Quickcap does a nice job of explaining the 95% lie

He has a youtube channel over there and I really like the way he explains the survey.

A.A. Members' Length of Sobriety:

• Less than one year..... 26%




• 1-5 years................... 24%




• 5-10 years................. 14%




• 10+ years................... 36%

Now this seems more like it. How could this be?

First, let's look at some A.A. statistical facts that we've heard;

• 2 million sober members


• Average length of sobriety is 8 years

What would the A.A. haters or antiAAers have us believe?

• 95% to 100% ineffective

Where in the hell do they even get that from?

Well, Quickcap mentions two types of AA haters;

First, you've got your weiners, or those that like to repeat something that someone else says over and over and over...

Secondly, you've got your ankle biters. They just flat out spread lies.

So... as the story goes, A.A. does an internal survey every three years and back in 1989, there were 2 key questions that were keyed in on;

5. I first came to A.A. in ...... / ..............

....................................month/ year

6. I had my last drink in .... / ................

...................................month year

So the problem is... there's a lag between the answer to 6 and 5. Some come to A.A. because they have "back problems". Some actually come to A.A. to get wives, husbands, bosses, judges, family, etc. off their back... but continue to drink or remain dry. Then they hit a brick wall and come back to A.A. and are willing to do something. But this is when the antiAAers or AA haters come in and lay down this lie. They probably cause some damage and this is exactly why I just got kicked off a recovery forum.

So the next lie on the AA haters agenda is that A.A. is a religious evil cult that is both ineffective and yet also still dangerous. As Quickcap points out, trying to control alcoholics is like hearding cats.

"How can you have a cult when you have the patients running the asylum?"

Thank you Quickcap for what you do over there on youtube. I see your hate mail. You must really be onto something.

Let's break down my experience on some Recovery Forums, shall we?

""hi therei read your post about your meeting ,, wow im intrigued im a *** and go through *** many times a year i wanted to direct you to a site ,, not sure you will like it though ,,, im not real popular there ,, they tend to go with the traditional slogans , happy happy etc
anyway the site is [url]www.*******.com[/url]
i feel they could use your honest recovery ,,,""

***********

""Can I ask you a simple question?Why do you want to delete all your posts?
You don't have to answer, of course; just curious.""

*******************

""For what it's worth, I don't think you were treated fairly.
I might not have responded with "bite me", but then again, I might've. You might notice that I didn't fault you on it.
What's amusing is that there's no need to sign the rep comment. I signed mine as a sign of support, because I knew you would read it. My guess is that J* signed his, thinking that someone else would read it, not you. You might take that into consideration, if it's any help at all: he didn't mean for you to read that. Just depends whether you care more what's said to your face than behind your back, I guess. It wasn't a nice thing for him to say, either way.
I am curious, though; you mentioned that you have enemies (your word) in other places. How do you handle it differently, there, or how do they? My interest is in making this the best possible place, and it's not there yet.
Here's your shot (and I have to leave, so I might have to read it tomorrow): what would you do differently, if you had moderator powers here?""

************

McGowdog:

Well thanks ****.

I would like to suggest something about this particular forum if I could; I would like to see a specific place where those that use A.A. could go to post topics that might be appealing to some.
It would be nice if you could have a 12 step section and maybe a general alcoholism section, a drug addiction section, a secular recovery section, etc.

I would suggest this not to segregate the various posters, but to at least give one a place to go as a starting point.

But as one who needs a really focused recovery, I don't know where to post in here without feeling like an alien on another planet. That I way, I can choose to engage or not those that do other things and they can choose to engage or not what I do in my side of the universe.

Does this make any sense?

************************

Some of the nicer comments I got from "over there"...

I read your post very interesting and it sounds like you've been in recovery for a very long time. I was a regular on these boards but recently walked away from all the BS and the fine strokes everyone gives one another. When I got sober in 1989 there was no strokes, you sat down, you shut up and you learned to listen.
It was interesting that you picked that chapter to the wives out of edition 1... I have that one but its in wrap and untouched... I got sober with edition 3.... and I agree AA works....
nice to see an old AA person posting on these boards...

***************

""Good Morning YOu can see the great replies your getting to all that work you put out there in the forums to share...

ha.... don't waste your time, half of the community don't do AA, they don't do anything, I use to share my own ESH with them some years ago, but soon stopped, I don't even reply to any posts there any all anymore..

Hang around, read all there stroking bull ****t and watch them fall like dead birds.

The 'in' crowd call themselves the 'possee' and the big leader is ***, shes sober a long time, but should practice what she preaches..

I met her in person 4 yrs ago on a *** weekend in ***.... all hot air....

anyway, I read what you wrote, and appreciate it...

Enjoy this day...""

****************

"Thank you for your threads and for staying up into the "wee hours" to complete them. I appreciate anyone who is willing to share their EXPERIENCE, strength and hope with us.
Welcome to ***"

******************

quote by McGowdog:
PS: I was on another forum elsewhere and a person from there told me about this site. That's how I came to be here.

But over there... you have to "earn" your right to post via reps


""yeah ,,, i noticed the same thing ,,, very much anti -AA ,,, thats what i invited you here ,,, this is a general recovery site

i didnt however want to announce on the main boards i was the one who invited you here people dont like me much ,, apparently i stomp around and trample feelings ,,, maybe i do ,, maybe thats why not many like me ,,, and yeah it hurts ,, oh well i keep coming back LOL

anyway heres my email ,, you wont be able to respond to me via PM , simply because i had to lock my PM box to stop the vile i was getting from some longterm members here who are still drinking yet pretending they are sober

hmmmm yeah so heres my email ***

take care ,, stay strong ,, and dont let these bastards get you down""

***************

Need I go on?

*************

Uh oh... busted!

""Hi and welcome to ****. I've deleted a few more of your posts as violations of our Community Standards Agreement about insulting other members. We take that one seriously, and we will enforce it in both directions. You are welcome to disagree strongly with other members, but not to put them down personally or tell them what they're allowed to do -- or not -- in the forum.
If more deletions are required, our next step will be to require moderation of your posts or suspend the account.










Thanks for your time.""

*****************

Thanks for my time? R U Serious? Why are you thanking me for my time? You nearly kicked me off your island... exiled me... expelled me! Thanks for my time?

I don't understand that.

I'm confused.

It's like... well it's like... confusing, like a Tiger Woods Christmas Card;
























The sadness of it all...

**************

"" I dont post often but I read every day, and your step threads were absolutely the best. I am very disappointed that you deleted them........good good stuff in there. Please do not allow a few bad apples make you stop being you. ""

***************

""I wish you had not deleted your posts on the steps. I don't know why you did it, but it is done now. If this site is taking away your serenity, then please take care of yourself. ""

**************

""lemme guess? ok?
you've been sober about five years and now you're itchy. getting restless, irritable and discontent. but why? you're mr AA! you know the book frontwards and backwards and you could win any contest naming the aphorisms that clutter the walls of any AA meeting room. You go to so many meetings that you don't really have a life or a personality outside of AA. And that m'friend may be your problem. Sober is a beginning, just a tiny bginning. AA ain't supposed to be a lifestyle, just an adjunct.
peace ula*** (former sufferer of Mr AA syndrome)""









*****************

"" Hi McGowdog,

You were like a shooting star.

I have discovered that *** has some crotchety personalities. *** can be a difficult place for newcomers. I am sorry that they got to you.

I hope you decide to stay but, if you don't, the best way to leave us would be with the legacy of your step posts. Please repost them so I can read them at my leisure and refer people to them in the future.

Best regards, ""











*******************

RE: Please bring back your posts ""I will check out *** I too am looking for meaty and thought provoking conversations.

I agree with you that *** must reflect the forums as the 'old-timers' here want it to be - else, they would have altered the tenor of this place. There are so many unhappy people here, it is sad.

There is a noticeable anti-AA bias which conflicts with ***'s mission statement. It surprised me at first. I guess I have gotten used to it but I doubt that I will ever become a regular poster here.

Take care, ""

***************

""I am just coming back here after along time away, due to wellllll lets just say, things I have absolutely no control over!! lol

Now, why did you delete all your posts. The ones that quoted in other people's posts, are just wonderful and full of Recovery.

Where have you been and will you be posting again?
Hope to see you

Yours in Fellowship ""
***

*************

""Well McGowdog, I wish you the best in your journey, and it truely is the *** community who lost big time...when you left :(

You have a great day, and keep passing on the message of HOPE :)

In Fellowship,
***""

*************

Nice to hear from the silent minority once in a while too.

If you're new to recovery or still drunk and trying to figure it all out... I hope you use your own mind and decide for yourself if A.A. is for you or not.

I have no reason to promote A.A. That's against our traditions anyway. I'd like to get to a place where my actions could "attract" A.A. to those who need it.

Attraction! Yeah, that's the ticket.










































How could a bunch of ex-drunks steer you wrong? These antiAA folks cannot hurt A.A. What they can do is distract some real alcoholics from giving A.A. a shot.

There was a fellowship prior to A.A. that was 18 times the size of A.A. It was called the Washingtonians. They fell apart rapidly because they lacked two things that A.A. had going for it, a program via the 12 steps and a cohesive unity via the 12 traditions. A.A. is still here and going strong. That's the truth.

These antiA.A.ers are losers who have no power in the face to face (f2f) world so they hide behind their keyboards and like to get a reaction out of us. But us A.A. folks are real folks and we have computers too.








So bring it on, punks.

Just left a recovery forum and was asked why

Some on that site pounced on me from the start, sighting spam and flame posting and that I was trying to write my own version of the A.A. program.

So I pulled out. Then people came out of the woodworks to ask me to stay. Oh, they didn't defend me out in the posts... except for the very brave like TJ... maybe a couple of others. But for the most part, these poor posters don't even post anymore themselves. They appreciated my trip up the steps and wanted me to bring them back.

So, I stepped back and just said... "WHAT???? Are you serious?" The powers that be didn't want any part of me over there. You want to see what I'm talking about? Well... I'll show you. This is the kind of A.A. bashing that goes on over there unabated;



"Protecting a person before they get harmed in recovery world is exactly what I'm trying to do. When 95% of people drop out of AA in their first year (AA's numbers), that shows that something is wrong.




















































I was a volunteer peer advocate with a program whose clientele were all dually diagnosed. They had all been through 12step treatment and AA/NA, most several times, all unsuccessfully. I now work in mental health primarily with those who have coexisting substance abuse issues. Together, over five years in the field.







I've run DRA, SOS, and harm reduction groups, each has had their success stories and their failures. All of them have had people who feel they had been harmed by AA/NA.





Besides the anti-medication factor and the 13th steppers which are obvious (and tolerated in the rooms), the philosophy of AA is damaging for many. The idea that addiction isn't the people's fault, that is a disease that they powerless over is seductive. People don't want to admit that their actions led to their addictions, that's the pull of 12step groups. Belief that they are powerless gives them an excuse for relapses.

When people in AA relapse, it is practically scripted that they go out on a full class binge. The Brandsma study showed that binging occurred five times as much with people in 12step treatment as those who received no treatment and nines times more that those who had received rational behavioral therapy.





AA is fear-based program, all the talk of "jails, institutions, and death" and the horror stories of how people who leave die are scare tactics not health coping skills. People, especially those with coexisting disorders, respond better to Motivational Interviewing/Motivational Enhancement than fear.





And some, like myself, could not accept the religious nature of the program. I have had several clients with religious delusions that were all too eager to accept AA religiosity and incorporate it with their own that ended up badly.






It's for these reasons I cannot, in good conscience, suggest AA as a treatment method.















Let's break down a list of claims from above;

• A.A. has a 5% recovery rate based on newcomer dropout after the first year.
• People with dual-diagnosis who claim they've been harmed in A.A./N.A.
• The support for and/or tolerance of denying the AAer from the use of medications
• The support for and/or tolerance of 13 stepping
• The idea that A.A. supports the "addiction" model and that A.A. falsely believes that some people called alcoholics were doomed to become alcoholics despite their actions, thus "powerless" over booze from the start AND that this results in the excuse that they are also "powerless" over any subsequent relapse. When people in A.A. go out in relapse, they purposely go on a tear and follow some premeditated script due to their "brainwashing" from A.A. indoctrination.
• A.A. is fear-based and those in the fellowship are threatened to stay or they will face "jails, institutions, or death."
• A.A. is a religious program and does not mix with the prospect's own prior convictions.
• A.A. cannot be, in good conscience, be recommended as a method of treatment.

That 5% recovery rate is an example of the bashing from those in the antiAA industry...aka those earning a buck on your plight that are "vehemently antiA.A. as opposed to those who were fundamental program followers and found it to be a 75% recovery rate. They claim the numbers come from within A.A. archives... as if A.A. would be able to measure such a stat.

"Of course, this doesn’t really tell the whole story, as many people will leave AA after being first introduced to it, and then later return once they have truly been beaten by their alcoholism. Most people who are a success story in AA tell of how they struggled–sometimes for years–going in and out of AA before they finally “got it.”"

My personal experience with the thing is this; I have always made it more than a year when I came into A.A. and did the A.A. program via the 12 Steps. So for me, the Program has a 300% success rate. You stupid antiA.A. fools. Get a new statistician and stop watching Penn & Teller Bullshit and passing it off as education.

...

Dual diagnosis; Don't know what to tell ya. Maybe you're right. In my A.A. group, we don't fool with dual-diagnosis. We send them elsewhere. People with dual-diagnosis tend to fall back on the other problem when the heat gets too great on the one. Either you're alcoholic or you're not. A.A. is for alcoholics. Period! No one else. Just alkies. I would question the "Professional" that made the dual-diagnosis in the first place and I would question the treatment center that tagged the client as an alcoholic/drug addict/ a drug is a drug is a drug bullshit. Either you're an alcoholic or you're not and it's up to you to diagnose yourself... according to A.A. A.A. gives the potential client the dignity to find that out for themselves.

My experience based on what I've seen; my oldest brother is a paranoid schizophrenic. He is not a drug addict and he is not an alcoholic. He does like to get high once in a while though. He does not go to A.A. nor does he go to N.A. Why? Because, for one thing, he is given the dignity to decide that for himself. Nobody forces him to go into A.A. or N.A. Oh, and he doesn't break the law too often. You break the law, and the state, county, or feds will decide you are not allowed to drink booze or do mind altering drugs anymore. Then of those, some are given the "opportunity" to try 12 Step to help with their subsequent abstinence. They are not "forced into A.A." They are merely given the choice; A.A. or Bubba. Would you like to see SMART, RR, LR, SOS, etc. get a crack at these fine folks? Yes? Well so would I. I'll get to work on that.

...

13 Stepping; Note to newcomers in A.A. ... keep your legs crossed. You have the right to not spread your legs. The steps stop after 12. We've tried to tell you to not date within the first year, to have women work only with women, to not shout, to not pout, to be a good boy. We have not yet been able to control the wrong-doings of others... and sometimes ourselves. But to say that 13 Stepping is tolerated or encouraged... that's just a flat out lie.

My experience, my group doesn't even currently have any women in it now. They come to our meeting from time to time and ask if it's a stag meeting. We say "No. You are welcome... so long as you are an alcoholic and want to do something about it." There's another meeting I go to where they have a lot of women, a lot of people who date within their own gender, etc. Why that is, IDK. I guess they feel safe there, but it's a good meeting that is focussed on the A.A. program via the 12 Steps. If I saw someone in the A.A. program going after someone who was new, female, vulnerable, etc., I'd get in their face about it and warn the other party about it as best I could. I've not seen this in a long time.

To say that A.A. corners the market in predatory behavior is a flat out lie and would like to see how the "Professional Community" fares on such matters. Naw, not really. I got better shit to do. Like being a husband to my wife and cleaning my own side of the street.

...

We in A.A. do believe we are powerless over alcohol physically and mentally... once we put it into our body we react physically different than the norm and once separated from booze, we react differently to the 1st drink than others. That's A.A.'s stance. A.A. did not come about as yet one of many successful solutions for the alcoholic. It came about as the only thing that would work. And A.A. is still here today because it's the only thing that works for real alcoholics. Alcoholism is not an addiction. The word "addiction" being linked to alcoholism came about in about 1991 when insurance co-pay got into the game. Alcoholics are not addicts, alcoholism is not a disease, and alcohol is not a drug; it is food. Let's get on the same page and talk the same language. Then maybe the success rates for alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. will increase.

...

Relapse is not part of the A.A. Program and it never was. That's treatment center bullshit and is also perpetuated by the thought that once you forget the pain, relapse begins. It's bullshit and it came from you doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, therapists, etc. Own up to it and shut your holes about it.

The truth in the matter is that some alcoholics come to A.A. and are never shown the Program... aka the doing of the steps... and they go back out and drink again and what happens is usually sad. How dare you make fun of this tragic event and use it to bash A.A. you stupid punk. I'm a real fucking alcoholic and I've gone back out and drank again and it always gets worse. What's your experience with drinking booze?

...

A.A. is fear-based and the threat of going back out will result in "jails, institutions, and death?" That's complete bullshit too. At least it is in my Step-working group. If you want to go back out or leave A.A., you're welcome to it. But for some of those real alcoholics that did, the results is sometimes "jails, institutions, and death". Now that's the truth. And that may bother some of you. Some non alcoholics that got hustled into A.A. from treatment centers left A.A. and did fine.

A good A.A. group will help a potential client find out if they are alcoholic or not, and be invited to leave if they're not. Why? Because A.A. is a spiritual based program founded on the Truth and you cannot build a spiritual life based on a fundamental lie. If you're not an alcoholic and try to pass yourself off as one, you will get sick, not better. THAT'S WHY WE DON'T HUSTLE NON-ALCOHOLICS INTO A.A. FROM THE GET-GO. A.A. IS FOR JUST ALKIES.

As alcoholics get older, their livers, pancreas', and kidneys get older, not newer. So for that reason, if they go back out and drink again, it always gets worse, never better. Does this not make any sense to you in the medical field? It should. I know it for a fact because I've experienced it in my own life. Oh, but let's not dare call it a disease! That would offend those folks with real diseases!

...

A.A. is a religious program that does not mix with a prospect's existing convictions? Not my experience at all. In fact, let's talk about a prospects existing convictions? How well did God separate the prospect from booze prior to A.A.?

Not so good, huh? You want to know why? Two simple words... get ready for a theology lesson you dorks... Free Will!

This is why priests, rabbi's, ministers, other clergy come to A.A. to find that contact with their God so they can follow a "few simple rules" which will enable that God to remove the obsession to drink from them and enable them to find a life which is once again useful and whole. Oh, and it's where the doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist, counselor, etc. will go to dispell the myths of recovery and enable the real alcoholic that needs it to seek help.

...

Frankly, A.A. was given a lot of support from clergy and medical professionals and we started off as "friends". Then these "friends" got greedy and A.A. stayed consistent and the alcoholic hasn't changed a lick, nor has booze, nor has human nature... so if anything has skewed the recovery stats for A.A., I'd say it's been the greed of the Alcoholism Industry.

Where are those abused in A.A. to go?

FTG: Based on what I see in the list of search terms that people use to find our blog, I know that our visitors are righteously pissed off about their experiences in AA. And those are precisely the people we’re here for. They are why we created this blog. But, there’s no censorship on Stinkin’ Thinkin (unless you pull a McGowdog and cut/paste the same 3 words over and over again for a half an hour straight and then hit “post” when you get a hand cramp – in which case we will probably just edit you down a bit so that people can get the gist of your argument without having to take a nap on the scroll button. McGowdog might hate our guts, but it’s not because we didn’t let him speak his mind or give him a fair shake.). What I mean is that the floor is yours. You will never be deleted. Speak your piece.

McGowdog didn't spend 30 minutes cutting and pasting. He used the binary method; cut and paste a few, then recut and paste what you've done a few times, then repeat and in less than a minute, you've annoyed your bloggers.




I went on to make amends to ftg and she graciously accepted, then told me she would continue to bad-mouth us nonetheless and that they like to debate over there. I don't debate this recovery stuff. It's just life and death for some of us and we don't mess around with it. So ftg said they were snakes over there and I believed them and walked away as she slithered off.

If you can stay sober on rational thought, do it. If you can stay sober on kind thoughts, do it. If you can stay sober on love thy neighbor, do it. Then if that works, please don't go to A.A. and get bent on their suggestions and/or directions and spare them your opinions of it. There's a lot of middle of the road/slogan garbage in A.A. That stuff may be helpful to the hard drinker and the lonely misfit, but it doesn't work for some alcoholics that may need a spiritual experience.

Dog A.A.'s suggestions to a spiritual experience all you want. A.A. is not a theology, a philosophy, and it's not a cult or a dogma. A.A. is merely a set of instructions. If you do certain things, you get a certain result. A.A. works, and it works everytime for alcoholics.

A.A. was built on a foundation of one drunk talking to another drunk. When you realize the simplicity of it, and the fact that those afflicted are solely responsible for their own recovery, they lose their value to a whole industry built up around them. Imagine all the paychecks that are signed off as a result of an alcoholic that is

A) drinking

and

B) still alive.

The problem is, alcoholics have a nasty way of dying, so they run out of root stock. It's the non-alcoholics that get hustled into A.A. that causes the problem.

So these poor abused victims that are in A.A., did they get sentenced into A.A. beyond their own will? Were they court ordered? Were they hustled in? I know some people that DON'T go to A.A. They aren't alcoholics or anything, but they don't go. And they don't bitch about A.A. either. What a concept, huh? If I went to PTA meetings, being that I don't have any children, I'd be confused and lost too. I might even eventually be asked to participate and give of my time. Then about 2 years later, I could be a victim too and say, YOU PTA BASTARDS HAVE WASTED MY LIFE!!!!!!! Then I could be a victim like you losers.

I am a real recovered alcoholic and I go to a meeting about twice a week. You loser dorks go to an Anti-A.A. meeting every day. It's called Stinkin' Thinkin'.