Chops from SR has started a thread called "Question"

Chops from SR says,

Question
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Trying to get something straight in my head.


It seems that most people in here who are in AA and follow the suggested program of the 12 steps support our brother and sister alcoholics who have found an alternate way to stay sober.


They are recovering / have recovered through another spiritual approach.


But the minute they step into AA and are not working the steps they are now unrecovered or a crazy or dry or a dry drunk, just abstinent etc. ?

So Alcoholic "A" has their own program and it has worked for him and he is content with that, "A" decides to go to AA for the fellowship, the company, who knows, the coffee or whatever. He decides not to engage in the 12 steps. Maybe he shares what worked for him. Does he then go from the category of someone who is recovered through alternative means to someone who is just dry because he walked into AA?


I swear I am not trolling:-) I am trying to get my head around this.


So there are other ways to recover but if you are in AA there is only one way? And how does that jive with the whole fact that you are a member of AA if you say you are.

Then after some reasonable responses, the OP's tone changes expectedly, and goes to this;

So other recovery methods are cool but just stay out of our house. :-)

Quote: Given by a proA.A.er;

We do a real disservice to the newcomer and to AA, however, when our meetings contain a confusing number of ideas and methods. As a home group member, it is my responsibility to make sure my group sticks on topic and sticks to the solution contained in the BB.

The results of not sticking to this common solution are obvious to anyone in AA. Wander over to the newcomer section and read of the hundreds of people all pursuing their own solution who continually relapse and can't stay sober. And then compare it to the results of those who take the 12 Steps and continue to live by spiritual principles. I don't see that latter group relapsing every few months.

I really do want the hand of AA to be there for the next guy. I believe our program of recovery is a life saver for the hopeless alcoholic. If that message is lost in the sea of everyone's personal opinion on how to stay sober, that hand doesn't reach many people.

Then Chops, the OP translates the above to this, after it gets filtered through his anti/XAer head;

YG says;

What anyone else does is of no real concern of mine but im not going to let the next me come in and get dead because of someone elses opinions who looks good in meetings....its like the pied piper of hamlin sometimes...lets follow him off the cliff he plays a great tune!

Then M says;

Chops, people think what they think. Spending one more second trying to figure out why people think the way they do is purely a waste of time. You'll never come up with an answer because there is no answer. Take care of your own thinking and stop worrying about what others do.

Then Chops responds;

You assume someone else's method will lead them off the cliff.


M, yeah solid advice, I am more baffled than before:-)


Onward and forward....


thanks

Hey Chops, do you want other peoples' opinions or not?  You do, but then you want to try to bash them in with your anti/XAers Orange tools you've been given. 
_________________________________________

Now... my take;

If you don't like A.A. for any reason, you're welcome to try something else.  You can go hijack an A.A. meeting/group and impress your other methods upon those in there if you'd like.

Truth be told, in most meetings around the world, you'll be welcomed with open arms.  There are probably very few groups in the world statistically... that actually work the A.A. program.  You hear middle of the road all the time in most meetings.  I know this for a fact because I've seen it high and low; "Just don't drink, no matter what."  "You have to really want it."  "Keep coming back."

In groups where they work steps, they say things like "What brings you here?"  and "What makes you think you're an alcoholic?"  And... "What do you drink like?  Tell us about you and booze."  and... "Maybe you're not an alcoholic.  You ever think of that?"

Now, if you want to find another way to get and stay sober, that's great.  This should take the burden off, not add to it.  But go start your own damned meeting.  Or go to one of the existing MOTR meetings that are so prevalent in the real world.  But don't focus your beady little eyes and point your miserly little fingers at the Big Book Thumper when he steps up and says, "Fine for you.  But that shit does not work for me.  I do what's in this book.  Do what's in this book with me and we can rap about it.  But until then, I'm not interested in your opinion of what I do."

Chops:

I consider you a friend dude, so I can say it like this, will you post a link citing a source of where you get the current numbers on AA success rates or have you just heard and said a number so many times that your starting to believe it as truth?



Seriously Mk, point me to the statistical study that can show me World Wide AA success rates.........


We have no spiritual monopoly dude, our basic text states it, we only have a way that worked for us. Assuming that other methods are failing to keep others sober smacks of BS.


If our message is so strong then why do we need to denigrate other messages.
 
Then a MOTRer from the Old School pipes in;

i Just Thank God i am Not a BB Thumper.. i have had more than a few People at A.A. tell me they Like my "Attitude" (i have an Open Mind) i have No Business Trying to "Make" anyone Find their Own Path to Lasting Happy Sobriety..

Hey, what we need to do is get rid of the A.A. program and throw those God-fearin' Faith Healing Big Book Thumpers out of A.A. and out of recovery.  They have no right.  We should pour booze down their throats too because they have no business even being sober.  They have no right!

Oh, and Keep It Green!

MOTR

Things within the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous... and without... that bother me;

1. Lower your expectations.
2. We stay sober, one day at a time. All we have is today.
3. My disease is out in the parking lot doing push-ups. Yeah? And your brain is on the couch eating cheesy puffs watching porno, asshole. What the fuck's your point?
4. 90 meetings in 90 days
5. Keep coming back.
6. What you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here... hear hear. Yeah, right!
7. Just don't drink. Go to meetings.
8. Don't let the God talk run you out.
9. Hold onto your ass, because you're in for a ride.
10. Cotton.
11. Addiction.
12. Using.
13. Clean.
14. I'm an...anda...
15. Nobody gets here by mistake.
16. Powerless over my disease
17. I can't, God can, let Him. Let Him do what? Wipe my ass? Throw Sober Bolts at my whiskey bottle? How about this? RTFM. Read the Fucking Manual. DTFD.
18. Alcohol is a drug.
19. The Program works me.
20. You gotta change your playmates, playthings and playpens.
21. The only thing you have to change is everything. How about this? Life is like a diaper. Let someone else change it.
22. Think through the drink.
23. Let us love you until you can love yourself.
24. Steps? Oh, those are up there on the wall.
25. Get a sponsor. Tell your sponsor. What's your sponsor say? My sponsor says...
26. The short form of the 3rd Tradition.
27. There's nothing that can come to me today that God can't handle. Oh yeah? What if this is the day you die? I'm just sayin... look both ways.
28. But for the Grace of God there go I. What are you sayin? Look at that poor sap. Glad it's his dead ass and not me.
29. Journal.
30. Sick as our secrets.
31. How are you doing today? Oh, do you really want to fucking know? You got time? Or are you just making small talk? My life is fucked up but I'm seeking a spiritual solution. I'm sober today. And you?
32. You can start your day anytime. Oh yeah? Why not just start at the beginning?
33. We're not bad people. Were just sick people trying to get well.
34. Does anyone have a topic? Chair the fucking meeting.
35. When I came into my first A.A. meeting, I already did step one. Bullshit.
36. I do living amends by staying sober and going to A.A. Really? Most people I know outside of A.A. could give a crap. I get no points for doing what I should already be doing.
37. I've been sober in A.A. for XX years and I'm still recovering.
38. The promises. Oh, you love to read those, huh? How about the 10th Step promises for a change?
39. My worst day sober is better than my best day drunk.
40. I have a disease that tells me I don't have a disease. Not so fucking fast. Are you alky or not?
41. You're exactly where you're supposed to be. Oh rly? Well can I tear the Dr's Opinion and the next 43 pages out of my fucking A.A. book now? Is qualifying for A.A. as easy as your gf? Ooh... that was low.
42. Your best thinking got you here.
43. Nobody is too dumb for the program, but there's plenty of people who were too smart. O.K. I believe you. You are the poster child for that one.
44. If you want what we have... Just make sure old Charlie the Gimp doesn't greet people at the door with that one.
45. Be careful what you pray for. Oh really? Should I buy a Powerball ticket today or what? Come enjoy in my misery if I win. Yeah, right.
46. Sick and tired of being sick and tired. Oh, well I'm sick and tired of hearing that.
47. Wait for the miracle. Oh yeah? What happened to "my serenity being directly proportional to my expectations" and "acceptance is the key today"? Which one is it? You're confusing the fuck out of me now.
48. Jails, institutions, or death. Oh, the old FEAR motivator. Nice. Is that A.A. or N.A.?
49. ...to be continued

A "non alcoholic" in A.A.'s experience is almost like mine!

Here is what an A.A. imposter says about A.A.;





After 13 years in AA I am no longer identifying as an alcoholic or going to as many meetings. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. I am going to one meeting a week and telling people that ask what I did not what I think.

I bought the programming when I was new and stayed sober in cult like fashion taking no responsibility for myself.

Today I stay sober knowing that…

I am not an alcoholic.

I am not powerless over alcohol.

I am not bodily and mentally different from my fellows.

I have done stupid things but am not insane.

I do not have to completely give myself to this simple program.

AA is a recovery venue where it is completely inappropriate to date.*

AA is sexually charged and it is inappropriate for men to sponsor women.*

Platitudes, euphemisms, jargon, rhymes, sayings, slogans, rhetoric, absolutes, old timer gurus, and group think, are all things of cults.

Sponsorship is dangerous. I do not know a single sponsor who has not taken on the role of life coach.*

I have learned much about human nature by going to meetings. Human instinct, breeding, networking, opportunism, control, etc. In Alanon I acquired tools that can be used as weapons or defense against would be steppers.*

As with all things, I now use AA in moderation. I do not drink because I appreciate my health today and do not want to trade a couple hours of intoxication for any clouded judgment or illness.

This is my 12th step.




First of all, if you're not identifying as an alcoholic, why waste the buck? Why go to A.A. at all? Are you such a misfit loser that you can't hang out at the gym or the mall? Well... whatever.

Next, you say something about "only requirement". That's wrong to begin with. You're looking at the short form wall scroll. Here's the 3rd Tradition;

"Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation."

That's your 3rd Tradtion. A requirement to stop drinking is evidently the Swiss Cheese requirement; too many holes.

Going to one meeting a week and telling people what I did and not what I think sounds fantastic. I totally agree with this and this is what I do too.

You bought the programming when you were new and stayed sober in cult-like fashion? Wow! My experience too. But something funny happened to me. I heard a guy speak at our MOTR meeting one night and he sounded different than the rest... like he really knew what he was talking about, what a real alcoholic drinks like, and what the real Program of Alcoholics Anonymous is really about. He was the first one to ask me what I drank like. He made me really look at how I really drank booze.

See... you might not even be an alcoholic and only think you are. You might be a hard drinker who can... control the amount once you start... or stay stopped on your own power when you really want/need to. There are many like this in A.A. now. No one ever really "qualified them" like Bob and Bill did way back when.

Some people are just lonely and have nothing better to do than to come to A.A. and let them hustle you in. Who would do this? Other real alcoholics? Heck no! The other people who have also been hustled in... like from treatment centers. You know? The whole "a drug is a drug is a drug" thing?

If you really don't need A.A. to get and stay sober, please stay away... please. You're killing people. You're embarking on a spiritual program that demands rigorous honesty based on a fundamental lie... you're not alcoholic. If you're not alcoholic, please go somewhere else; Good Will, the Salvation Army, Stinkin' Thinkin', work with lepers. Do something. Deliver the newspaper.

As far as taking responsibility for yourself, you should have done that 13 years ago. I took responsibility for myself and found a group of alcoholics who did nothing but fundamental and orthodox A.A. out of the book. They don't study or pontificate the book. We just do what it says and discuss our experience in it and are sober as a result. It's really that simple. Yet, you belong to a blog that dedicates it's waking hours to bash a free but spiritual program? Ummm... That is special! You... are special!

You are not alcoholic... you probably have no clue what a real alcoholic looks like. You probably couldn't tell the difference between a hard continuous drinker or a real alcoholic.

You are not powerless over alcohol... neither am I. I took the A.A. treatment and it worked. Alcohol is not my problem today. If I lie to you, it's because I'm a liar, not because I'm powerless or sick, or because I had too much to drink.

A.A. IS NOT NOR HAS IT EVER CLAIMED ALCOHOLISM TO BE AN ADDICTION OR A DISEASE. ALCOHOLICS ARE NOT DRUG ADDICTS, MORAL DEFECTS, OR SKID-ROW BUMS. ALCOHOLICS DO NOT HAVE WEAK WILLS. ALCOHOLICS ALWAYS WERE AND ALWAYS WILL BE... AT THE RATE OF ABOUT 10% OF THE HUMAN POPULATION.

You are not bodily and mentally different from your fellows? Probably not. You are probably bodily and mentally different from real alcoholics though. So why continue to bother with them? Are you an unrecovered alanon?

Oh! Alanon Joke Alert: Hear about the new alanon doll? You throw it against the wall and it says, "I still love you."*

Sorry, that was bad. I will follow that up with another Alanon Joke; How many alanons does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None. They just detach and let it screw itself. =)

I have done stupid things but am not insane? Me neither. But when I have reached for a bottle of bourbon knowing what it once did to me and do it as if there is nothing wrong with this picture is pure and complete insanity. If you don't believe that, you don't know what an alcoholic is. You should read Melody Beattie. You're in the wrong fellowship.

I do not have to give myself to this simple program? No you don't. Sorry to be rude, but get lost, ok?

A.A. is a recovery venue where it is completely innapropriate to date? That's probably true and good advice, but do me a favor. Save your breath. You tell some sick woman to not spread her legs for any reason and that's the first thing she will do to spite your ass. She's probably bouncing up and down on your boyfriend, your husband, your brother, your dad, your son, and looking at your dog. Who are you to tell people who to date? God?*

A.A.... men should not sponsor women? True that. If I sponsored a woman, my wife would get jealous. That wouldn't work for me. I'm way too good looking anyway. And um... get this; I don't believe in sponsorship. I did a set of steps and have been sponsor free ever since. It's your responsibility to get a sponsor if you must and to choose who will sponsor you. If you do get a sponsor, all they should do is sit you down and talk about their own drinking and listen to you talk about your own drinking and see if you identify with a real alcoholic and whether you fit in or not. If you're not a real alcoholic, leave. If you are, do the 12 steps and then go try to help the new drunk. THAT'S IT! NO TIME FOR FUCKING, SPREADING YOUR LEGS OR BEING A VICTIM! Wow! You make a big deal out of this. If women spread their legs, they need to take responsibility for their own actions and quit bitching to the world about how they're a victim! Why? Because if they don't get screwed in A.A., they'll get screwed a block or two away! Good luck with that.*

Slogans and all that other garbage are a cult? Agreed. Either that or laziness. This is what I call MOTR (Middle of the Road) and it's not A.A. It's B.B. or treatment center garbage. Don't blame A.A. for this. Blame your own closed mindes for this garbage.

Sponsorship is dangerous... life coach? Yeah. I agree. Do a set of steps and become sponsor free. I belong to a group that doesn't believe in it. But we will gladly sit a person down and help them find out if they belong in A.A. or not, if they want to quit drinking for good and all, and if they are willing to do some work out of the book A.A. If not, we send them away.*

You learned about human nature and alanonism? Then you learned this; "He took a drink and I felt better." If your parents or siblings are alcoholic, get growed up and run away. If your spouse is alcoholic, dump them and get a normie. If you attract alcoholics to yourself and find yourself always a victim, that's your problem. You can get help for that in alanon. But even still, you think the A.A. program is full of sick people who don't do steps? What makes you think Alanot is any better?*

This is your 12 Step? You're terminally unique, just like everybody else. You're not an alcoholic. Please stop going to A.A. and 12-Stepping.

* Disclaimer; I am merely a recovered alcoholic here. I have never been abused sexually and rarely any other way and am not an expert against such abuse nor am I insensitive to it. It's merely not my experience. If you need counseling or help for this, get professional help. The only thing I would ever bring to A.A. is to find someone who had my tragic experience and who has gotten free from it themselves. And again, A.A. is not the end-all be-all of life. It's for drunks.

Here's what A.A. says about sex on pages 68, 69, and 70;

Now about sex... Then we have the voices who cry for sex and more sex; who bewail the institution of marriage; who think that most of the troubles of the race are traceable to sex causes... We want to stay out of this controversy. We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct. We all have sex problems. We'd hardly be human if we didn't. What can we do about them?

...

We review our own sex conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.

In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test-was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed.

God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel with other persons is often desireable, but we let God be the final judge We realize that some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical thinking or advice...

...

That's what the book says about sex and I'm proud to be a part of this Program. There's nothing in A.A. that would lead anybody to harm.

Blaming A.A. for any kind of harm is like Oprah blaming her fork for her weight. It's like trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents.

Where are those abused in A.A. to go?

FTG: Based on what I see in the list of search terms that people use to find our blog, I know that our visitors are righteously pissed off about their experiences in AA. And those are precisely the people we’re here for. They are why we created this blog. But, there’s no censorship on Stinkin’ Thinkin (unless you pull a McGowdog and cut/paste the same 3 words over and over again for a half an hour straight and then hit “post” when you get a hand cramp – in which case we will probably just edit you down a bit so that people can get the gist of your argument without having to take a nap on the scroll button. McGowdog might hate our guts, but it’s not because we didn’t let him speak his mind or give him a fair shake.). What I mean is that the floor is yours. You will never be deleted. Speak your piece.

McGowdog didn't spend 30 minutes cutting and pasting. He used the binary method; cut and paste a few, then recut and paste what you've done a few times, then repeat and in less than a minute, you've annoyed your bloggers.




I went on to make amends to ftg and she graciously accepted, then told me she would continue to bad-mouth us nonetheless and that they like to debate over there. I don't debate this recovery stuff. It's just life and death for some of us and we don't mess around with it. So ftg said they were snakes over there and I believed them and walked away as she slithered off.

If you can stay sober on rational thought, do it. If you can stay sober on kind thoughts, do it. If you can stay sober on love thy neighbor, do it. Then if that works, please don't go to A.A. and get bent on their suggestions and/or directions and spare them your opinions of it. There's a lot of middle of the road/slogan garbage in A.A. That stuff may be helpful to the hard drinker and the lonely misfit, but it doesn't work for some alcoholics that may need a spiritual experience.

Dog A.A.'s suggestions to a spiritual experience all you want. A.A. is not a theology, a philosophy, and it's not a cult or a dogma. A.A. is merely a set of instructions. If you do certain things, you get a certain result. A.A. works, and it works everytime for alcoholics.

A.A. was built on a foundation of one drunk talking to another drunk. When you realize the simplicity of it, and the fact that those afflicted are solely responsible for their own recovery, they lose their value to a whole industry built up around them. Imagine all the paychecks that are signed off as a result of an alcoholic that is

A) drinking

and

B) still alive.

The problem is, alcoholics have a nasty way of dying, so they run out of root stock. It's the non-alcoholics that get hustled into A.A. that causes the problem.

So these poor abused victims that are in A.A., did they get sentenced into A.A. beyond their own will? Were they court ordered? Were they hustled in? I know some people that DON'T go to A.A. They aren't alcoholics or anything, but they don't go. And they don't bitch about A.A. either. What a concept, huh? If I went to PTA meetings, being that I don't have any children, I'd be confused and lost too. I might even eventually be asked to participate and give of my time. Then about 2 years later, I could be a victim too and say, YOU PTA BASTARDS HAVE WASTED MY LIFE!!!!!!! Then I could be a victim like you losers.

I am a real recovered alcoholic and I go to a meeting about twice a week. You loser dorks go to an Anti-A.A. meeting every day. It's called Stinkin' Thinkin'.