Who exactly is this A.A. God?

ftg:


Says:

Danny,
I happen to think AA is a religion, but the argument about whether it is or not — or whether it’s a cult or not — seems to distract from the plain basic fact that AA is doing a lot of harm to a lot of people.


Nonetheless, I’d like to address your comment that “AA does not define God.”

Strictly speaking, the 12 Steps do define God… I mean, for the 12 Steps to work, God has to operate in a very precise way.

It’s not God as you understand God, really, but the god who will accept your will, and will replace it with his own, and will remove character defects — and who recognizes such a thing as character defects.


This isn’t a nebulous god — it’s a very clearly defined one.



__________________________________________


So, who is the A.A. God? Can I or can I not celebrate my God in an A.A. meeting or at an A.A. retreat?


Do I have to go "underground" and/or create my own A.A. to do something like that?

So long as I don't push my God on you, can I put a name or a face to my God... if only for a nanosecond?


And what if this God was different than your God?

Would this not debunk the stinky cat's definition of religion?

Oh no!

Is the fact that some of the most adamanty and stoicly orthodox and tradition obeying A.A. gurus are calling my group something other than a true A.A. group a loophole for me and my group a legal loophole?

Maybe, just maybe what I do and what my group does is NOT A.A.! We're free!

We may be just like you, FTG! On the same team!

What now, FTG?



Nebulous... adj. pertaining to, or like, the faint, cloudlike haze or vapor near the stars; cloudy; hazy; perplexed. -n. nebulosity



I just downloaded a free copy of "Cloud of the Unknowing" to my phone. It's a beautiful place to be when you're in Centering Prayer and in "listen" mode. I just got back from a spiritual retreat with 66 others like me and ... I experienced God and Power and a bunch of nice stuff and I'm feeling spiritual now. I feel like a trappist monk from the 14th Century.



I think I might even being over the ban you gave me for no good reason... for as you say, "So I won't feel left out". Not only do I not feel left out, I feel a part of, and I owe that to you and shark sandwich. Attitude of gratitude.



In fact, whenever I get into an argument about A.A. with my online gurus, I can go to you to get a twisted concept to make my own truthful concept contrast the ineffective A.A. concept.



Nothing like the Colorado Mountains to clear your head. I hope you all are well in Stinky Kitty Land.




____________________________________________

MeMay Says:

March 29, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Danny. To become a member of AA, all you need is a desire to stop drinking. That is what I was taught. What do you think?

Michael T. McComb


Let me take a guess... read Tradition 3 Long Form;

Three; Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse non who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

I don't see the word "desire" in there.

And that's the bizarro universe tradition form we use in McGowdog. A., the long-form.

What is my part?

Something tells me that we're doing something wrong.



I'm not too sure though.

Here's the story. I was just standing there minding my own business when a I saw a friend from High School. I smiled and waved as I approached him. When I got close enough he kicked me in the nuts, stole my wallet and ran off with my Wife.



OK, it could happen to anyone. One day I got a letter in the mail stating she had a baby and I was responsible for the Hospital bill since we were still married.

I called a Lawyer and he said it was true and that I would have to pay for the bill. This tidbit of bad news also cost me half a weeks pay.

Now I'm officially pissed. It's not fair. This is Bullshit. So I stewed over this for years. I was hurt, betrayed by a buddy, raked over the coals by a wife. Then when the divorce was final I lost the house and half my 401k but in return I got all the bills. So I stewed some more. I fumed and I held a full blown resentment. I had a right to this resentment and I would drink it away.

Of course I'd drink it away. I'm an Alcoholic.

Then the day came where I couldn't drink. I had to face the fact that I'm an Alcoholic and I was powerless.

What better way to quit than go to Alcoholics Anonymous.

I Took Steps one two and three with a Sponsor and then comes the dreaded Step 4.

I don't know why it's dreaded, but it is for some reason. I think it's a continuing legend passed on by generations of people that never took a 4th step

So my sponsor sits me down and tells me to write an inventory.

Huh???

I guess you have to read the book to understand this one.

List my resentments! Huh? I tried
I talked to my Sponsor about my wife, my best friend and me financing their honeymoon.

So my Sponsor says, "What was your Part"

Huh???
My part? I was just standing there and got kicked in the nuts by my friend and he ran away with my wife. I don't have a part.
"Of course you have a part retorts the Sponsor!
No I don't.
"Ha Ha Ha, you Pigeons are funny. We all have a part."

Where does this come from?


Why all the insistence that we always have to have a "Part" ? Can't I just be the victim and consider myself entitled to my resentment?
I don't want a part, I don't need a part, and I don't need to be told I have a part.
Now I'm getting another resentment.
The Book asks, "What was my part" but it isn't crystal clear as to whether I really must have a part at all. I don't.

So I can only assume that if we hear it in AA and it's not in the book it must have come out of someones ass. Somebody pulled it out of their ass because they didn't read the book.
In the rooms of AA it falls upon the ears of a newcomer and they swallow it.
Please!!!

Don't swallow something that comes from someones ass.

Ever!!

This story is fictional and any resemblance's to any story by any real person is purely coincidence.

A Lesson in Amoral Atheism

Here is a picture of an atheist (communist) who actually has the power to kill, not just ban someone from an internet blog. Gee, I wonder which way his moral compass is pointing.......

Anyway, it looks like I've done it this time.

What have you done, Tony, you ask ?

Well, that's the problem. I don't actually know.

When dealing with amoral atheists, like those over at stinkin thinkin, you never know what the rules of engagement are.

MA called me a pedophile about a week ago. And here are a few gems leveled at me in the last few days :

"Jeezusghod, so you’re an ignorant dink about absolutely everything on the planet, then." ftg
"Any group that uses faith, prayer and a fictitious character (HP) as a form of treatment, I would class as “crazy as batshit”, yes." klare
" the closeted homo-fag homaseksha only came on here to rage his serenity at everyone"groovecat
"i gotta say though, that i will miss him. it was fun insulting him"groovecat
"I was tempted, just in case there was any question, to make a list of all the nasty shit he’s been saying…"ftg
"You homo" ftg
"Tony, Now that I know you’re a self-loathing closeted gay man, it makes utter sense to me why you’d think that insisting that I’m fat and unfuckable would make a difference. I could be as big as a house and I’d still be right, and you’d still be an angry little closet case peepee."ftg
"I’m so sorry, I forgot that you’re idiot, as well as a homo. "ftg
"I will be glad to have a conversation about the objective reasons not to kill other people, but I’m not going to have that conversation with a moral idiot like you. "ftg
(then she wonders why I call her fat)

"Thanks. Some people are just too offensive to be borne, and Tony J is one of them." Mona Lisa (who likes to drink 'moderately')

"thanks for that. folks who think they are insulting someone/thing with homosexual labels, (or my other big no-no, “retarded”) are too dumb to matter but should still be schooled." This is my personal favorite, this stupid bitch has a big 'no-no' but thinks it's okay to say someone is too dumb to matter. Hey bitch, that's the same thing as calling me retarded........duh.


So according the the 'open' community, it's moral to insult people and to call them crazy, homo, idiot, ignorant dink, fag etc, etc.....

But for some unknow reason I committed the unpardonable sin by saying someone liked to have gay sex.

In the mind of the amoral atheist, any rule can be invoked at any time that proves convienent to them. I'm sure if ftg could murder me right now, she would. And she'd sleep well afterwards because as an atheist, she has no capacity to gauge right from wrong. This is very apparent from the way she selectively takes offense on her blog. Anyone she agrees with is afforded 'freedom of speech', anyone she doesn't agree with can stop by and be insulted and mocked but if they stand up for themselves they are murdered. Since the only power she has is to kill my ability to post on her little blog, that's all she does. But, I'm sure if she could, she's have MA give her my head on a platter.

Anyway, the official score is Tony J : 2 MA : 0.

The good news is, I picked up a new pigeon this week. It's good to have some AA duties, it makes me realize how much time I waste with the likes of MA and FTG. I can help someone who wants to stop drinking and better himself. No one can help the likes of the stinkin thinkin crew. I feel kind of dirty now that I've spend so much time over there. I started out by keeping an eye on cuda (don't go on a 12th step call alone) but I let the leeches get ahold of me and suck my blood.

Yes, they do deserve a good ass kicking but no, it's not my job to do it. I can't stop the alcoholic who they will murder with their propaganda but I can at least help the ones who go to meetings around my town.

What is your A.A. meeting or group like?

Not what is the state of A.A. in your town or what is the typical meeting in your area like, despite your best efforts to fix A.A.? What I guess I'm asking is, what have you done with the opportunity to "see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends..."

I found a group that is about as fundamental orthodox and by-the-book A.A. as could be found. It's not perfect, for sure. There are some things here and there that seem to go over the top or beyond the Book. But the important thing is I see results. I see that it works... for drunks.

I've also learned that there's plenty of areas of ambiguity or interpretation on what the book exactly says. There's plenty of other literature besides the book and the program of action contained therein to water down or steer the group/fellowship any way a group decides to.

I see what we like to call MOTR or Pop-A.A. lead to problems for some of us and put us out to ridicule. Some of us don't care one way or the other what our detractors say. Some of us say they help us and we ought to lend them an ear. Some of us take it personal and find the need to defend. We've done enough of that lately. The big problem with it is that it casts the shadow of doubt over what we've been doing and making ourselves available to those who may really need our help... inside of A.A. and out.

So some things that I like about my group is that we do steps. If nothing else, we for the most part do what we agreed to do as a group; all 12 steps yearly. We have a guy in our group who is out of synch or on his own in not doing the steps with us this time through. He is rebellious, but he keeps showing up. From time to time, he seems like he is doing ok despite all that. He shows up late, leaves early sometimes, brings food and disrupts the meeting while it's running, seems to be that guy who belches or yawns at the wrong time, gets up and takes a piss... etc. In fact, he's the reason we had to add the "turn your cell phones off" to the format. That pisses me off. It seems so effing childish, but what I hate worse is someone who has the thing ring, they go out into the hall to take the call, and you can hear their conversation... "Yeah, I'm here in my A.A. meeting. Yeah, I'll bring some tortillas on the way home. Bye bye, love you mwooah!" WTFuck!

Anyway. We wrack a disciprine!

So, we've got a pretty structured format and the chair person comes with a prepared topic, we do 3 minutes of meditation, the chairperson calls on people to share, and when sharing is done, we spend the last 20 or 30 minutes in crossfire- anyone can ask anyone a question about their experience on the topic or the step/tradition we're talking about... The proposed topic must come from the 164 or traditions long form.

We, as a group, don't study the book. We don't pontificate on what we think it means, we don't preach. We basically just discuss our current experience on the topic at hand. We pretty much limit our shares to 5 minutes unless we are shorthanded... less than 4 people. If someone rambles, they get cut-off or asked to rap it up. We actually use a timer set to 5 minutes if we have 6 or more people.

We're not big on sponsoring each other... but I guess you could say I sponsor from time to time and I get sponsored from time to time, right there in our group. We all do. Sometimes we bring in someone new and let them see if they fit. Most don't stick around. Sometimes we get someone to our group who's passing through. They seem to enjoy the hour and a half. Some come to our meeting here and there, but don't commit. Some know who/where we are and stay well away and even tell their sponsees to stay well away.

We have a sort of a 'guru' who... leads things more than anybody else. He is the one who got the group started and the one who modeled it to be like the Monday Night from the Denver Group. I've been a part of that group as well. We do a retreat with them yearly. But as a small group, some think it's too controlled.

It's closed A.A. You not only have to be alky, but you have to say you're alcoholic and nothing else. We don't care if you're an addict. We don't talk addict talk at all. If you want to get clean, take a shower. That kind of thing.

The other thing that might put us on the map as a bad group is the fact that you won't hide behind your sponsor in our group. Everybody is game to everybody else. You can't hide behind your sponsor in our group and you can't hide your pigeon or sponsee or protege in our group. Each and everybody is responsible to discuss where they are in the steps, why they're there in the first place, whether they're alky or not, whether they know they're alky or not, whether they're stuck in some mess in their personal life or not like ... causing harm in a relationship, working, carrying your own weight in life and in the group, working with other drunks, doing whatever type of service work that might suit you, seeking God and doing spiritual stuff and what you're getting out of it, physical health, being a good neighbor, citizen, etc. If you got shit in your neck, you're gonna get called out on it infront of everybody. Sometimes, it appears that confidentiality has been an issue. Some have left our group for that very thing. It seems to have caused harm. But in the end, what's important? Truth? Or our feelings? I don't like when people air my shit in front of everybody else in a meeting. I don't like not having secrets. I don't like not looking good. But... in the end, it's like a mother's milk next to Jack fucking Daniels.

We don't recruit and manipulate or hustle people into our group. What the fuck are people dogging us for baiting and switching and culting people around A.A.? If you're not an alcoholic who wants to seek God... Big White Fucking Bearded God... or whatever trips your trigger... and do the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, then just get the fuck out! We ain't gonna miss you. Go count yourself. How many are you? You're not that important. We're here to do one thing well. You're on meds? Well, don't give us the opportunity to play doctor. Pill away. Go find a more merciful group. You probably won't like us. We might kill your ass. We might hide your meds and piss in your tea. We don't give a shit if you're manic-depressive or not. You're either alky or you're not. If you're not, aire on the side of safety. Maybe your doctor can save you. We're not here to baby-sit you or make you feel better.

What we do have though, is a group of recovered alcohoilcs. We had a guy who wouldn't do his 4th step. Shame too. He got well, got a nice job, a nice SUV, probably got the girl, but... he developed... apart from our group, a plan. He would not submit and do what we do. He drank again and now he can't stop. He will die soon and it sucks. We each talked to him and told him we would miss him and that we won't watch him kill himself. We're not like him. We're sober. We have to do this shit or we'll join him. That's no bullshit. If you're like me, you'll understand that. If not, then we've got nothing to rap about.

We only meet once a week. It's not a big deal. What we do as a group happens outside of the A.A. meeting. It happens in our homes, at a restaurant for lunch on Friday, the half-hour before or after the meeting, here and there on the phone during the week. We go out on 12-step calls with each other as we get calls from the Central Office. Sometimes this means we meet a guy at an IHOP or even the hospital or treatment center. Not so much the treatment center anymore. They have their own alumni who stay well away from us. But when we recently went to see a guy in the hospital, he wasn't too happy to see us. But the nurse and doctor were very happy to see us. I was surprised, acutally. We pitched him and once we got to talking about what an alcoholic is, he backed off. When we talked about the steps, he flat out said he would not be doing Step 4. We told him we once felt the same way. We let him steer the conversation after that and he was pretty much done with us. Maybe we'll see him down the road and maybe not. We won't chase him.

This is what my A.A. is like and I couldn't imagine it any other way. Could I walk away from A.A. now and live a God-centered life and stay sober? Yes. I think I could. But it wouldn't free up my world to get on with life as a "normal" person who would be more productive out in the world. A big part of my life, thinking, psyche, soul, etc. would be dedicated to seeking out drunks, sober and wet, to try to help and bounce stuff off of. A.A. just seems to be a rational channel to operate
from.

________________________________________________

What are some of the big arguments we have with our detractors of A.A.? God? Responsibility? Disease? They like to think we label ourselves as diseased so we don't have to take responsibility and we go whining to God to get our way. But, that's bassackwards. We don't have a disease and we do take responsibility. God is a very simple and direct way to get us there.

Just look at our 3rd Step. Do we not take responsibility there? I like what Hawkins says about this;

In clinical practice, one sees the endless parade of the deadly duos of perpetrator and victim. The pattern does not become resolved either experientially, psychologically, or spiritually until the victim takes responsibility for some aspect of their own personality, albeit repressed, that played the role of the provocateur. It is very informative to watch the degree of tenacity by which the victim refuses to acknowledge any responsibility.

He says of the ego;

Rarely is a person willing to look within themselves for the origin of their difficulties because it tends to become projected onto others in the endless game of victim and perpetrator. The self-serving victim positionality of the ego is tenacious, and the ego will play the game even to the point of one's physical death. To protect itself, the ego will go to any extreme.

So another point our detractors make is that we have no business messing with other sick individuals lives and it should be left to the professionals. But this is the beauty of the simplicity of the steps. In the doing of them, we just bypass all the bullshit and go straight to the solution. We piss the philosohers off because we come across Truth in the midst of all the shit. We piss off the clergy members because we get to experience God in the midst of all the shit. We piss off the clinicians because we get healthy and well without insurance and an ambulance ride to the ER and amongst all the shit. The 3rd Step IS about responsibility! We do summon God's help. If there was an easier softer way, we'd be on it like stink on shit. It's all about shit! Get your shit straight.

___________________________________________________

Why do we choose the spiritual path in A.A.? Why not just take a pill? Well... nothing else worked and a doctor with some balls fessed up. So they tried the spiritual thing, got some other advice from another doctor as to how to present what was given to them and low and behold... sober drunks.

"All spiritual progress is by invitation and free choice, which are consequences of prayer and spiritual intention, for these gaps are hidden gifts. God forces no one to choose Him."

So we pray and meditate and that creates a space for us to "choose the right thing in the right nanosecond"... to choose mercy over cruelty, to choose life over death.

A.A. is merely a spiritual pathway up to enlightenment. Jesus had it, but was dealing with a bunch of clowns. He couldn't even talk to the people amongst him about karma, which is the same thing as ego. Bad karma is sin. Good karma is striving for unconditional love and spiritual virtue. Fate and destiny... all karma, but we all know that sin adversely affects our soul. But why didn't Jesus talk about karma? Well, He did acknowledge reincarnation as he stated that Elias had returned as John the Baptist (Matthew 11:7-14 and 17:10-13). And the Buddha was obviously reincarnated multiple times and was at a level above 600 and showed how to achieve spiritual enlightenment (700 and up). Jesus... as a Teacher was merely in the business of our Salvation, and did not reincarnate, but come straight from Heaven. But those seekers who are above 600 seek or choose virtue or Heaven not out of fear or guilt, but out of the love for God. Now, if sin is primarily "ignorance plus animal instinct", it is counter-productive to "hate" it and thereby become entrapped in an additional ego positionality."

Now... why don't we better entrust our care into the realm of medicine? Well I for one, would have more respect for the medical society if they could do something in my own lifetime; like maybe something simple. Solve the common cold, the flu, AIDS, Cancer, CHAGS (cancer, herpes, AIDS, Gonorrhea, and Syphilis), that kind of thing. I worked in the medical industry for a while and what I learned was that it's a business. Elective surgery for example; why? Stupid!

So we are told by our very detractors that A.A. has no plan or method to get a drunk sober. That's bullshit. A.A. offers total abstinence. First of all, finish your drinking and come see us. When you're done drinking, we'll help you dry out or maybe even take you to a hospital to do that. They can help. Once your head's clear, we'll talk about a program of action. "One road in, a thousand roads out."

So you can make fun of these spiritual principles all you want, but they are designed to give us a life that we had never dreamed of... one on which we can have freedom to move about and operate... like everybody else... and maybe we can help out someone else like us in kind. It just makes sense to me.

____________________________________________

Snake oil! We get accused of selling snake oil, even though we charge a buck... just enough to stay broke and we are using it on ourselves.

It's easy to sell a lie to the world... a world which has all of an energy of consciousness of 200. All the talents and money have to offer... 200. It's no wonder why famous athletes with hot and cold pouring women... have to smoke a stupid doobie. Why they have to snort coke, beat their spouse, etc. Some have integrity and don't do this, but they didn't get that from their 20,000,000/year paycheck.

The world don't offer much. The great thinkers of our day... 499! That's all Einstein, Freud, Newton, etc. ever achieved. To go from 499 to 501 takes an act of the heart. A true man of God can do it. You can't think your way there.

A.A.'s corny 12 steps will get you to 540. Your local church... may... take you to 540 and beyond.

I can understand why people drink, do drugs, kill themselves. Do you?

________________________________________________

Upon request, my particular Home Group meeting format:

How It Works Group Meeting Format

1. “Welcome everyone to the How It Works Group of Alcoholics Anonymous. My name is ___________ and I’m an alcoholic. We ask that you please turn off your cell phones.” Open the meeting with a moment of silence for the still suffering alcoholic, followed by the Serenity Prayer.

2. Ask if there are any A.A. related announcements.

3. “This is a closed meeting for alcoholics. We ask that you introduce yourself as alcoholic only.”

4. Ask, “Is there anyone here for the first, second, or third meeting since your last drink?”

5. Ask, “Is there anyone celebrating a sobriety birthday?”

6. Welcome any visitors from out of town or other groups.

7. Introductions

8. “The How it Works Group is dedicated to the first 164 pages of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, the long form of the A.A. traditions, sobriety, helping the alcoholic who still suffers, health, happiness, prosperity, and taking the 12 Steps of A.A. on an annual basis.”

9. “The purpose of a Group Conscience is to ascertain the will of God for our group. Anyone can call for a Group Conscience at any time. A Group Conscience meeting will be held following the scheduled meeting on the last Monday of each month.”

10. Read How it Works.

11. Select a topic from the first 164 pages of the Big Book or 12 Traditions long form and begin discussion, sharing your experience from it. Discussion to continue until 8:15, then break into crossfire. We use a timer for 6 or more people and limit our shares to 5 minutes. Crossfire: Anybody can ask anybody in the group a question about the topic. One minute limit on the question, five minutes on the answer. If not done by 8:15, ask if anybody wants to speak; when done, break into crossfire.

12. “It is our Group Conscience that all participate when called on. If you’re not acquainted with the topic, discuss where you are at in the steps.”

13. Ask for 3 minutes of silent meditation before the Group discusses the topic.

14. Call on members for discussion.

15. At 8:45 pass the basket in the spirit of the 7th Tradition.

16. Close the meeting with the Lord’s Prayer.

Iwo Jima March 26th, 1945

Well the fighting on the front has seemed to intensify with no ground being given up by either side. The Troops from the Stinkin Thinkin side have shown their arsenal only has a limited amount of ammo as the same tired old bombs are being lobbed across the front line. Team McGowdog has managed to repel the bombs by using the recently developed bullshit sifter. The bullshit sifter was developed to filter what Team ST seems to think is the ultimate weapon in the war against AA. Thanks to the development the weaponry used by ST has been reduced to the molehill that it really is to begin with. The Bullshit Sifter has made it known that nobody is dying, Nobody is getting raped, Nobody is selling their first born, Nobody is financing their Sponsors lifestyle... Ad Infinitum. What ST has done as a strategy was, and still is, to take the smallest, most insignificant aspect of AA and blow it entirely out of proportion. Being of the "Nimble Minded Variety" the Troops at ST lead by their General have determined that they have the ultimate responsibility to save the world.

General Orange has dedicated his career to the destruction of AA and feels the world without AA would be a better place. God only knows why. General Orange is otherwise an unproductive human being. General Orange has masterminded the art of evasion, developing his own talking points and creating the illusion that AA really has problems by referencing himself and causing opponents to navigate in circles until they give up. We show a surveillance photo of General Orange being surrounded by some of his smarter loyalists. The smarter of the loyalists are smart enough to stay away from the keyboard when they know their weapons are ineffective
One of the favorite talking points is to point to everything that AA really isn't and call it AA. Jonathan, being an inside collaborator will confirm their beliefs that AA is really everything they say it is.

Thankfully the bullshit sifter has foiled this attempt at confirming anyone's belief that AA is Meetings and hour long bullshit sessions with your Middle of the Road Buddies.
Pentagon Sources have determined that
Team Stinkin Thinkin only has a limited supply of weaponry. In the infinite wisdom of ST they seem to think that when they lob ineffective bombs that the best solution is to keep lobbing the same ineffective bombs over the wall.
That's the latest news from the front.
In summary, intensive fighting with neither side budging. Team Stinkin Thinkin has the advantage of sheer numbers while Team McGowdog has an advantage when it comes to just plain common sense and the ability to let people do as they please without any interference.