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Friday, October 28, 2011

Who/What is/was Stinkin'-Thinkin' at Wordpress?





MA
























Orange



































A fellow poster/author here asked what is this ST we refer to from time to time.  I answered him in a comment and decided to make that two-part comment the current post topic.  So... my current view of our friends across cyberworld...



They are technically the reason for our existence here on this blog... our reason for our banning from Sober Recovery when you get right down to it. I don't blame anybody for that fact... it just is.  Add: Z and one unmentionable girl-troll were the ones who baited us and brought about my banning and some soon followed me as a seeming stance on principle and some have joined me here and have been made authors and part/administrators of the blog.  But... they have their antonomy and have since recovered from the purpose of the blog and have no axe to grind.  But they are always welcome here as they know.  I'm quite sure those minions from ST and perhaps Orange Papers and elsewhere infiltrate http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism on a regular basis and flood the topics with anti/XA rhetoric with a cycling bunch of new users/trolls and stir the pot from what's left of that sickened and soft-petered recovery site... no offense, just a notion I have.  No proof of this, just a notion.


It started off with me having some stuff brought to my attention. We'd post away at sober recovery and some snarky smart-asses were mocking our posts and bashing our dedication to spreading the A.A. message via the program outlined in the A.A. book... and answering questions from a few that dare attempt to follow that simple path.


I came onto this site called "DonewithAA" at wordpress which became "Stinkin'-Thinkin' dot com and the rest is history. There was MA, aka Mark... an Adolph Hitler mustache superimposed onto our beloved Bill W-wearin' author, ftg aka friendthegirl aka Ilse, and of course Speedy.


As we responded to the at times welcomed notoriety, it was soon apparent what they were up to; bait us into anger, they'd then sit back and watch us retaliate in anger, then they'd point their bony fingers at us as being unserene crazy mean-spirited assholes. As we whipped their asses at debate at every turn, they tried to "project" their own weak techniques and accusations at us... with words like "gas lighting", "red-herring", bait-and-switch, ad hominems, strawman arguments... etc... just a bunch of stuff they've burped up from Agent Orange via Orange Papers.


Then... as time went on, they amassed a bunch of anti/XAers ("anti AAers" from the start and "ex-AAers"... experts who been there done that and are now more qualified and more sober than you and I and cannot hear any arguments for or against from you or me because they are just frankly better than us... thus my abbreviation "anti/XAer") who were downright nasty to me, RobB, Jim, TonyJ, Karl aka Cuda aka PinkCuda... and they were somewhat cordial to Joe I think.


But the bottom line is they have been honking on and on about being anti-censorship, welcoming of debate, and open-minded to looking at both sides. But what we’ve found quickly is that they hate anything pro-A.A., hate actual debate, refuse to accept any evidence against their and Agent Orange half-truths and outright lies, etc. They built a site around it and built a community of folks who frankly get off on trying to put us and bring us down. They search tirelessly for ways of spinning anything recovery or A.A. related to make the A.A. fellowship to look like a bunch of tyrant white male sex abusing raping 13th stepping sick old bastards who want to control and abuse its poor poor victims who get sent to A.A. or come searching A.A. for a gleam of hope.


They are endlessly finding ways to reiterate and add to claims from Agent Orange about what a sex-crazed belladonna induced lunatic that Bill W was and they have an equally vicious character assassination for Dr Bob and anything A.A. We all know these guys were never saints. They even said so.


They go on tirelessly to reiterate Agent Oranges’ claims that A.A. has a success rate of 5% or less and that doing nothing will lead to the same spontaneous remission as the aforementioned program. They spout the good works of many other mostly secular recovery organizations but spend no time actually directing people to how and where these programs are doing better works within the annuls of recovery… because frankly they are too busy bashing A.A. and bullying its inhabitants.


Do I sound dramatic? Well… being the site is temporarily gone… I have not much proof. Some of my peeps will shed light on the accuracy of my findings/experiences with these folks.



I’ve had an on again/off again/on again positive relationship with FTG and MA. I do not claim to be their equal in writing techniques, dedication to their cause, or their ability to grow a huge following. They whipped our asses in that regard. But we hang in here and my/our main purpose for this here blog is to have a place to hang your hat and speak your piece. I don’t claim to keep this place free of censorship. If you come in here and call me names and get nasty with me, I’m gonna censor that. Everyone who knows me knows that I can get nasty, mean, and flat out rude to those who cross me. I’d like to think I’ve been baited and falsely judged from time to time, but whatever. Don’t recall… water under the bridge, right? If you threaten me, I’ll answer the threat back. If you threaten one of my colleagues in recovery… or MA and ftg on here, I’ll send you away as best I can. There’s no room for that shit.


I feel bad for the crap MA and ftg got into with an irate and perhaps dangerous poster. I don’t know both sides of the story, but this guy seemed to find an actual address for ftg and perhaps threatened her physically. She and those at ST could have probably fought this guy right into incarceration if they/she wanted to. This was not the cause for the site to temporarily/permanently shut down. MA and ftg were looking to take a break and head in other directions for now. It’s just coincidence. But I feel for them and wish them well.


We actually have a common goal. We want to help see that drunks and addicts and victims of those afflictions get the help they need. We see the path to that end differently. To the other “minions” of the site who not only see our path as wrong but also leave no room for our worthiness, I say, “Good day.” But something strange happened between some of those minions and I… they started to see I wasn’t such a bad guy after all. They just see me as mislead and think I’m too smart to be snowed-over by the A.A. program. To them I say, “Come see the A.A. that I know. As far as MOTR stuff and all the bad A.A. that’s out there… and the knuckleheads that make such a mess out of trying to control people and the poor folks who truly are in need of and want help and willing to do something about it… I understand that most of A.A. is a huge mess. But even still, it works for some and provides something for others that we cannot explain.


A.A. should be totally voluntary and the courts/judicial system, healthcare industry etc., should let some of us explain what A.A. can do and cannot do and how it is to be 100% voluntary and how it’s not just a place to dump criminals to be punished and a place where children can be babysat and raised. A.A. is for drunks who need and want the help that A.A. has to offer.


It works pretty good for me and that’s that.


http://goodbye.stinkin-thinkin.com


Goodbye ST. Go well.
An aside for Gunthar:




That's right. Stanton is a former board member of MM and a former MM apologist. Sorry for my previous claims. Apologist and A.A. accuser. So he no longer actively supports Audrey, but wants to make it clear that it's probably A.A.s fault for her drinking too much due to the dangers of... abstinence? Does abstinence lead to binging or something? I thought binging was for underage drinkers. I'm confused.









One more thing about abstinence... as some anti/XAers are claiming abstinence out there... but not all. It's ok to be abstinent... so long as you don't do it in A.A. To do so in A.A. is cultish and harmful to others... aka causes more harm than good. Oh, and don't preach now. It's no fair to preach at anybody these days!









In Stanton's defense, I understand what he's saying; the woman who drove drunk and killed people is at fault, not A.A. and not MM and not the car and not the wine. But... he believes that had she been able to voice her situation freely and without guilt... that she was drinking to excess and that she needed help... like perhaps a ride somewhere so she didn't drive drunk... the harm would have been removed. As O'Reilly says, the sober AAer would not have driven drunk anyway.









What's the upshot of the story for me? The founder of MM drove drunk and killed two people. So... is she special? The anti/XAer and secular type folks want to bewail the institution of A.A. and its claim to spirituality and any talk of "disease". But they're willing to agree that folks like Audrey might be different that others. For some moderation works and for some, not so. Well you can't have it both ways. Either there are physical ramifications or there are not. You want us to believe that it's all culture and behavior. I think it's more complicated than that... as in perhaps physical as well as something perhaps physiological. Pretty much what A.A. has been saying since 1935.



36 comments:

  1. Stinkin Thinkin: gone (or at least going) but not forgotten, and certainly not missed by many, including myself.
    The site could have been a responsible critic of the bad side of AA (the side that every organization has), but instead chose to be a mud-slinging, hysterical, and sensationalist equivalent of 19th century "yellow journalism".
    That says volumes about its hosts and supportive followers, but you already know that!
    Good and time article, McGow!
    Ralph

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  2. Hey Ralph! If you had an anonymous gmail account, email me and you can be an author here. It's slow though... as you know.

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  3. Slow is not necessarily bad - like the tortoise and the hare, right? Who has just won this race?
    Yeah, ST had all the "techno-tricks" and glitter one could ask for, but what good did all those do them? I warned them about 18 months ago about smearing identifiable individuals (in the matter of Gunthar's photo of a truck belonging to an AA supporter), but got attacked myself just for saying so.
    I have just posted at Tony J.'s "Stinkin Thinkin Revealed" site my own obituary for ST and its hosts; read that post if you would, and just remember to avoid "Ilse" and "Marks" errors and you will be just fine!

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  4. Oh yeah. That site at

    http://stinkin-thinkin-revealed.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-im-here.html#comments

    Too bad, but I haven't heard from Tony J since way back then... January or February? Wow.

    Well, your assessment of their closing may be spot on... but from my spot, I'd just have to say I haven't heard both sides of the story.

    That group of anti/XA folks they brought together will still be around at places like Orange, Leaving A.A., and some xxpAA or exposeAA place... the later being a place you have to register to in order to view. And what do they do at these places? Right. Sit back and clench their teeth at A.A. Nothing's changed.

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  5. Cordial to Joe? Yeah, I guess. I never got into pissing contests with any of them, and actually had a few civil discussions with FTG and MA. I hope they stick around and watch this site (I have a hunch they will) and pitch in when they have something to say.

    My thoughts toward ST lean toward a site that may have had good intentions but got out of hand. Like you said, Patrick, we had a common goal. Some of the more intelligent ones over there may not have agreed with AA, but that's ok. The problem arose due to the nature of the internet. There are lot of morons out there who love to see their opinions in print and sites like ST will attract the worst of them.

    A web site or blog can eventually collapse under the weight of it's stupidity, and I think that's what happened to ST. I don't blame MA or FTG (or any of the rest of the honest brokers) for shutting the thing down. It was out of control. What started out as a message got lost in a sea of blathering.

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  6. LOL....hey guys. What's shakin'.

    I've tried to resign from the debating society but I'm doing well and it seems like you guys are too. Good deal !!

    But this is pretty funny to me.

    As Ralph noted in his comment on the st-revealed blog, this thought is probably realavent.

    "Anti-AA has no real purpose other than being against AA. It is not a program of recovery. If you can't stop or moderate the anti-AA's have nothing to offer you. It is a place where you can go and feel superior to people who have severe drug, alcohol and mental problems and pat yourself on the back for not being 'one of those people'. If you happen to be 'one of those people' you'll do better in your local AA meeting."

    As far as being threatened (assuming it's true, they are drama queens over there) you reap what you sow. Maybe if they stopped poking crazy people with sticks they'd avoid that kind of stuff ? Just a thought.

    Sure there are problems in AA and sure people can and should openly address them. But scapegoating a group of people is an ugly thing. No good evern comes of it. It's an avoidance of mature thinking and behavior.

    I understand the anti-AA's are sick people and unhappy at some basic level. I just don't think AA had much to do with it.

    Maybe they've started to realize this and will move on with their lives and start to grow, or maybe they're like terrorists who call a cease fire to regroup and rearm. Either way is fine by me. My AA groups have not only remained unaffected by the anti-AA movement, almost no one has even heard of it or been on that st site.

    This battle with the anti-AA's has been, for me, much like any other battle I fight. Be it a resentment or character defect. It's very much just me and my thoughts and feelings that are involved and not the 'world at large'.

    Still, I met you guys and that's a plus. I'm not complaining. Just reflecting a bit.

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  7. Hey Guys,
    I too have resigned from the debating society. Lately I've had a lot of irons in the fire, and just hadn't much time to do any on-line recovery, debate, etc.

    As for ST's demise. I'm not surprised. It was only a matter of time. Anything based in fear & hate will eventually die. I won't miss it, but then again, I've refrained from even lurking over there, much like I've refrained from lurking at SR. I did go over there to find some old posts of mine not long ago, but I didn't spend much time looking at the rest of the stuff.

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  8. Hey, McGow:
    The exposeAA site (Gunthar's attempt to emulate Stinkin Thinkin) that you spoke of has already gone down, leaving Massive's site to "carry the message".
    I don't expect that site to last too much longer either, due to the gadfly nature of its host (involved in Occupy LA, really?).
    Just be patient and persistent, like the tortoise, Pal!

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  9. I think it's back up. But I wouldn't be welcome there due to my proA.A. stance.

    These are the same folks who came up with a vid where some guy claimed he went to a meeting and some other guy who was sharing claimed that he had sexual thoughts about his own mother. Then you saw screen clips that said, "One Mom At A Time."

    I find that cheap and disgusting... and insensitive to true victims of rape and any other sexual abuse... including incest.

    The original site had all that... and was endorsed by Stanton Peele... so my view of his stock crashed to the floor right there.

    Now... if you want to talk about rape, guess where to want to stay well away from? That's right. The Occupyists. I'd heard they have 10 rapes in their midst. Not a very safe environment.

    I take the high road on my overall opinion on the work MA and ftg did. It was the minions that got nasty and abusive with us. I've since come to mutual respect with a few of them... though they thought I had hope to one day awaken from my A.A.-induced trance.

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  10. Hey, Mac:
    It didn't take me very long to recognize Stanton Peele as a quack, but I knew better than to say that over at Stinkin Thinkin - to those people there he is a demigod! Come to think of it, they regard him with the same reverence that they accuse AA members of having for Bill W.!
    As far as the Occupyists go, I regard them as no more than a bunch of worthless bums that should be fire-hosed out of their squalid encampments immediately, if not sooner! We have a few hundred of them in Rochester now, and I don't have to drive into the city to discover what the whole bunch of them are all about. Let's just hope that the forecasters are right, and we have another cold and snowy winter!
    Anyway, I hope that you and yours are all doing as well as possible in these mixed-up times!
    Ralph

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  11. Stanton Peele never endorsed the site. You are lying... again

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  12. Just to be sure you guys didn't miss the entire story...

    I was at a mixed AA/Al-anon meeting in Bellingham Massachusetts, somewhere around 2003.
    It was a big book study group with about 100 members. The way the meeting was conducted was that members would each take turns reading from the first 164 of the big book. If anyone wanted to they could raise their hand and speak. I forget exactly where we were in the book that night, but I do remember that I had invited my Mom in order that I may introduce her to Al-anon.
    Anyway, somewhere around the middle of the meeting a guy raised his hand... He stood up to speak (not required) and went into an extended rant about feelings he was having for his mother that he was having a hard time controlling. He told us all about how he would have liked to have sex with his mother, and went into detail about sexual positions and stuff. The entire audience sat with their mouths agape. Later I thought that it would have been appropriate to interrupt the guy and inform him that the meeting was for "alcoholics" anonymous, not "motherfuckers" anonymous.

    I have many stories like this... and they are all true. Like the time I went to the Sunday group dressed for church, a former sponsor sneered at me and said, "How's it going" I'll just say he called me Gunthar and retain my anonimity. (a few of us have been receiving some pretty odd emails recently) I said that I was doing fine, except I was having a bitch of a time quitting smoking. His answer was, "You are one fucked up alcoholic Gunthar... They next thing you know, you'll try to quit jerking off." Soon after that, at the Saturday evening group, a young man approached me with tears in his eyes. "Can I talk to you" he said. I went outside with him and lit a smoke... "What's going on" I said. The kid burst into tears crying,"I'm bicurious and I was wondering if you are too?"

    I've seen alot of disgusting behavior in the halls of alcoholics anonymous. You can call it lies, but I know the truth.

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  13. No, you are lying. In fact, it looks like Stanton Peele had his name/endorsement taken from wiki and replaced with another on the Audrey Kishline situation.

    I may be mistaken about his actual membership, but I do recall him making a favorable comment to it on youtube or that site somewhere.

    If I was mistaken about assuming he was a member when he was not, my apologies to him. But he is an anti-A.A.er who stands to gain monetarily with its supposed demise.

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  14. I think you just slandered Stanton Peel, and I hope he sues yer ass off.

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  15. Well I can't really slander him if I cannot prove the thing. Maybe he did not take his reference off of that wiki site. I was pretty sure it was him.

    I can't find your MF'ers vid on Youtube either. Was it your idea to make the "One Mom At A Time" sign?

    See... I've been to a lot of meetings too and never did I get the idea to take my mom to one, and if I did, I wouldn't take her to a meeting like that. Actually, I wouldn't take my mom to an A.A. meeting period. I might take her to a restaurant and maybe to the shopping mall where she could buy some shoes.

    Nice MFers vid for youtube btw. It's just that bunch of sensationalism that has grown you the audience that you have. Keep up the good work and may A.A. crumble soon and we can have a cup of coffee in celebration. Or you can have tea or water or whatever suits you. Maybe you're into moderation managment. In that case, I'll buy you a beer.

    Thanks for stopping in Gunthar.

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  16. I've been sober for five years. Thanks for the invitation though.

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  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  18. Of course the sudden closing ST was a 'quality of life' decision and the previous version of the very last ST thread had nothing at all to do with it. The newly edited version is now up to testify to that. Don't ask why the original needed a complete revision.

    Deletion of all the hundreds of thread comments should not be taken to mean anything at all. Deleting the baseless accusations, insanely wild defamations and the vileness they contained was simply a quality of life decision, nothing more.

    In the pursuit of quality lives no other comment threads needed to be removed.

    This is only a coincidence, a pure happenstance that needs no explaination.

    Interesting to note that this little mob that was too stupid to avoid shitting where they ate is also lame enough not to ask questions about why this particular odorous pile was scooped up and removed from view.

    I thought that thread was one of several which showcased them in their finest and truest form.

    My personal fav was when MA posted a wannabee funny commentary about an older fellow who was struck by an auto, winding up blinded and seriously injured. He was disappoited when the others couldn't see the fantastic humor involved in the fellow's suffering. He was miffed when they found no reason to laugh at the injured man and while not wanting to offend gently pointed out how obviously sadistic he was being. MA's pouting reply to being called on his sickness by his usually fawning supporters was a thing of great beauty.

    While he generally took pains to mask his true nature in dealings with others that he wanted to interact with for his own selfish reasons, it's hard to miss it on those occasions when he was not smart enough to be as careful as he needs to continually be.

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  19. I assure you, JD, that our decision to close the blog was made before this latest nutjob threatened us with violence, as McGowdog, to who I had sent an email prior to Jim Bock's shenanigans, telling him we were shutting down the blog, will attest. Not that I care what you believe, but if you wish to lobby for this specific delusion, you should pick a different forum where they are unaware of the truth.

    As for our last post, the entirety of the of Ilse's original post is contained in the last one, except for Jim Bock's hotel IP address, which we deleted but provided to law enforcement. We did add some things, such as the transcript of his last stunt, which was to call the brother of a woman who committed suicide so he could mock him. Personally, I think you two should get married.

    Dang. I wasn't expecting to show up here and find you, JD. You're one busy serenity bee! But I'm done engaging you or anyone else about this whole AA thing. I can't take any more crazy. I really, truly am worn the fuck out from this. I've put in my time.

    As for my original purpose in being here, I just wanted to tell the folks here I've engaged that I appreciated them letting me talk here with some civility. I tried not to argue, because this venue wasn't a place to tear us an asshole, or to talk AA shop along with the occasional discussions of Mexican food and such. I enjoyed participating in the latter. I think Jim, Robb, Joe, McGow and Cuda have good hearts, and good motives. I also know that if y'all got the AA you want, the one you try to live by yourselves, we would all be happy. That is why I don't, and never have, felt like you were any sort of enemy. I know people in AA. Good people. If I dismissed all people because they were in AA, I would lose some friends, and people I care about.

    Like I told McGow a few months ago, this whole crazy sideshow argument was like professional wrestling. The crazies on both sides never got the joke. I'm glad Ilse and I picked the fight with who we did; and we did start it with you folks, which is something most of our readers didn't realize. Not that y'all didn't take it to another level, but that made it fun!

    Now I'll let Mondotuna, Ralph and Tony get back to droning on, and on, and on about how irrelevant we are; how you don't care about what we had to say, and about our jackassery. And don't forget to lob in spiritual serenity stuff. That's the best part.

    Shine on you crazy diamonds.

    Mark

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  20. Mondotuna... aka ? JD?

    JD, Diablo... I'm honestly confused who is who now?

    I try to stick to one nickname; McGowdog or in one case, SirMcGowington. They were given to me.

    Yes, MA. You are correct and I give you credit... for in a sense creating us in this form. That we or some of us took it to another level is probably fair. What with the infamy and ease and affordability of getting your footprint into cyberspace via the internet.

    Part of me wants to stir the pot and mix it up but I also don't like being hated and disrespected. We that attempt to live in the spiritual realm know that in order to do so, we must first offer it. Our tradtions forbid us to fight back... to speak for the whole, etc. But... how's that working? We are not perfect.

    This anti/XA thing has really opened my eyes and put my faith and previous conceptions all into question... to the better I believe.

    I don't intend this site to be a place to bash anti/XA needlessly nor to throw stones on your attempt to close the curtain on Act I in your cyberworld. That's childish and destructive. But I guess one can contemplate that a man's greatness can be measured by the quality of his enemies... or something like that.

    I am sick as a dog now... having used my first sick day. I have been having to go to the restroom about every 20 minutes. It's as if I have Montezuma's revenge. One good thing, I seem to have lost 7 pounds in the last week. Drinking lots of water and eating lots of chicken soup. Once in a while, when I try to lie down, my stomach has a nasty growl... then it's off to the bathroom. I'm also taking this time off work to eek out my pesky 3rd column in my 4th step. I have much work to catch up on this month with that regard. Is the sickness symbolic or inevidable?

    Oh, and yes MA. I went back and highlighted your correspondence with me in red above. It is/was not my desire for any of us to show ill-will to you and yours going forward. Maybe in time, some will see the good and inevidability of seeing and honoring what our detractors are saying about "us"... and maybe finding a way to not fall victim to causing harm to nor enduring harm from others. Sounds like a noble enough cause.

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  21. "I also know that if y'all got the AA you want, the one you try to live by yourselves, we would all be happy. That is why I don't, and never have, felt like you were any sort of enemy. I know people in AA. Good people. If I dismissed all people because they were in AA, I would lose some friends, and people I care about."

    Thanks Mark I can get with this. I'm not above lobbing a controversy grenade from time to time, but it appears you are taking the high road. Can't really tell you to Fuck off in one breath and be spiritual the next. Good luck in whatever path unfolds beneath you. The offer of dinner stands if you find yourself back in the Southern NH region. Patrick's got my private contact info. Go easy.

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  22. Are you having poop problems?
    Thanks for sharing!

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  23. Yeah, but the frequency has gone down... so I only have to keep going back every couple of hours now. Wife brought me some gatorade because I'm watered out.

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  24. You gotta cut down on the Mexican food.

    Sometimes I think you are not such a bad guy... a little mixed up, but not too bad.

    Now all we have to do is get you out of that cult.

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  25. Mac:
    Try matzos, if you can find 'em in Pueblo. They'll bind you up so quick and solid that you could moonlight as a hydroelectric dam!
    Ralph

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  26. Thanks guys. I think the Brie has done the trick.

    I think I'm back to regular. I was considering the marketing of a new product out of necessity... mink-furred toilet paper.

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  27. @ MA

    "Now I'll let Mondotuna, Ralph and Tony get back to droning on, and on, and on about how irrelevant we are; how you don't care about what we had to say, and about our jackassery."

    Hey, don't get me wrong.

    You're only irrelevant to the world at large.

    I understand that your little movement is the center of your life and that of your sheep.

    It could also be too near the center of my life if I don't keep things in perspective.

    The vast majority of people in AA would avoid this type of conflict and I'm starting to see the wisdom of their views. It serves no good purpose. Either AA helps people or it doesn't.

    It takes two to tango. My ego tends to get the better of me sometimes and I think AA needs me to protect it. Silly, of course.

    You keep right on working tirelessly to bring it down and I'll keep right on going to meetings and doing my thing.

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  28. @ Gunthar :

    Hey, I read your little rant and the group who had AA and Al Anon is breaking Tradition Five, right ?

    So why even use that group as an example of a good meeting ?

    Your other complaints seem kind of pointless.

    Sometimes people don't act the way I would like them too either. I'm not getting how it's got much to do with AA.

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  29. @Tony J.

    I'm using it as an example of a typical meeting.
    God forbid an AA group should break one of the sacred traditions... It happens all of the time.

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  30. @Gunthar

    No Gunthar, a 'typical' AA meeting does not combine itself with an Al Anon meeting.

    And each group decides for itself if it's breaking Traditions or not. You don't get to say that nor do I.

    And my question still stands.

    WHAT exactly is your problem with any of the examples you gave ?

    A guy stood up and made remarks you thought were inappropriate, someone laughed at you, someone hit on you.

    You used to drink in bars ? And you can't handle yourself in those situations ?

    Hell, all that can happen in one walk around the block in any good sized city.

    Annoying, yes. A reason to leave a place and never return ? Probably not.

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  31. @Tony J...

    I've said it before and I 'll say it again... AA does not work! It's a faith healing program loaded with court ordered freaks and religious fanatics... That's why I don't do AA... because it doesn't work.

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  32. Well I disagree. But by all means, don't do A.A. I'm fine with your stance on it.

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  33. Gunthar,
    AA didn't work FOR YOU. I am sober today as the result of the 12 steps, so FOR ME it did. I like a good debate as much as the next. That being said, if we are going to take each other seriously, let's try to not make generalizations, which I am absolutely guilty of doing myself.

    You do understand this site is comprised of guys that the 12 step program worked for right? I'm open to discussion but I doubt either of us will change each others perspective.Come to think of it, I'm not interested in changing what you think.

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  34. @Gunthar

    I know Orange's talking points. I think they're weak, but I was interested in why your three examples were so bad to you. Not that it matters.

    You can just not go. I agree with everyone else. AA is for people who want it.
    Go find another program and use it to help yourself and others. Go for it.

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