Alcohol Recovery Blog... Well, not so much any more. I've lost all of my support over the last several years obviously. Nobody wants to go head to head with the Anti/XAers anymore. Seems that most have jumped off of the A.A. "bandwagon" all together. I've lost my resolve as well. Still sober 20+ years though. So there is that.
In A.A., who is responsible to facilitate who belongs in the A.A. fellowship and who do not belong? Who is responsible to facilitate where to send alcoholics who are not done drinking? Do we tell the prospect that we suspect that they are probably not alcoholic and direct them to some other place? If so, where? Do we give them a pamphlet, a slogan... such as "Put the Plug in the Jug", a bus pass, and send them packing? Or do we tell them that we cannot identify with them, but tell them to keep an open mind and keep coming back until they find out otherwise? If they're thirsty, do we buy them a jug and uncork it for them? Do we tell the alcoholics who will not do steps to go to some other program? Like Life Ring or... the Salvation Army? Is this the responsibility of the "sponsor" or do we give the newcomer the dignity to take responsibility for themselves? Is A.A. not just passively letting the courts, treatment centers, medical field, clergy, etc. provide prospects that may or may not be a good fit?
You're either alcoholic or you're not. A.A. has a process to find this out. Get in or get out. Maybe you are being punished for being a law breaker and you are being forced to A.A. Maybe you have some back problems and you're being "coerced" into A.A. You got a wife on your back, or a husband on your back or a boss/company on your back. Well go to your meetings, get your papers signed, then meet back here once the heat is off, and decide... in or out. If A.A. is not your thing, can you physically decide... for yourself... in or out? Is A.A. like the Navy Seals during Hell Week? Is the peer pressure so tough that you cannot decide for yourself whether A.A. is for you or not? Must you go for 19 years before you decide that A.A. is a nasty and dangerous cult and that there is a better way?If this is your case, Mike, I suggest you go to the "Drama" section of Blockbuster Video, and rent some Shakespeare plays... and some popcorn... maybe some Goobers and Mike and Ikes. I see anti/XAers and the claims they make. Then they say that someday, courts and the alcoholism industry will stop meddling into the lives of others and stop forcing people to this place called A.A. They say that something better than A.A. will come about and A.A. will go by the wayside... much like the Washingtonians. What killed the Washingtonians? Did it not implode from within? I'm not so sure that an outside force will kill A.A. In fact, a certain percentage of the anti/XAers out there seem to be of the same belief; A.A. needs to not be forced upon people... such as from the courts. But as some pro-A.A.ers have observed... those fine folks from the courts see it as the best option STILL! Why haven't the anti/XAers come up with something better, some better game plan, than "Not A.A."?
For the next six months at least decide that you will stick to a certain number of drinks a day, that number to be not less than one and not more than three. If you are not a daily drinker, then the test should be the stated number of drinks from one to three, on those days when you do drink. Some heavy drinkers confine their drinking to weekends, but still worry about the amount they consume then. Whatever number you choose must not be exceeded under any circumstances whatever, and this includes weddings, births, funerals, occasions of sudden death and disaster, unexpected or long-awaited inheritance, promotion, or other happy events, reunions or meetings with old friends or good customers, or just sheer boredom. There must also be no special occasions on which you feel justified in adding to your quota of the stated number of drinks, such as a severe emotional upset, or the appointment to close the biggest deal of your career, or the audition you've been waiting for all your life, or the meeting with someone who is crucial to your future and of whom you are terrified. Absolutely no exceptions, or the test has been failed. This is not an easy test, but it has been passed handily by any number of drinkers who wished to show themselves, or their families and friends, that they were not compulsive drinkers. If by any chance they failed the test, showing that they were alcoholics, they showed themselves, too, that they were, whether they were then ready to admit it openly or not. At least it prepared them for such an admission, and for the constructive action which normally follows that admission.
I'm gonna cut and paste what appears to be a friendly exchange between myself and someone from "over there". I want to respond to them, but not there. I'm getting tired of being picked apart, called names, accused of all the back and forth from the past.
Someone from over there says,"McGD – I’m serious here, so don’t be offended. It seems you too have some frustrations about the way AA has evolved and would like to see some changes. I think most people on this site would be in agreement that changes are needed. I am all for an AA that is truly honest and upfront with the fact it is a religious organization and it should be devoid of coerced attendance. People have a right to know what they are “joining” and if they know the facts and join anyway, so be it. It would be good for AA to have only volunteers for a variety of reasons. At some level what we have in common is a desire to change AA, so how do we build on that as opposed to exchanging vitriolic barbs? Your idea of 3 types of AA was a great start and it showed you are thinking about many of the same issues as others here. I think if there were a thread asking, “Exactly what do you want changed in AA ?”, you might be amazed at the commonality of ideas in the responses. Keep comin back, we all learn from each other, for better or worse.
I'm not offended. I'm not too crazy about the A.A. that I see and the A.A. that some big book thumpers and other mentors of mine had told me about "the way it was." But... looking at our "Three Views of Recovery" bit that I posted earlier, it calms me quite a bit to see that this is the reality of it and we can at least step back, look at it and see it for what it is. I took that from anothers post btw. I didn't know the source of it, so I googled the first few lines of it and found the source of this "Three Views of Recovery" at StepStudy.Org. I will post that after this bit. It appears to come from an anonymous author.
Now, if there was an A.A.1 and an A.A.2, and an A.A.3, there would be no need for A.A. to come out and claim itself to be "a religion". We conversionists or "spiritual" folks could do A.A. as it's laid out in the book. The .2 and .3 folks could continue doing what they're already doing in A.A. (and outside of A.A. of course) and we could then maybe better understand and perhaps even serve each other. If you want a more secular and/or more scientific approach, there ya go. You can rewrite that A.A. book or write a new one if you'd like. Put the studies of naltrexone or this new pill that mixes that with an antidepressant into that program and have professional counseling rather than one-on-one sponsorship.
Then, someone else from over there says, "Actually, I think that AA is whatever a person wants it to be. A person can go to AA because he wants a face to face contact with people with the same problem; a person can get a sponsor and work the steps with that person; a person can do the steps by himself; a person does not need to do the steps at all; a person can revise the steps to suit himself; a person can go to AA in order to get out of the house, instead of going to the bar. A person can consider it a religion if he wants; a person can decide that AA saved his life if he wants.A problem arises when a person goes to AA not knowing what he wants and he has run out of self control and expects AA to provide that control. A problem arises what that person can not distinguish bad actors from decent people and chooses the bad actor. AA can be useful if a person knows exactly what he wants, what he expects from AA, and how to get it from AA. A paradox: AA can help if he does not actually need the help of AA."
And then that person later said that it was all sarcasm, so... we'll just let it go at that.
Currently, there are three major conflicting views on the nature of recovery. One view states that recovery is the result of a religious conversion experience. Another holds that recovery is really the process of re-socializing oneself to a community of sober addicts. A third view maintains that recovery happens when addicts expose and treat the underlying psychological causes of addiction.
The Conversion Experience View This view of recovery understands the Conversion Experience as a psychological process defined by philosopher and psychologist William James. In his The Varieties of Religious Experience, James stated that conversion is a process by which “a self hitherto divided, and consciously wrong, inferior and unhappy, becomes unified and consciously right superior and happy, in consequence of its firmer hold on religious realities” According to James, the conversion experience is a huge displacement and rearrangement of the convert’s personality. This internal reorganization is not just a passing experience, instead, a whole new and stable attitude is established. “the new ideas that reach the center in the rearrangement seem now to be locked there, and the new structure remains permanent.” For the addict, this means that the former center of his life—the obsession to use—is now discarded and replaced by a sense of personal spirituality. The Conversion Experience View of recovery believes that this kind of radical change in the personality is necessary for true recovery to take place. The Twelve Steps are seen as a tool for creating Conversion Experiences without the intrusion of organized religion. In the Steps, an addict can have a powerful experience, and interpret it however he or she pleases. Therefore, Conversion Experience is often referred to as a Spiritual Experience, and the program is called “spiritual not religious.” While working the Twelve Steps in a Conversion Experience style, the addict will make a total surrender of both will and life to a Power that heals the addict’s mind. A moral inventory is taken to root out and expose the addict’s primary trouble—selfishness. Amends and Twelfth Step work are designed to relieve the addict of self-concern and encourage a compassion for others. In this compassion, the Conversionists find themselves guided by a real and living Spiritual Power. Meetings, in the Conversion Experience View, are a chance for recovered addicts to give testimony to the Power of the Steps and invite newcomers to work the Steps with a sponsor. Meetings are not a time to “share” or “check-in.” Instead, they are a time for those who have had a Spiritual Awakening to offer their services to those who have not. Outcomes anticipated for people in recovery are very high in the Conversion Experience View. People who work the Steps successfully, are expected to find emotional well-being, freedom from mental obsession, and a deep sense of peace that comes from having a spiritual purpose in life. As long as the recovered person continues to help others, his or her sense of well-being is expected to increase. The times of real pain and anguish that are to be expected in life (when a loved one dies for example) are expected to bring the recovered person deeper into dependence upon their Spiritual Source, and so, while painful, will improve the addict’s spiritual life. The Conversion Experience View exists in many of the Twelve Step fellowships, but is most commonly seen as the View of Alcoholics Anonymous member who strongly advocate for the AA Big Book. Sometimes called “Book Thumpers” or “Program Nazis,” these AA members have a reputation for being conservative and intolerant in the way they express their View. From their own point of view however, the Big Book advocates are trying to save fellow addicts from the pain of self-centeredness. In this way, they believe that they are expressing the spiritual truth of the Steps. When Conversionists tell their stories, they are most likely to speak of the mental aspects of their addictions and place a strong emphasis on the personality change that they have experienced due to their experience of surrender to God.
The Re-socialization View This view of recovery is… “…highly social and involves the use of informal community resources that provide a sobriety-based framework in which one can stop drinking and maintain sobriety.” William L. WhiteSlaying the Dragon In the Re-socialization View of recovery, the biggest problem of the addict is not a need for spiritual experience, nor is it underlying psychological stressors. Instead, the Re-socialization View believes that the addict’s biggest problem is using. When the using stops, the addict’s biggest problem becomes how to stay stopped. Solutions to these problems are fairly straightforward. “Don’t use, go to meetings, ask for help.” “Keep coming back.” “Meeting makers make it.” “90 meetings in 90 days.” These and other similar slogans outline the program of the Re-socialization view—just keep going to meetings. At times, meetings are emphasized so heavily that many people who hold this View do not work the steps. However, those who do work the Steps, tend to see them as a way to increase involvement in the fellowship. “Higher Power” and “God” are often interpreted as meaning the fellowship, the meetings, and sometimes the Steps and Traditions. Turning one’s will and life over to the care of God, really means coming to meetings and becoming willing to share and listen to others. Moral inventory and Amends are designed to help the fellowship stay intact even when personality clashes occur. For Re-Socializationists, sobriety is understood as a difficult process, especially because the sober addict is forced to deal with feelings that were once suppressed by using. When things get rough, an addict goes to a meeting and shares their pain. Other addicts at the meeting sympathize and support those suffering. Sometimes, if there is an addict present who has suffered through a similar hardship, there is a sharing of experience, strength and hope. This makes meetings a kind of mutual-aid group. Other activities that are important in the Re-socialization View are “meetings-after-the-meetings,” sober dances, camp-outs, and other non-meeting social gatherings for addicts. Expectations for recovering people in the Re-Socialization View are moderate compared to the expectations for people recovering in the Conversion Experience View. It is anticipated that recovery will be a painful process that lasts a lifetime. One is not expected to find relief from mental obsession, nor a vital spiritual life. Instead, the Re-Socialization View expects that people who stick with going to meetings will eventually be able to manage the business of daily life. Recovering people can get jobs and relationships, and keep them for longer than they used to. Recovering people don’t have to sell their TVs to buy drugs, or do any of the other behaviors associated with addiction. Often, recovering people have more money and possessions than they did when they were using. All of this is expected to provide some value and relief in the addict’s life. The stories of recovering people who hold this View focus on the physical aspects of addiction and the despair and hopelessness of addicted life. These stories are meant to be a reminder to the speaker, and to his or her audience of why not to use again. Some times, though less frequently, stories focus on the things that the speaker has gained by being sober. Generally, Re-Socialization stories end with gratitude for the program, the meeting, and for one more day of sobriety.
The Psychological View This view of recovery states that addiction is only a symptom of an underlying psychological disorder. In the years since the development of psychoanalysis, many psychological theories have been formed and promoted, each with its own view of the nature of the psychological causes of addictions. The theories range from Freud’s assertion that the alcoholic is expressing latent homosexual tendencies, to the Family Systems Theory concept of the addict as an actor of a role in a dysfunctional family system. Many of these theories, as they have each come into fashion, have had some impact on the Twelve Steps. Currently, the psychological agreement seems to be that the addict is someone who uses to cope with some kind of pain. This pain might be the result of early child hood trauma, sexual abuse, a dysfunctional family system, low self-esteem, etc. The pain could also be produced by an existing mental disorder, such as Post Traumatic Stress, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, depression, etc. Addicts of this second kind are called “dual diagnosis,” because they are diagnosed with their mental disorder and addiction. Because addicts are seen as using to cope with pain, addiction is sometimes called “self-medicating.” Recovery in the Psychological View is the process by which an addict learns appropriate methods of self-care. Treatment focuses on treating the source of the addict’s pain, and teaching the addict new ways to cope with pain. There is much talk about “feeling feelings,” and overcoming fears and shame. Sobriety is seen as a time of self-discovery, because feelings surface that were suppressed by using. Because most of these feelings are uncomfortable, the Psychological View attempts to help people in recovery to manage life while processing difficult emotions. Often, addicts are encouraged to use self-affirmations to build a positive self-image and increase self-esteem. Recovering people are instructed in the basics of self-care: hygiene, nutrition, sleep, and healthy social interaction. Sometimes, the word “H.A.L.T.” is used to remind people in recovery to stop and take care of themselves when they feel “Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired.” The Psychological View encourages proper medication for people who have a dual diagnosis, and regular talk therapy, with emphasis on processing the pain of childhood and difficult personal relationships. Working the Twelve Steps is not central to the Psychological View of recovery. When the Steps are worked in this View, they tend to be an extension of the type of therapy mentioned above. One realizes one’s powerlessness and turns one’s life over to professional treatment. Inventory is usually “balanced,” meaning that for every negative aspect of self, there is a positive one as well. Inventory also tends to explore things like family dynamics, early child hood trauma, instances where the recovering person feels that he/she has been victimized, etc. Amends are not emphasized in the Psychological View. In fact, most Twelve-Step rehabs will only utilize the first five Steps. Twelfth Step work is almost non-existent in the Psychological View, as professional treatment is seen as filling the role of ‘sponsor.’ Meetings in this View are seen as important to the recovery process. The Psychological View understands meetings in nearly the same manner as does the Re-Socialization View. For the Psychological View, meetings are important not for mutual-aid as much as for group therapy. The emphasis is not on “we help one another out,” but “we each get our turn to process feelings.” Often, addicts exiting treatment will be instructed to attend “90 meetings in 90 days,” and meeting attendance is often part of the routine at rehab. However, in many cases, the Psychological View feels that meeting attendance is not enough for the recovering person. Regular visits to a councilor are encouraged.
The Psychological View’s expectations for recovering people are equal to or less than those of the Re-Socialization View. Addicts are expected to struggle greatly with mental obsession and difficult feelings for the rest of their lives. One figure in the Psychological View, Terrence Gorski, has defined what he calls Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. PAWS predicts that people in recovery will not be able to get better through meeting attendance and Stepwork. Instead, the addict needs to see a PAWS trained therapist, or they will have severe symptoms of Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome that will likely cause them to relapse. These symptoms can never be eliminated, only managed. Stories of people recovering in the Psychological View often reflect their experiences in therapy. They speak of learning to feel their feelings, coming to grips with early childhood trauma, becoming better at taking care of themselves, or similar topics. Sometimes stories will include mention of Stepwork, but it is usually clear that this is Psychological and not Conversion Experience style Stepwork. Stories include much Psychological language, and will often focus on the emotional accomplishments of the speaker. The process of self-discovery and learning to love oneself feature strongly in Psychological View stories.
Arguments between the Views Each View of recovery has an argument with each of the other Views. These arguments help us to distinguish the Views from each other, and clarify the values of each View.
Conversion vs. Re-socialization From the Conversion Experience perspective, Re-socializationists are diluting the meaning of the Twelve Steps by not emphasizing a spiritual interpretation of the program. Conversionists point to the fact that many people in recovery could benefit from a Conversion Experience, but are unwilling to make the effort as long as they can ‘get by’ on meeting attendance. The fact that Re-socialization allows people to ‘get by’ and suffer from the mental obsession is seen as a crime by Conversionists; it keeps suffering people from getting real help, and it turns the program into a place where people get by without getting better.
From the Re-socialization perspective, Conversionists are seen as narrow-minded and possibly dangerous. Re-socializationists point to the fact that plenty of people are staying sober in the program without having to get religion or work the Steps. The fact that Conversionists are pushing their nearly religious View of recovery means that some people, who might otherwise stay in meetings, get turned off and don’t come back. Some of these people probably go back to using and may even die as a result. For the Re-socializationists, anything that keeps alcoholics/addicts out of meetings is a bad influence on the program.
Re-socialization vs. Psychological The Re-socializationists see the Psychological View of recovery as having a basic misunderstanding of the disease of addiction. Alcoholics drink because they are alcoholics, and drug addicts use drugs because they are drug addicts, not because they are trying to cope with pain. Addicts may be in pain, but this is probably the result of their disease, not the cause of it. Psychologists are also seen as having the wrong approach to dealing with addictions. While therapy might be helpful for many, real recovery depends on one addict helping another. This is because only someone with first-hand knowledge of the disease of addiction can really understand the condition of another addict.
People who hold the Psychological View of recovery see the practices of Re-socialization as insufficient to help people recover. Meetings are good for what they are, but meeting attendance alone is often not enough to help addicts deal with the underlying psychological causes of their using. People who have a dual diagnosis, who suffer from PTSD, who are severely depressed, or who have deep personal issues to work through will need more than meetings to successfully stay in recovery.
Psychological vs. Conversion The Psychological View of recovery reacts strongly against the Conversionist idea that selfishness is the root of the addicts problems. The emphasis on selfishness is seen as bordering on abusive. According to the Psychological View, recovering people need to be affirmed and nurtured, not scolded or told that they are bad. In this View, addicts already have negative self-images, and focusing on selfishness can only serve to increase that negative self-image. For some in the Psychological View, the Conversion Experience View of recovery is seen as taking advantage of vulnerable people. People new to recovery are in an impressionable frame of mind, and Conversionists seem to be attempting to force newcomers into a religious point of view.
Conversionists see the Psychological View of recovery as causing more harm than good. In the Conversionist View, telling addicts to care for and think about themselves only increases their already high level of self-concern and selfishness. Furthermore, the Psychological emphasis on “feeling feelings” and “expressing pain” leads to a recovery environment dominated by narcissism and diseased thinking. In this View, an addict can never express his/herself enough to rid their psyches of the mental obsession to use. The Psychological View of tortures recovering people by forcing them to obsess over their symptoms without offering a real solution to the basic problem of addiction.
Agreement among the views Our division of the recovery culture into three Views is somewhat artificial. In reality, there are many recovering people whose recovery philosophy represents a mix of two or more of the Views mentioned above. Recovery culture represents a wide spectrum of belief and experience, and there are many ways in which each of the Views can be adapted to match each of the others. For example, the Conversion Experience is a powerful mental experience, and can be understood in Psychological terms. Mutual support networks and Re-socialization clearly have a Psychological benefit as well. And Conversion Experience, in its need to be shared with others, has a strong social impulse and a clear desire to help others Re-socialize themselves. However, our depiction of the three Views of recovery should help our understanding of the Twelve Steps by revealing the major themes that are present within all Twelve Step recovery programs. By looking at each View in its purest form, we can get a clear picture of the kinds of programs and experiences that are available in recovery culture.
Women often receive warnings about protecting themselves at the mall and in dark parking lots, etc. This is the first warning I have seen for men. I wanted to pass it on in case you haven't heard about it.
A 'heads up' for those men who may be regular customers at Lowe's, Home Depot, Costco, or even Wal-Mart. This one caught me totally by surprise.
Over the last couple of months I became a victim of a clever scam while out shopping. Simply going out to get supplies has turned out to be quite traumatic. Don't be naive enough to think it couldn't happen to you or your friends.
Here's how the scam works:Two nice-looking, college-aged girls will come over to your car or truck as you are packing your purchases into your vehicle. They both start wiping your windshield with a rag and Windex, with their breasts almost falling out of their skimpy T-shirts. (It's impossible not to look). When you thank them and offer them a tip, they say 'No' but instead ask for a ride to McDonald's.
You agree and they climb into the vehicle. On the way, they start undressing. Then one of them starts crawling all over you, while the other one steals your wallet.
I had my wallet stolen June 4th, 9th, 10th, twice on the 15th, 17th, 20th, 24th, & 29th. Also July 1st & 2nd; 4th, twice on the 8th, 16th, 23rd, 26th and 27th, and very likely again this upcoming weekend.
So tell your friends to be careful. What a horrible way to take advantage of us older men. Warn your friends to be vigilant.
Wal-Mart has wallets on sale for $2.99 each. I found even cheaper ones for $.99 at the dollar store and bought them out in three of their stores.
Also, you never get to eat at McDonald's. I've already lost 11 pounds just running back and forth from Lowe's, to Home Depot, to Costco, Etc.
So please, send this on to all the older men that you know and warn them to be on the lookout for this scam. (The best times are just before lunch and around 4:30 in the afternoon.)
I've been getting a lot of asian spam... comments with Chinese fonts.
I didn't think much of it until last night.
I noticed that sometimes the spam had some form of asian text in the name, but once in a while, they'd throw in a fortune cookie type saying or something... like subtlety is greater than force or some shit.
But all this spam was followed by these blue dots........... Now the blue dots were obviously some kind of hyperlink or something. I've tried to google them to find out what they were... safely. Some seemed to be nasty sites or something. Well last night, I couldn't delete the latest one from my comments recap on the top right of my blog. So I went to everyone that I'd left from the past, went to their site and reported them to Blogger as span or porn, and saved them for my own reference, and the last one went away. Don't know what these folks are up to, but I doubt it's any good. Now leave us the hell alone and go someplace else, thank you. You may get a notice from Blogger soon. You can thank me for that.
Things within the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous... and without... that bother me;
Lower your expectations.
We stay sober, one day at a time. All we have is today.
My disease is out in the parking lot doing push-ups. Yeah? And your brain is on the couch eating cheesy puffs watching porno, asshole. What the fuck's your point?
90 meetings in 90 days
Keep coming back.
What you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here... hear hear. Yeah, right!
Just don't drink. Go to meetings.
Don't let the God talk run you out.
Hold onto your ass, because you're in for a ride.
Cotton.
Addiction.
Using.
Clean.
I'm an...anda...
Nobody gets here by mistake.
Powerless over my disease
I can't, God can, let Him. Let Him do what? Wipe my ass? Throw Sober Bolts at my whiskey bottle? How about this? RTFM. Read the Fucking Manual. DTFD.
Alcohol is a drug.
The Program works me.
You gotta change your playmates, playthings and playpens.
The only thing you have to change is everything. How about this? Life is like a diaper. Let someone else change it.
Think through the drink.
Let us love you until you can love yourself.
Steps? Oh, those are up there on the wall.
Get a sponsor. Tell your sponsor. What's your sponsor say? My sponsor says...
The short form of the 3rd Tradition.
There's nothing that can come to me today that God can't handle. Oh yeah? What if this is the day you die? I'm just sayin... look both ways.
But for the Grace of God there go I. What are you sayin? Look at that poor sap. Glad it's his dead ass and not me.
Journal.
Sick as our secrets.
How are you doing today? Oh, do you really want to fucking know? You got time? Or are you just making small talk? My life is fucked up but I'm seeking a spiritual solution. I'm sober today. And you?
You can start your day anytime. Oh yeah? Why not just start at the beginning?
We're not bad people. Were just sick people trying to get well.
Does anyone have a topic? Chair the fucking meeting.
When I came into my first A.A. meeting, I already did step one. Bullshit.
I do living amends by staying sober and going to A.A. Really? Most people I know outside of A.A. could give a crap. I get no points for doing what I should already be doing.
I've been sober in A.A. for XX years and I'm still recovering.
The promises. Oh, you love to read those, huh? How about the 10th Step promises for a change?
My worst day sober is better than my best day drunk.
I have a disease that tells me I don't have a disease. Not so fucking fast. Are you alky or not?
You're exactly where you're supposed to be. Oh rly? Well can I tear the Dr's Opinion and the next 43 pages out of my fucking A.A. book now? Is qualifying for A.A. as easy as your gf? Ooh... that was low.
Your best thinking got you here.
Nobody is too dumb for the program, but there's plenty of people who were too smart. O.K. I believe you. You are the poster child for that one.
If you want what we have... Just make sure old Charlie the Gimp doesn't greet people at the door with that one.
Be careful what you pray for. Oh really? Should I buy a Powerball ticket today or what? Come enjoy in my misery if I win. Yeah, right.
Sick and tired of being sick and tired. Oh, well I'm sick and tired of hearing that.
Wait for the miracle. Oh yeah? What happened to "my serenity being directly proportional to my expectations" and "acceptance is the key today"? Which one is it? You're confusing the fuck out of me now.
Jails, institutions, or death. Oh, the old FEAR motivator. Nice. Is that A.A. or N.A.?
Donald T. Quinn says "Sarah, I really appreciated your kind words. You made my day. Don’t let the buggers get you down. We’re with you all the way.
Mona Lisa says "You know, the majority of people I knew in my AA days were decent people. Misguided, full of fear, scared of thinking outside their little world, and fighting their nagging sense of cognitive dissonance…but for the most part well-meaning. The horrific, vile, profane, antagonistic, arrogant, bizarre invective issued by McG and his ilk is over the top, even for AA."
SoberPJ says "I was going to post over at McDog and then I read the AA supporters comments and realized ST is in a different league. And, IMHO, it should stay that way. My take is to ignore them and let them spew angry and profane rhetoric while they try to defend the indefensible. Over time, AA will wither but never die – it seems to be in the withering process right now. There will always be defenders of the faith, but it cannot withstand a constant barrage of solid questioning and astute observation. There is simply too much deceit and lack of evidence of efficacy for it to continue to thrive over the long term. Plus, it mimics a religion and this is an interesting video on how the Internet is a place for religons to come to die – some stupid youtube vid .The internet will cause the withering of AA too.
Primrose says Agree with Spj
Someone like anonymous of course is a better representative of aa. There is no point talking to someone who makes so little sense. It is a pity that mgd does not have a wider audience because he is proof to me of an extreme aa type, whose allegiance to the cult overtakes logic. I think that people from this site may be the bulk of his audience.
friendthegirl says Sarah, you have email… I’m going to reiterate a few things here that I emailed to you, just to put everyone in the loop.
First of all, like Donald sez, we all have your back. I’m not afraid to speak for everyone here when I say that. We have your back, and I have your back.
Second, I can’t stop anyone from pulling quotes from this blog. And if I had the ability to do so, I wouldn’t, because we routinely pull quotes from other forums in order to expose how AA members treat each other. I can ban someone from commenting, but I can’t ban anyone from reading or pulling text from the blog, and making an enormous asshole out of himself, and proving our point for us, for the whole world to see. (I can, however, ban someone because I feel like it, and I have no qualms about that.)
Third, if, upon reflection, anyone feels too exposed by anything they have posted here, I will delete your comment for you. Just let me know. You own your words, and I will honor your request.
Fourth, the message board seems to still be a little off the beaten path, but if people here would like a “members only” forum, which requires valid email address registration and membership approval, I will set that up. This will prevent anyone who is not registered (“guests”) from viewing your posts. It won’t prevent all abuse, if the message board grows beyond my capacity to recognize who’s who (which I don’t see happening anytime soon), but it will require a certain accountability, which a troll might be unwilling to accept.
Fifth, I haven’t read McGow’s whole post, yet. The man should put a seizure trigger alert on his masthead. I mean, it’s just an unreadable mess of neon text on a black background, completely unformatted and lacking any logical cohesion or flow (definitely a candidate for websitesthatsuck.com). But I will read it. And one thing I will tell you is that if Mcgowdog thought he could hold his own, or felt that he had a righteous position, he would have done so here. He responds here often enough. He knows he wouldn’t have been censored — he never has been, and has no reason to think he would — but he does know that he would have had his ass gift wrapped, with a nice big bow, and handed back to him, and he doesn’t have the cojones.
Sixth, At Stinkin’ Thinkin’, we front-page-post comments from AA members that we cull from their forums, in order to expose abuse. We don’t post comments from AA members who are in pain or who are vulnerable and then ridicule them. We cull for abuse, not for weakness. And McGowdog’s pulling quotes from someone who is expressing vulnerability and distress, in order to demean her from an AA position, is repugnant. And it reinforces the necessity of this blog and others like it: Expose AA ; Orange ; Blame .
violet says "talking about your cord made me wonder if you had a mac. i feel like all of us smaht anti aas have macs." Leave it to Violet to be off the wall spontaneous and free. Love this out of the blue comment.
violet says dear mcf-ckloser, you are just um, so far over my f-cking head, over all of our’s? what the? perhaps i did not read you correctly, um your black teenager-esque backdrop with purple font distracts me so, so very much. and well, what a creepy funeral for you. if only your uncle had gone to a meeting with you, he could have added some innocent aa chicks to his molestation list. gosh, i wish he woulda made it there, i am sure it REALLY would helped him. all i can say is, thank god i did not have to sit next to him or you, like eVAH."
That's ok. My cat still loves me;
My uncle was the one who had killed somebody in a drunk driving incident. Don't pin molestation on him too. Things are bad enough for him. But you sure do know how to take things out of context.
ok, i cannot take thedoghouse seriously. the blog is such a joke. i feel mean. it is like making fun of a really, really socially awkward person who unfortunately has a mean streak. these people are best smiled at and ignored.
Yeah, like you ignored us over at Sober Recovery about 15 months ago.
violet says "I guess if I were to take that blog seriously, which I just can’t, I would say that this guy is really just off the mark and misguided. And actually this is a huge drag because people who prolly need the most support (in truth, that funeral he describes is pretty rotten, right?), are going to f-ing end up listening to doghouse in an AA meeting. the uncle, cannot you see him in AA. GROSS. i do not want to sit next to people ike that. I do not want them in my home, around my family, nada. ut education and compassion are really the only thing that could prolly transcend this framework. i do not have the compassion. just do not.
If you want to make comments about my dead uncle or dead acquaintences, fire away. The three examples I gave were all examples of guys I knew that committed suicide and I gave some insight as to why they might have ended their life that way; a drunk, a manic-depressive, and a meth head. Fuck off, Violet. I'll not darken your door anytime ever, so don't worry about that.
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So, going back to about April and even March of 2009... you guys started this Cut and Paste from the Sober Recovery forum and used our posts as your fodder... for your anti/XA cult blog. Yet, someone takes your posts and sheds a little bit of light on it and you're offended.
You want to come over here and kick McGowdog's ass, huh? You better eat a few more sides of beef. You'd also better start flailing about the ground because in the dirt is where you're gonna go.
You don't like my blog format? You don't like the Purple on the Black background? I don't care. It's my style, my way of separating my thoughts from y'alls.
Like I said on the last post, there are about 38 of you and one of me. You done ran off Jim and Rob and you banned Karl and Tony J. And you have the gall to call my/our morality and ethics into question?
You love to say, "Let them speak. They are our biggest advocates against A.A. that there is." Bullshit. When you speak of A.A. you pull of the slogan of the week and use that to judge why A.A. didn't conform to your secular/atheistic world view. Some of us are into the teachings and experiences in that book and it works for us. Your Agent Orange induced rhetoric is old and tired now.
You need us. You need the constant friction and attention for your existence as you are but parasites feeding off of the crumbs of others. You look with vociferous attention to any story that you can spin to put A.A. in a bad light. For us, it's entertaining at best. But if you ever came close to hitting home, we would step back, agree with you that A.A. has some problems and we would set out to fix things or at least find the truth in our own exerience in the thing.
With our hardcore/hardlined approach to the A.A. program, not much of what you speak of is our reality.
Of all of you that commented on the "Suicide" post, hardly anyone came in with a disagreement to your ramblings and A.A.s supposed link to suicide. I saw that Ray corrected ftg on a word and she changed it to say "Mortality" rather than "Suicide". But nonetheless, look at your antiAA comments. You guys are the ones that are wacko.
You are resentful at A.A. and you would benefit to get over it. According to some of you, you had a hard enough time with sobriety that you got thrown into A.A., found out how bad it sucked... and 19 years later left A.A. and found that you could just stay sober on your own choice. So how is that not choosing to go to A.A. in the first place?
Why don't you go a step further and choose to drink normal? Wouldn't a Beck's Light go pretty good this weekend? Come on. Have a drink on me. Choose to be a successful drinker. If you can stay away from the first one without God, then surely you can stay away from the 5th one... or the 4th one... or the 3rd one. Drink two and stop. Then come back to A.A. and tell us about it so we can "tip our hats" to you.
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So what started all of this?
The offended poster at ST says,
FTG: I would like you to know that McGodCow has copied and pasted my earlier statement all over the web and ripped me to shreds for it. You say you want me to share here, and this is what happens. As for the board, I have posted there, and most do not bother to read nor respond. So, goodbye for a while as this is obviously not a safe place.July 23, 2010, 11:18 am
Holy crap! I didn't mean to single you out and the only name I took liberty to use was K. Unless by accident, that wasn't the point of my blog or any other comments from specific posters.
I just used the subject of "Is A.A. causing suicide" as something to counterpoint. That's all.
If you were offended by my immediate and spontaneous comments to your posts, I'm sorry. I don't know you well enough to make any educated statements. But you are posting in a nasty blog that has done some nasty and abusive things to my friends. Look back at my earliest blog entries.
It's the main reason I started this blog! I have a right to speak my mind, as y'all do. I may be banned from forums and put into the "Dunce" room, etc. But I will speak my mind and my experience.
And by the way, I'm not threatened by you atheists in the least. I've got some secular and atheist friends in A.A. and they get along fine. But they aren't your Starbucks-quality atheist like most of you folks are. They are the real deal. They don't believe in an Intelligent Guidance in the Universe or at least, don't think a Supreme Being is in charge. But they make A.A. work nonetheless. Either way, they are forced to choose.
Upon what we choose is what separates us.
I'm not really in agreement of your assessment of me over there. If you think I'm too vulgar, fine. I'll stay away. For you to discount me as some A.A. nutjob or wacko that's not even of use in A.A. interests me not. I'm doing well in my recovery. Believe it or not.
But make no mistake about this; I owe the existence of this blog and its style to you fine folks over at Stinkin' Thinkin'. You created me. You should take a bow. With all of the "Quotes of the Week" , "The Crazies over at Sober Recovery", and the labels to selective posts, you got my attention.
If you want to know the truth, I'd rather get away from this back and forth banter, but my pro-AAs have gone into the basement as of late. Things are quiet. Most folks are out enjoying their summer. We'll see things pick back up over the next few months. Someone made the suggestion that I take on other usernames? Violet? The only other name I use is SirMcGowington. Karl is Cuda is Leadfoot. Tony J is Tony J. The others don't post here much. It's not their style.
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Sarah, who also likes to bash the A.A. book and program on Amazon says, "I was not an unwilling member and I worked the steps OUT OF THE BOOK for over a decade! McGowdog, I hope you rot. Why does no one on this site care what he does to people who are already hurting?
I know about him and his friends. My point is: Why is he allowed on here again when the only reason he's here is to copy, paste, and slander?
Well I don't think it's very nice that you want me to rot. See, you've gone from suicidal to homicidal. I guess that's sort of improvement. you've gone from shame and apathy to resentment.
I don't care if you get me banned. I've been banned before. It's a small world. We'll meet up somewhere. You'll be bashing A.A. and I'll be praising it. Why? Because that's been my experience in A.A.
When you bash A.A. and claim that it's a dangerous cult that leads to suicide, I take note. I consider it for a second. I really do. But I see that what you say is bullshit. If you thought A.A. was wrong for you or you got no results after a set of steps, much less 12, why didn't you leave way back then?
What about the people for whom A.A. is successful? You say "good for you if A.A. worked for you" on one side of your mouth and you say, "A.A. is a dangerous cult" on the other. I don't buy it. You bought the victim card long ago and A.A. offered you freedom. Too bad it didn't work for you. I shouldn't even be defending A.A. here. It needs no defense from you or your "ilk". I saw plenty of people on your Amazon comments that dispelled you as a whack-job.
See? Insults and judgement work both ways. You ought to get a life. Have fun over at Stinkin' Thinkin. It fits you.
