Who/What is/was Stinkin'-Thinkin' at Wordpress?

MA
























Orange

A fellow poster/author here asked what is this ST we refer to from time to time.  I answered him in a comment and decided to make that two-part comment the current post topic.  So... my current view of our friends across cyberworld...



They are technically the reason for our existence here on this blog... our reason for our banning from Sober Recovery when you get right down to it. I don't blame anybody for that fact... it just is.  Add: Z and one unmentionable girl-troll were the ones who baited us and brought about my banning and some soon followed me as a seeming stance on principle and some have joined me here and have been made authors and part/administrators of the blog.  But... they have their antonomy and have since recovered from the purpose of the blog and have no axe to grind.  But they are always welcome here as they know.  I'm quite sure those minions from ST and perhaps Orange Papers and elsewhere infiltrate http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism on a regular basis and flood the topics with anti/XA rhetoric with a cycling bunch of new users/trolls and stir the pot from what's left of that sickened and soft-petered recovery site... no offense, just a notion I have.  No proof of this, just a notion.


It started off with me having some stuff brought to my attention. We'd post away at sober recovery and some snarky smart-asses were mocking our posts and bashing our dedication to spreading the A.A. message via the program outlined in the A.A. book... and answering questions from a few that dare attempt to follow that simple path.


I came onto this site called "DonewithAA" at wordpress which became "Stinkin'-Thinkin' dot com and the rest is history. There was MA, aka Mark... an Adolph Hitler mustache superimposed onto our beloved Bill W-wearin' author, ftg aka friendthegirl aka Ilse, and of course Speedy.


As we responded to the at times welcomed notoriety, it was soon apparent what they were up to; bait us into anger, they'd then sit back and watch us retaliate in anger, then they'd point their bony fingers at us as being unserene crazy mean-spirited assholes. As we whipped their asses at debate at every turn, they tried to "project" their own weak techniques and accusations at us... with words like "gas lighting", "red-herring", bait-and-switch, ad hominems, strawman arguments... etc... just a bunch of stuff they've burped up from Agent Orange via Orange Papers.


Then... as time went on, they amassed a bunch of anti/XAers ("anti AAers" from the start and "ex-AAers"... experts who been there done that and are now more qualified and more sober than you and I and cannot hear any arguments for or against from you or me because they are just frankly better than us... thus my abbreviation "anti/XAer") who were downright nasty to me, RobB, Jim, TonyJ, Karl aka Cuda aka PinkCuda... and they were somewhat cordial to Joe I think.


But the bottom line is they have been honking on and on about being anti-censorship, welcoming of debate, and open-minded to looking at both sides. But what we’ve found quickly is that they hate anything pro-A.A., hate actual debate, refuse to accept any evidence against their and Agent Orange half-truths and outright lies, etc. They built a site around it and built a community of folks who frankly get off on trying to put us and bring us down. They search tirelessly for ways of spinning anything recovery or A.A. related to make the A.A. fellowship to look like a bunch of tyrant white male sex abusing raping 13th stepping sick old bastards who want to control and abuse its poor poor victims who get sent to A.A. or come searching A.A. for a gleam of hope.


They are endlessly finding ways to reiterate and add to claims from Agent Orange about what a sex-crazed belladonna induced lunatic that Bill W was and they have an equally vicious character assassination for Dr Bob and anything A.A. We all know these guys were never saints. They even said so.


They go on tirelessly to reiterate Agent Oranges’ claims that A.A. has a success rate of 5% or less and that doing nothing will lead to the same spontaneous remission as the aforementioned program. They spout the good works of many other mostly secular recovery organizations but spend no time actually directing people to how and where these programs are doing better works within the annuls of recovery… because frankly they are too busy bashing A.A. and bullying its inhabitants.


Do I sound dramatic? Well… being the site is temporarily gone… I have not much proof. Some of my peeps will shed light on the accuracy of my findings/experiences with these folks.



I’ve had an on again/off again/on again positive relationship with FTG and MA. I do not claim to be their equal in writing techniques, dedication to their cause, or their ability to grow a huge following. They whipped our asses in that regard. But we hang in here and my/our main purpose for this here blog is to have a place to hang your hat and speak your piece. I don’t claim to keep this place free of censorship. If you come in here and call me names and get nasty with me, I’m gonna censor that. Everyone who knows me knows that I can get nasty, mean, and flat out rude to those who cross me. I’d like to think I’ve been baited and falsely judged from time to time, but whatever. Don’t recall… water under the bridge, right? If you threaten me, I’ll answer the threat back. If you threaten one of my colleagues in recovery… or MA and ftg on here, I’ll send you away as best I can. There’s no room for that shit.


I feel bad for the crap MA and ftg got into with an irate and perhaps dangerous poster. I don’t know both sides of the story, but this guy seemed to find an actual address for ftg and perhaps threatened her physically. She and those at ST could have probably fought this guy right into incarceration if they/she wanted to. This was not the cause for the site to temporarily/permanently shut down. MA and ftg were looking to take a break and head in other directions for now. It’s just coincidence. But I feel for them and wish them well.


We actually have a common goal. We want to help see that drunks and addicts and victims of those afflictions get the help they need. We see the path to that end differently. To the other “minions” of the site who not only see our path as wrong but also leave no room for our worthiness, I say, “Good day.” But something strange happened between some of those minions and I… they started to see I wasn’t such a bad guy after all. They just see me as mislead and think I’m too smart to be snowed-over by the A.A. program. To them I say, “Come see the A.A. that I know. As far as MOTR stuff and all the bad A.A. that’s out there… and the knuckleheads that make such a mess out of trying to control people and the poor folks who truly are in need of and want help and willing to do something about it… I understand that most of A.A. is a huge mess. But even still, it works for some and provides something for others that we cannot explain.


A.A. should be totally voluntary and the courts/judicial system, healthcare industry etc., should let some of us explain what A.A. can do and cannot do and how it is to be 100% voluntary and how it’s not just a place to dump criminals to be punished and a place where children can be babysat and raised. A.A. is for drunks who need and want the help that A.A. has to offer.


It works pretty good for me and that’s that.


http://goodbye.stinkin-thinkin.com


Goodbye ST. Go well.
An aside for Gunthar:




That's right. Stanton is a former board member of MM and a former MM apologist. Sorry for my previous claims. Apologist and A.A. accuser. So he no longer actively supports Audrey, but wants to make it clear that it's probably A.A.s fault for her drinking too much due to the dangers of... abstinence? Does abstinence lead to binging or something? I thought binging was for underage drinkers. I'm confused.









One more thing about abstinence... as some anti/XAers are claiming abstinence out there... but not all. It's ok to be abstinent... so long as you don't do it in A.A. To do so in A.A. is cultish and harmful to others... aka causes more harm than good. Oh, and don't preach now. It's no fair to preach at anybody these days!









In Stanton's defense, I understand what he's saying; the woman who drove drunk and killed people is at fault, not A.A. and not MM and not the car and not the wine. But... he believes that had she been able to voice her situation freely and without guilt... that she was drinking to excess and that she needed help... like perhaps a ride somewhere so she didn't drive drunk... the harm would have been removed. As O'Reilly says, the sober AAer would not have driven drunk anyway.









What's the upshot of the story for me? The founder of MM drove drunk and killed two people. So... is she special? The anti/XAer and secular type folks want to bewail the institution of A.A. and its claim to spirituality and any talk of "disease". But they're willing to agree that folks like Audrey might be different that others. For some moderation works and for some, not so. Well you can't have it both ways. Either there are physical ramifications or there are not. You want us to believe that it's all culture and behavior. I think it's more complicated than that... as in perhaps physical as well as something perhaps physiological. Pretty much what A.A. has been saying since 1935.

Ain't worth my time

Just here to say... A.A. works brilliantly for me. So kick back... enjoy your day, and don't forget to... Spend Your Sunday with the Priest!





MA writes:
One of our readers, Cuda, aka “Leadfoot”, who we regretfully had to ban from the site – participates in a forum largely dedicated to this blog, how they don’t care about this blog, and to dispelling some of the “myths” they believe we are perpetuating about AA. He took time out from his serenity and non-involvement in outside opinions, to ask this question, which is too lengthy and full of straw men to answer in a single post. It does, however, ask an important question about the constitutionality of forced AA attendance, so I thought that I would answer that part of it here it here, in the first of a multi-part series titled “Answering Cuda’s Long-ass Question”.



Ah, MA still misses us. I stayed away from your one-sided blog for 6 long months then started to contribute in your absence, until you started to lock my Team McGowdog members up and I heard you kicked us all off. I'd already stopped posting over there, but... I'll give you the gratitude of having "kicked me off of your site". But remember back to who contacted who first. If I'm not mistaken, you came over here as "shark sandwich" and as I thought, invited me back over... back in about December of 09.



tintop says :
First, cuda deserved the ban. Second, AA is religious in nature... piss moan... piss moan...



MA says:

Anyone with half a brain... piss moan... piss moan...



speedy0314 says :
ma, you realize, of course, that cuda’s foolproof, erudite response will be something along the lines of “is not!” it will also include a fair amount of personal insult ... piss moan... piss moan...



Ben Franklin says:
I am sure we will find a running commentary on McPuppie’s blog. He, even though banned from here has one of StinkinThinkins threads posted over there. He also has another blog called donewithaa. Man, I don’t know if someone has traded an obsession with alcohol with an obsession with Stinkin Thinkin. Hey Mc dog get a job you piker! Whats it been over 9 months now!



Thank you for your concern, Ben. I've been doing some odd jobs, telecommuting, report writing, etc. But I just got back from a big ESD flooring install in Virginia and helped to earn my fine company $34,000.00 (for just the install of the floor, not counting the demolition, the skim coat, and the wall base) So... there again, thank you for your attention and concern. It's a special type of flooring for a company that makes devices for our US Government that's gonna take care of those pesky land mines in the Middle East. "Before you take the first step". It detects them before human contact, marks it via GPS and blows it up if need be. Our flooring enables them the reliability to do it right.



While I'm at it, I'll show y'all some install pics. Enjoy;


















Hard to trowel with this, but the pain in my knees took the attention off of it for a while










































So it's good to see you whinny bitches are still interested in our shit. Keep up the good work of eating, breathing, pissing, moaning, and manpon stuffing your hatred for A.A.

McGowdog, at your service.


Oh! Speaking of service, I've done a bit of landscaping too;

Sod cutters are hell, even with gloves on.

The CDCR has ordered parole officers to find alternative programs for such parolees.

Really?

I don't think so. Here's my opinion about this; Tell the 3-strikes-you're-out-convicted-meth-head to go start his own secular drug program and quit blaming the courts, POs, cops, DOC, the treatment center, etc. for your sore brown starfish.



You're a druggie punk and you and your lawyer found a little loophole in the system thanks to the 1st Amendment. Good for you.

Conclusion; if you're an atheist, don't use A.A. or N.A., C.A., etc.

Request; please go out and start a secular alternative and take your atheists with you. If your secular program can be the least bit altruistic, maybe you'll encourage going to the jails, hospitals, courts, treatment centers, etc. and finding your own kind and offering up a place for them to get clean/sober/etc. without the use of God or Higher Power or whatever it is you find offensive and get on with NOT BREAKING THE FUCKING LAWS OF OUR FINE NATION UNDER GOD YOU FUCKING HEATHENS!

So you win! A.A. is a religion and A.A. is about God. Now go fuck yourselves, but don't expect tax exemption for your newly created religion, Atheism. Well actually, I could care less.

What I care about is the untreated meth-head who is looking to rape your daughter and snatch the purse from your wife at the local 7-11 and drag her 30 feet while she tries to steal her own purse back but you're in an 8 day spun-out meth binge as you drive off.

Now maybe, just maybe, A.A., N.A., C.A., and other God-based 12 Step programs can stop bending over backwards to fill the needs of the misbehaving world. Go ahead. Start your own programs and leave A.A. alone. Go now and find an empty building in your local strip mall, get a few tables, a few chairs, a coffee pot or a tea pot, a few slogans, a few secular druggies and/or drunks, and a hat, and start a meeting. Run your Godless program anyway you want, make mistakes, come up with traditions to tighten things down, and maybe you'll soon surpass A.A. and sway the courts and hospitals to send some clients your way.

You ought to have a decent base already to go now; Agent Orange followers, Stinkin' Thinkin' followers, the Blame Guys, about 90% of the folks over at Sober Roverery...

[s]elf Bless you all and have a wonderful day.

M.A. from Stinkin' Thinkin's Thought for the Day

Thought of the Day
Posted on February 5, 2010 by M A
Perhaps those AAs who are getting sober with the help of their Higher Power™ could “go it alone” for a few days so God can sort out things in Haiti.

Filed under: Deep Thoughts Leave a Comment »

I went to um... leave a comment, and it wouldn't let me for some reason. Last night, I was in like flynn. Oh well. Well since M.A. aka Shark Sandwich is with us over here now... I'd like to drop a response.

Well that sounds fair to me. I could give up God for a few I guess. I'll just pray to my cats for a few days, no problem. That will be cool. They get pretty spiritual when we give them catnip. Godnip.

Anywho... I thought God spoketh over there in Haiti about 23 days ago.


I added this bit thinking that I was being blocked from over there, but not the case... as it was just a temporary bottleneck.

mikeblamedenial, on February 6th, 2010 at 7:59 pm Said:

“M.A… you had a shitty sponsor. Let me help you with that next time, please.”

So did you, it would seem. If you are going to make offers of sponsorship, particularly when describing or commenting on 12-step concepts, I suggest you first get a dictionary, and a thesaurus, and do a little reading. Your repeated misuse of the word “amend” indicates a lack of understanding of its meaning,. The word only appears in the English language as a verb and its definitions do not apply in the 8th and 9th step applications.

“a·mend
a·mend·ed, a·mend·ing, a·mends
VERB: tr.
To change for the better; improve: amended the earlier proposal so as to make it more comprehensive.
To remove the faults or errors in; correct. See Synonyms at correct.
To alter (a legislative measure, for example) formally by adding, deleting, or rephrasing.
To enrich (soil), especially by mixing in organic matter or sand.”

The noun “amends”, which the 8th and 9th steps mention, always ends in the letter “s”. I would also submit that the definition of that word has been convoluted in your current 12-step application. It isn’t an apology, a confession of sin, a plea for forgiveness, or any other make-us-feel-good-about-ourselves-and-get-right-with-God nonsense. Here are some dictionary definitions from three different sources:

something given or done to make up for injury, loss, etc. that one has caused.

Recompense for grievance or injury.

Compensation for a loss or injury

Here are some synonyms to clear it up even further–amends: noun Something to make up for loss or damage: compensation, indemnification, indemnity, offset, quittance, recompense, redress, reimbursement, remuneration, reparation, repayment, requital, restitution, satisfaction, setoff.

As you can hopefully see, penance, sacraments, the pain of Jesus, the all-seeing Eye of God, Scientology, etc, while possibly worthwhile subjects of discussion, clearly are not within the intentions of the ninth step or the scope of any proper amends discussion between sponsor and sponsee. Yours is a good example of one of the basic shortcomings of sponsorship: inept leadership based upon indoctrination rather than genuine qualification to administer accurate, helpful information. Write your letter of confession and apology to the Eye, and send me a Paypal check (you have my email addy) as compensation for all those crappy things you said about me, then go ahead and continue to take personal inventory, promptly admitting when you are wrong.

Reply
Jim, on February 6th, 2010 at 9:57 pm Said:
I agree. If an amend is done from a place of seeking to ease a guilty conscience and not from a sincere desire to set right a wrong, it only feeds the sickness from whence it came.

That being said, I’m glad I’m not famous because I screw up all the time.

They have a saying in AA that you can’t save your face and your ass at the same time.

Reply
mcgowdog, on February 6th, 2010 at 10:10 pm Said:
Take you Funk and Wagnalls definitions and cram them up your pipe hole.

I have plenty of awesome experience on making amends. I do them and I finish them every year.

” It isn’t an apology, a confession of sin, a plea for forgiveness, or any other make-us-feel-good-about-ourselves-and”

“An apology won’t fit the bill at all.” So… no shit, Sherlock. What was your first clue? But showing contrition and sorrow is very important. But what part of my amend example did I say, “I’m sorry!”? No where.

What’s your experience making amends? We use the Sacraments of Pennance in our 8th Step. If you’ve done such a thing, we can talk about it. If not, I’m not interested in your opinion of which you know nothing about.

Paypal? I owe you money? Why don’t you go down to the soup kitchen and eat. Next time someone bumps into you at an intersection, come out grabbing your neck… go for the California Lottery. Oh, and please, go down to the bus depot and give out some free b-jobs and get your self esteem back. Quit being a victim. I owe you nothing. Don’t like my writings? Don’t read them.

Reply
mikeblamedenial, on February 6th, 2010 at 10:51 pm Said:
Your hateful, vulgar, and generally unkind words are a stark contrast to your professions of sacramental adherence and the selfless dedication to helping others prescribed by 12-step doctrine. Once again, the word is “amends”, not “amend”. Repitition is the key to learning new information.

Reply
AndyM, on February 7th, 2010 at 12:10 am Said:
Odd that so many online 12 step apologists manage to combine a claim of profound spiritual spiritual insight with a filthy (if sadly limited and misspelt) vocabulary. Suggestions that people who disagree with them shove various things up their rectums seems to be a popular theme with them for some reason. I do wish aa literature had been written in this robust , no-holds-barred, lavatory wall style of prose. For my money it would have given a more accurate picture of aa spirituality as seen in practice.

Reply

McGowdog:

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of everybody else in the room.

I expected nothing more from you whiny bitches.

Continued Conversations from Stinkin' Thinkin'

So... I gave them a break and decided to "give it up" and post my delicious wisdom over there again... and it was all good.

Then just today, I tried to post... and I got jammed up. I don't know what's wrong. They must have their editor back-logged or something. Well anyways, we were having a good conversation about stuff... namely how A.A. sucks and how a woman's marriage is being ruined because she's jealous of her husband going there or something.

So let's just merge into the conversation, shall we?

Barton, on December 30th, 2009 at 7:33 pm Said:

I’ve been researching AA alot lately. My husband is consumed by this cult. It is destroying our marriage and family. I’m experiencing the …forget them, we’re your family… line that AA is feeding him. What worries me most is that it was a Government approved rehab centre that introduced him to AA.

I need to find something that will shock him into rational thinking and make him realise that he has no control of his life. Something that will make him realise that he needs “Rational Recovery” not “pray for guidance” which is what AA is feeding him.

Any suggestions??

Then uberdog...

Uberdog, on December 30th, 2009 at 8:36 pm Said:

Most people figure out AA is bullshit within the first 90 days, thus much importance is placed on 90 meetings in 90 days.It’s most effective on people who’s family or friends are substance abusers. Loneliness is a powerful motivator exploited in the rooms.Confrontational tactics are more likely to send the recruit back for more indoctrination as they attempt to aviod conflict.Do some homework . Call counseling services and find out who is not 12 step afilliated. Make an appointment for yourself and discuss your situation before going together. Ask questions of him in an inquisitive rather than accusing manner, lead him, rather than command him to the solution.Suggest doing things he likes to do on meeting nights and do them with him. Since he has chosen to abstain from drinking his social circle will change and he has much more time on his hands than before. Find new interesting people and activities to entertain the both of you.

OR

If all else fails ask him how his fourth step is going, when is he going to start it, why he hasn’t he finished it yet and why won’t he let you read it.Best of luck!
December 30, 2009 1:33 PM

Then my turn:

McGowdog said...

Yeah, try something else. I think that Malibu Passage Rehab is good (http://www.passagesmalibu.com/?gclid=CPHhyJiL_54CFQmbnAodxyclIQ). The book is only $18.00 and the treatment costs about $80,000.00 or something. Must be worth it if it costs that much.

As far as reading his 4th Step, thats a good idea. Here's an example of that;

Column 1; Resentful at uberdog

Column 2: the cause... he's a milk-fed momma's boy with no balls.

Column 3:

.................Self esteem... I am sober, Mr. A.A., a real man.

.................Security... I need uberdog to grow up.

.................Ambition... I want to give uberdog balls.

.................Personal Relations... men defer to real men.

.................Pocketbook... N/A


So yeah, if you want to read someone else's inventory, I offer you this little smidgeon of advice; Once you read it, you're responsible. Good luck with that.
December 30, 2009 1:32 PM



So yeah... I offered up that plethora of advice free of charge. Gee. To think I saved her $80,000.00. I must be like a spiritual giant or something.

I offered some other advice, but it didn't show up for some reason and I didn't think of saving it before losing it to cyber space. I wonder if it'll make it past the editor over there at Stinkin.

I think Barton had asked for the advice after saying,

"I’ve been researching AA alot lately. My husband is consumed by this cult. It is destroying our marriage and family. I’m experiencing the …

I need to find something that will shock him into rational thinking and make him realise that he has no control of his life. Something that will make him realise that he needs “Rational Recovery” not “pray for guidance” which is what AA is feeding him.

Any suggestions??

Then I said something to the effect:

McGowdog: Maybe your husband isn't an alcoholic at all. Maybe he's just a situational drinker. What's the situation in the bedroom been lately?

So yeah, we'll see how it all shakes out and what gets posted and not. I sure hope they have a chance to read my pearls of wisdom and am looking forward to hearing the responses and how helpful my free advice is for them.

Happy New Year!

********************************

Oh yeah. Then just last night, H conversed with me a bit. things were actually pretty cordial...

H, on December 29th, 2009 at 5:35 pm Said:

mcgowdog –go to hell or to a meeting, whichever is closer.

Reply

So, being the gentleman that I am, I abliged her;

I went to a meeting.

The topic was "Wait for the Miracle".

I was called on first to share.

I said, "In my group, we say, 'Wait for the POP'.

"The chair person said, "Wait for the POP? What's that mean?"

I said, "That's the sound you hear when you pull your head out of your ass."

That went off like a fart in church.


****************************

Oh boy! Now I did it.

I created a Monster! Teej meets Stinky Pinky... or Stinkin' Thinkin' or whatever they call it.


Tony J, on December 30th, 2009 at 11:40 pm Said:

Q. What kind of person would de-capitalize the G and H in God and He in someone elses quote ?

A. A religious fanatic. Atheism. The true opiate for the masses.

LOL.

As far as your silly question goes, why don’t you read the BB and see why ? It never suggests that a spiritual awakening comes to a person directly and one on one. It assumes that God works through people. Your quote is consistent with the rest of the book.

So, besides giving you an opportunity to edit someone elses work(someone with a purpose in life)……what is the point of your question ?

If you spend more than 3 minutes a week worrying about AA, you are pretty much a worthless human being.

Join and participate or quit and ignore it. In the mean time get some fresh air. You spend too much time on the internet…….
Reply

Reply; That's the whole point TJ! They've never quit A.A. ... The Program is etched into their brains forever! Hey H, Speedy, annaZed, FTG, MA, and now Uberdog, etc. ... give it a try. Try not to think about A.A. You can't do it! Here, go fetch...

*****************

Well... we see here that TJ went right after Speedy on his first post. I've seen TJ in action with 4 antiAA Bashing dorks and he's bloodied them all at one time. Let's see if Speedy doesn't respond with a "Fuck you twice, or a "speedy0314, on June 7th, 2009 at 4:10 am Said:i’d like to forward him a few posts from the steppers over at blame’s YT channel or even some of the e-mail i get after responding to vids. ‘vicious’, ‘demonizing’, ‘tearing down’ … ‘your mileage may vary’.kiss my ass you molly-coddled, in-love-with-your-own-credentials pansy. sit your highly theoretical ass in meetings for a full year & then tell me how wonderful & empowering it all is.fuck him twice,

speedy " to boot...

Yeah, we finally find out what Speedy was talking about with those stupid dorks on mike's YT channel. Hey Speedy, blamethedenialorwhateverthefuck, Orange, meet "Eyelovebooze" bitches.


******************************************

Here's a little section from within Stinkin' Thinkin' where they assume they are Sobriety Central and people give a fuck about their "Drivel" as they say "over there";


Stinkin Thinkin Frequently Asked Questions and Repetitive Sentiments

I know that when AA scolds come here to wag their fingers at us, or take the time out of their serenity to insist that they are serene and to point out that they pity our anger, I know they’re not really interested in engaging in a dialog. They’re hit and run. If they were actually curious about our motives here they’d be inspired to peruse the blog, and what they learn will inform their questions and comments, which would be much different. And if they did, they would have found their questions answered and comments addressed over and over again, because I keep answering them, for some reason (You know when you take a screwdriver, like this, and you jam it into your ear, like this… I hate that!).

They’d also be able to actually take issue with what we’ve said, rather than dropping in to take pot-shots at our sobriety, motives, mental health, and emotional state.

They’re not here to engage – which we are very open to.

We’re game.

We don’t censor.

Granted, we’re not going to mollycoddle anyone.

I mean, you have to be able to take the heat.

But we’re open to debate

Debate my hairy sweaty balls. I went over there after I noticed you dorks badmouthing those from SR and eventually me included. I wasn't on board with SR until about April, so I was a late-comer to the Sobriety-Blog-Message Board world.

So, trying to go "off the ranch", I engaged you guys and gave you plenty to talk about. Then eventually, I was pretty much run off, told to "sod off", "fuck off", was called "peckerwood", etc. My personal information was asked for twice, as if some punk has the nipples to come actually get some, then I was told that my postings are likened to "staring at the sun". Words were exchanged. Nothing but a bunch of sophomoric one-sided shit from what I remember. Then I noticed that there's about 3 authors and about 5 minions who regurgitate the same shit over and over again and slobber over each other the same antiA.A. Orange-induced rhetoric.

So I get bored with it and just leave. I go back to my message board and notice that some from Stinkin' Thinkin' are slipping and slithering around in the more secular and MOTR corners of the message board.

Then I decide I need my own safe... warehouse... in cyberspace... with which to go chill... gather my thoughts... and a place to put them so they don't get deleted... or as in the case with Stinkin' Thinkin'... CENSORED!!!!!!!!!!

STINKIN' THINKIN' HAS NOT ONLY EDITED MY RECENT POSTS......... THEY ARE NO LONGER GETTING THROUGH!!!!!!!!! One against 8 or more and they won't take me on. Fine.

Roger Ebert Article

Well I've been hearing about this from Stinkin' Thinkin', and now a recovery site. So I thought I'd check it out.

I read the blog or whatever that is and don't know what I think about the guy yet. I'd like him to qualify for one thing. I'm not sure he's an alcoholic yet. I don't identify with his story and could care less about his 30 years of continuous sobriety. I want to know if he has to do what I do to stay spiritually fit. What's his experience with the steps? That's all I care about.

As Stinkin' Thinkin' rightly points out, he seems to be an A.A. appologist. A.A. needs no appology, but we'll look into a bit of what he says. Evidently, he has spent some time doing something. We'll try to find out what that is and see if it measures up with my experience in the steps. He says words like disease and addiction and "plug in the jug", which I hate. It's MOTR BS. Wedge. He's full of shit so I can't here him. But we'll see.

I tried to comment on one of the comments and his site wouldn't accept it, so I'll start my comments here;


Hey Sharon, about that 5th comment from 10:34 am on the 25th of August;

It's nice that your brother got sober on Rational Recovery. Whatever works. Sure! If rational thought works for you, do it!

I go to meetings here and there besides my homegroup. My homegroup is closed A.A. and it's just for alcoholics who submit to the steps as they are in the book and we are a group that discusses our experience and that's about it. We don't study the book. We just do it and discuss our current experience on it and we question each other about stuff. It's hard core, if you will.
But I go to these other meetings from time to time and there's this counselor from the local treatment center that's sort of the spiritual guru of this place. He brings his clients to this one meeting on Monday evenings. I ask him about Life Ring, Rational Recovery, SMART, SP, and I wonder if he knows about them. He says he's checked them out and that they may be fine for the hard drinker or hard drug user, but they don't work for the real alcoholic or the real addict. Didn't the founder drink again? Oh, well in that program, they don't talk about that stuff, right? Don't want to label anybody here, right? slipper-ER!!!!!!! Sorry.

Then I asked him about secular recoveries. He said he checked that out too. Evidently, he says, all they do in there is sit around and 8!#ch about A.A.

Where are those abused in A.A. to go?

FTG: Based on what I see in the list of search terms that people use to find our blog, I know that our visitors are righteously pissed off about their experiences in AA. And those are precisely the people we’re here for. They are why we created this blog. But, there’s no censorship on Stinkin’ Thinkin (unless you pull a McGowdog and cut/paste the same 3 words over and over again for a half an hour straight and then hit “post” when you get a hand cramp – in which case we will probably just edit you down a bit so that people can get the gist of your argument without having to take a nap on the scroll button. McGowdog might hate our guts, but it’s not because we didn’t let him speak his mind or give him a fair shake.). What I mean is that the floor is yours. You will never be deleted. Speak your piece.

McGowdog didn't spend 30 minutes cutting and pasting. He used the binary method; cut and paste a few, then recut and paste what you've done a few times, then repeat and in less than a minute, you've annoyed your bloggers.




I went on to make amends to ftg and she graciously accepted, then told me she would continue to bad-mouth us nonetheless and that they like to debate over there. I don't debate this recovery stuff. It's just life and death for some of us and we don't mess around with it. So ftg said they were snakes over there and I believed them and walked away as she slithered off.

If you can stay sober on rational thought, do it. If you can stay sober on kind thoughts, do it. If you can stay sober on love thy neighbor, do it. Then if that works, please don't go to A.A. and get bent on their suggestions and/or directions and spare them your opinions of it. There's a lot of middle of the road/slogan garbage in A.A. That stuff may be helpful to the hard drinker and the lonely misfit, but it doesn't work for some alcoholics that may need a spiritual experience.

Dog A.A.'s suggestions to a spiritual experience all you want. A.A. is not a theology, a philosophy, and it's not a cult or a dogma. A.A. is merely a set of instructions. If you do certain things, you get a certain result. A.A. works, and it works everytime for alcoholics.

A.A. was built on a foundation of one drunk talking to another drunk. When you realize the simplicity of it, and the fact that those afflicted are solely responsible for their own recovery, they lose their value to a whole industry built up around them. Imagine all the paychecks that are signed off as a result of an alcoholic that is

A) drinking

and

B) still alive.

The problem is, alcoholics have a nasty way of dying, so they run out of root stock. It's the non-alcoholics that get hustled into A.A. that causes the problem.

So these poor abused victims that are in A.A., did they get sentenced into A.A. beyond their own will? Were they court ordered? Were they hustled in? I know some people that DON'T go to A.A. They aren't alcoholics or anything, but they don't go. And they don't bitch about A.A. either. What a concept, huh? If I went to PTA meetings, being that I don't have any children, I'd be confused and lost too. I might even eventually be asked to participate and give of my time. Then about 2 years later, I could be a victim too and say, YOU PTA BASTARDS HAVE WASTED MY LIFE!!!!!!! Then I could be a victim like you losers.

I am a real recovered alcoholic and I go to a meeting about twice a week. You loser dorks go to an Anti-A.A. meeting every day. It's called Stinkin' Thinkin'.

Who is Hating on A.A.?

M A, on June 9th, 2009 at 5:01 pm Said:
Hi, ***.

No, you aren’t close. I try not to spend my time trying to speak rationally to, or debating with those who have been brainwashed by the AA scriptures, because arguing religion is fruitless. I will answer this question, because it is simple.

AA is not a benign organization. AA harms many, many people – both alcoholics and their families. AA wrecks people’s lives. AA did not fail me, although I have seen it fail so many others; and, not just fail, but cause them irreparable, permanent harm. It also causes society a great amount of harm. We just want to create some awareness. That’s it.

You either don’t understand this or you won’t admit to it because you are brainwashed by this cult. You really aren’t the audience we are playing to here, although we welcome your input. We are really gearing this to those who been harmed by AA, and those who are considering AA.

Judging from the number of hits, and the feedback we have received, it seems to be working well with our target audience.

And then further we see;

M A, on June 8th, 2009 at 8:42 am Said:
Thanks, Richard.
I checked it out, but will have to go back to read the rest of his comments. Reading what McGowdog writes is like looking at the sun: I can only do it for short periods at time before I turn my head away. You know that really bad feeling of empathy for someone who makes an ass of themselves in public? That is how I feel when I read what that poor bastard writes. No doubt his AA buddies read it and think, “shut up, already; you are making us look bad”.

I... make A.A. look bad? And you make it look like a bed of roses? Really?

Tell us how you really feel about A.A., would ya M.A.?

Friendthegirl?

AA is f%#$ing enormous. If the treatment industry were a microcosm of the whole country, AA would fill the niche Christianity fills. And like Christianity, which has a mighty sense of entitlement to assert itself and influence every facet of society – public schools, court rooms, the Constitution, people’s private lives – AA/12-step has a similar sense of entitlement within the treatment industry. And it is also treated by the treatment industry with the same… Idunno… unquestioning, kid-glove indulgence that Christianity enjoys. In general, people treat Christianity with respect, even if they don’t believe it. It’s kind of funny how rational people, or people who are not Christians, will so rarely – in the arena of public discourse – call bullshit on someone’s religion, even when their opponent’s religious belief is at the very root of their demented approach to public policy.

Nobody wants to stand up and lambaste AA anymore than anyone wants to get on prime-time news and tell Christians that their religion is ridiculous and that it has no place in government (unless you’re Christopher Hitchens). If you do that, you become the immoral, godless crank, and the uproar is enormous. How long do you think it will be before our country is ready to elect an atheist President? As it stands, we just don’t take anyone seriously unless they have faith in some in strange, random, unprovable, supernatural event – among many random, strange things they could possibly believe.

In the treatment industry, public criticism of AA and 12-Step programs is rare, and for the same reasons. It is always very delicately couched – AA is just a given; it’s conventional wisdom, mainstream. I wonder how many times Ann Landers, for instance, has suggested AA to her readers, without knowing anything more about it than that AA is what drunks are supposed to do. The treatment industry is bloated with AA, and this is a horrible result. AA is a “miracle;” it’s a belief system; it’s a spiritual program. But it is not addiction treatment, anymore than Intelligent Design is science.

In order for science to consider Intelligent Design seriously, even just to engage in a debate with ID’s proponents, science itself would have to abandon its rigorous standards; the conversation would require that science actually redefine terminology in order to find some common ground for discussion. This has already happened with AA. The treatment industry takes the utter unaccountability of AA seriously. Terms like “spiritual disease” are rarely questioned. And the result of this has been disastrous for so many people.

Further, AA’s unaccountability and lack of responsibility for what actually happens in AA meetings, and the treatment industry’s dependence on, and unquestioning acceptance of AA, has generated some awful AA gestalt, which is like the gray goo. People are not being treated for their addictions in AA; they’re either becoming part of the goo or getting run over by it. As MA pointed out, we’ve seen the damage it does to people — its epidemic.

Compared to the giant machine AA has for support, and the doe-eyed acceptance it receives in general, and the millions of members and meetings, we’re really small potatoes. AA is not the underdog; it’s the Gold Standard. AA enjoys a place at the head of the grown-ups’ table, while its critics are viewed as the turds in the punchbowl.

But when we criticize AA, hold it up to the light of day, the response we receive from AAs is so interesting. You’d think they were being persecuted. An enormous institution with this much influence (yes, I know AAs deny this) should be immune from criticism? Can’t handle a little ankle biting? They do not welcome the muckrakers? They have no interest in doing a fearless moral inventory, rooting out abuses and ineffective elements, in evolving? No desire for accountability? Why? Why are the members who question what goes on in meetings told to take the cotton out of their ears? No checks and balances? No standards? Critics must have failed the program that cannot fail.

So, yeah, I’d say that our mission here is noble. We have a mess. People are being harmed in AA because it mimics the dynamics of an abusive domestic relationship* – and it is The Norm. Is wanting to “expose the truth and save the world” a ridiculous pursuit? The way you phrase that makes it seem that doing so is quixotic, silly, childish, deluded. I guess it’s the “and save the world” part. How about we leave off that part, and put it like this, “expose the truth, keep the conversation going, and hope it leads to reform.”
–ftg

This will take some time to digest and figure out. I guess Stinkin' Thinkin's religion is merely Anti A.A... sort of like the Anti-Christ, right?