is about is the fact that there are a huge faction of folks that just flat out refuse to meet us even half way on what it means to consider the spiritual approach. 

There isn't a chapter in the A.A. book about the atheist who says, "Well fuck you, your A.A. [g]od™, your steps, your book, your founders, and your meeting."  Our current retort to that is obviously, "Well fuck you back.  Why don't you just go away and stay away from here?"

Face to face, down on the street, I have yet to meet the anti/XAer with the balls to come up and say, "Fuck you A.A. people.  You are wrong.  God isn't the only way.  God isn't the way period.  Your [g]od™ and your religion and your cult is destroying the lives of others, children, women, and non-white old conservative Hitler-loving men across the planet. 

But, let's not get dramatic here.  You know what I'm saying?  There's a world out there who seems to want to meet us half way, knowingly or not, on what self-indulgent middle-of-the-road bullshit there is out there.

To folks who come into A.A., get the spiritual gift of surrender, courage, acceptance, decision, and harmonious action, you get a pass on this topic.  This has nothing to do with you whatsoever.  I'm talking about the person who's been sober in A.A. 8+ years, is burned out and confused about whether they're even alky or not, is confused about their ability to obtain and hold power, is seemingly chronically depressed... and just seems to be missing something.  Either that or they're just playing small and in fear of stepping up to the plate.  I think they lack faith and/or realization of what it really means to be an alky.  But who knows?

I'm talking about the person who maybe a true atheist or they may be just so clogged up with and sick of having another's form of God so shoved down their throat... that they cannot nor will not submit.  There are also abuses done upon others' from those who do spiritual manipulation to try to control and exploit another.  If you are spending your time trying to constantly trim another or corral them into your way of thinking... are you maybe the predator here?  I agree with the anti/XAers that the whole dynamic of "sponsor" makes this very possible and perhaps prevalent.

Part of my share was the notion that there are skeptics out there... and that I'm not one, but I should at least acknowledge them and respect them... and to at least appeal them to skepticize this... maybe "Under God's protection and care with complete abandon" is real.  What if it was true?  Would I be willing to go for that deal?

If not, I say choose God is nothing and go from there.  Do God is nothing and see what comes of it.  The battle should be over.  You have nothing to fight, no one to oppose.  But what about the orthodox steppers and internet-skeptics?  They'll surely be there to point their fingers at you when you fail and get drunk and say, "See, maybe you'll see the light now.  Come in, get a sponsor, put the cotton in your mouth, take on a coffee commitment... yada yada yada."

They can, in essence, run you away from A.A.  Gee, I wonder how many folks have been chased away from Jesus due to born-again Southern Baptist nominal-Christian zealots and Jesus Freaks.


  1. Good post Patrick,
    I know jack shit about cars so I didn't have anything to say regarding your Chrysler.

    My thoughts on this post is that These folks sound like solid AA's, my question for them is why they are transcribing their belief systems onto your current experience.

    I also challenge your statement "they are way better than me in every way". Under God's eyes we are all equally worthless. LOL

    I used to compare my insides to others outsides. I never measure up. I don't do that anymore.I'm cool with who I am. If you are comparing yourself to other people, to quote a brilliant therapist. STOP IT!

  2. "why they are transcribing their belief systems onto your current experience?"

    That is classic.

    I uttered this phrase to my nephew this morning and my sister-in-law shook her head at me.

  3. Are you saying that people that don't agree with the AA system are atheists? You may not be saying that but that's what I'm coming away with. There are plenty of people that stay sober, don't struggle with one day at a time and believe in a higher power. Just like there are people that believe in a higher power and don't have a problem abusing substances. And yes, there are people that don't believe in the 12-step system but are atheists, too and stay sober.

    I think maybe you are simply referring to people that don't want to attend AA BECAUSE of the higher power belief. That is an entirely different thing. Usually AA members will tell those folks that they can believe that a chair, or their father or their kid is their higher power.

    It sounds like you are getting burnt out of the AA meetings. I think that is a good thing. I personally believe that AA is not keeping you sober. Maybe your higher power is helping and you are doing the rest but it is not the folks in AA. They are stinking thinkers with judgmental group-think attitude. Of course that is my opinion. I firmly believe in whatever works for you.

    But I hate the way AA encourages the "one day at a time" thing. Really? You should be sober because he feels good, GREAT actually. Have you noticed? Or are you so mired in these meetings, sitting around staring at somber, judgmental people?

    In AA you are surrounded by people that are one-day-at-a-timing-it, too. It's not any way to live.

    Being sober is WONDERFUL. How do you feel? Admit it. Not drinking is GREAT. You can smell the flowers, the air, remember the wonderful thing that happen to you.

    No day is perfect. Some days are horrifying for everyone. But if you drink because of it then you are only making a very day so much worse and you feel bad about yourself.

    Feel good about yourself. You deserve it. You are staying sober because you are an awesome person.

  4. Thank you Heidi... and welcome. You bring up a lot of good points here.

    If you stick around and look more specifically at what Jim, Rob, Joe, Colter, Karl aka Cuda, Tony and myself believe in... you'll see that we don't buy into the day at a time bs.

    We are sober. I'll bet that they'll be sober tomorrow as well, meeting or no meeting. I've been down to a meeting a month or two meetings a month lately. I recently have been going to as many as a meeting or two a week lately because I can. I've found the time off work and got my tired ass out of bed to go do it. I recently had a double-over and short change at work. This means I go in for my 8 hour shift from 3:30pm to 11:30pm (paid lunch, nice huh?), then do the graveyard 11:30pm to 7:30 am shift, then go home to sleep, then back for my regular 3:30pm to 11:30pm shift.

    Now... where's my meeting times in that? I come home exhausted and too tired to sleep. Guess what I got to do on my vacation day and Columbus holiday? Sleep? No. I got to go up to Denver with my wife, hotel it and we screamed our balls and tits off at the Foo Fighters Wasting Light Tour. Fuck yeah! Oh, btw. I've got laryngitis and am sick as a mutt, but coffee and Mucinex got me through. The only reason why I didn't get to work my normal Monday night shift or the mandatory graveyard shift the night before is because it pays 2.5 time and I lack senority. But tonight, I'll probably be back to double-time short-change duty.

    I go to A.A. because I know of an A.A. that ain't bullshit.

    I go to A.A. to do A.A. because it helps me seek God.

    We don't fuck around with door knobs here. We really don't. Sorry about the venacular. Just picture David Grohl when we cuss. We love life and get off on it, believe me!

    I mean not to sound judgemental against the atheists... for I agree that the religious zealots and nominal Christian self-proclaimed Jesus Freaks have made an atheist out of many a decent man.

    A.A. is not for washing your soul and getting to heaven. But it has prepared some of us to at least look at our own mortality and to consider the possibility that we might not die as soon as we had wished. We might somehow live in agony and pain... and that we might just want to smell the roses along the way after all.

    We know all the Stinkin-Thinkin lingo here. You know what I'm talkin' about right? www.stinkin-thinkin.com and Orange Papers via www.orange-papers.org ?

    We know there's much bullshit in A.A. But we have experience in the A.A. steps. Do you? Have you ever done a 4th step, 5th stepped it, found some stuff in 6 and 7 that you were perhaps holding onto, became willing to turn loose of something you now found objectionable in yourself and got free of it? If not, this site is just not for you.

    You might be a victim. I no longer will be a victim no matter what. I believe that my troubles are of my own making... period. That to me is a great statement of hope and if you or they were my problem, then I'd be fucked. I could just say fuck them I'm going home. But I don't go home. I go to them and try to get them back. I try to get even... then go for broke. I try to dominate and own them. Or even worse... I try to get their approval.

    When I can truly turn loose of this game, I can get free. I am free. Anyone? Do I not look free?

    Oh my God! Gr8 concert. FF was on stage for no less than 3 fucking hours! Fuckin'. A!

  5. Do I sound like a victim? Not for nothing but really? LOL

    I heard stinkin' thinking in AA. I have never been to the websites that you mentioned. I have no interest. I have no interest in going to AA any longer, either.

    Yes, I was in AA and NA many, many years ago. None of us are perfect but I found the members to mostly be tormented or depressed types that were stuck in a rut. And I have been to hundreds and hundreds of meetings in city and towns in a few states.

    I don't care if you are an atheist, Jesus-freak, spiritualist, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, well you get the picture. If you want to believe in something that is great but believe in yourself, too. Above all don't believe in a bunch of people that need to go to a meeting to stay sober. Sobriety is far too much fun as I noticed you have found. LOL

    Good for you all. I'm glad you are enjoying yourselves.

    I have zero interest in the politics of AA, the biography of Bill W. All of it. I just want people to know that they will NOT die if they stop going to meetings. They will not drink if they don't want to. And why would you want to?

    Thanks. I didn't want to get into an argument. I actually "talked" to you very briefly on another forum and that's how I got here. I have a blog, too, but not about substance abuse. I left that all behind a long time ago.

    Hugs to all of you.

  6. No, I wasn't calling you a victim, but appealing to the anti/XAers as to why the book approaches recovery the way it does and how it works for us if we give it a go.

    You are an anti/XAer BTW. This is who the Stinkin-thinkin site was geared towards. If you want to hate on A.A. as an obvious expert who has been there and done that, It's a place you may want to check out.

    But they will not only tell you why A.A. is a religious evil cult, but also why you should run from there, take as many with you that will hear you, and develop a true hatred for it as It's the current scourge of the planet.

    Believe me or not, that's pretty much what It's about.

    BTW, did you see no value in doing steps?

  7. This comment has been removed by the author.

  8. (Sorry about the deleted post, my mind was working faster than my fingers)

    Heidi, you will find that the folks who contribute to this site, are not dependent on meetings. If I never attended another meeting again I would be fine and remain sober. One day at a time is just another mindless cliche that has been taken out of context. I am sober for good and for all.

    You wrote, "I just want people to know that they will NOT die if they stop going to meetings. They will not drink if they don't want to."

    We part ways on this, the alcoholic described in the Big Book Will ALWAYS drink again. This idea of Choice, is gone. If you want to get into a step one debate I'm game, however, I bet I change your mind about as quick as you do mine.

    Also, consider checking out the Stinkin Thinking site, it may be more to your liking.

  9. Sorry folks. I am not into sites that bash AA or groups of people that do, either. I just don't think that the steps work and I think The Big Book is bunk. I firmly believe picking up is a choice. I have no interest in debating anything with anyone. That was never my intention.

    Have a great one, y'all, but I won't be back again. Nothing that anyone said upset me at all. We are just not on the same page, and although that is okay, I know that debate won't change anyone's mind. I have a life to go live as do you all. Best wishes! :-D

  10. Well if that's your experience, then who can argue it?

    I commend you for being a free-lance recovered person and enjoyer of life.

    If choice is a 50/50 deal, and if I've not drank booze nor got high on drugs for about 7 years and 9 months and counting... then I might be able to say I've chose not to cheat on my wife for 12 and a half years and counting.

    That's pretty good. I've not wanted to drink, drug, or screw strange... but that's good. I chose good.

  11. My guess is it is a bit over 8 years for me. I'm not sure because I don't count. For ME, counting gives far too much weight to the substance and in my mind makes it seem like something that I am barely holding onto. It doesn't seem like you are counting either, though. But hey, I'm all for what works! LOL

    But it is always good to choose good. I LOVE it. LOL

  12. Well I do count, but not for me. It's for them. It's for the guy having a hard time making it past 4 or 5 or six.

    Go to a meeting sometime and tell them you got 12 hours. They'll be on you like the Cable Guy on a rib bone.

    Oh, and I like cake... but only once per year. If there's only 4 or 6 people in your group, It's not too bad. But 30+ groups who celebrate every month and every 24 hours, problem.

    I'm not in A.A. to get diabetes.

    Owning your time and voicing your condition... being an alcoholic... is about accountability and It's a message to your ego.

    Oh, and I love thinking and talking and hearing about booze. Booze booze booze! It has no power over me.