Says:
Danny,
I happen to think AA is a religion, but the argument about whether it is or not — or whether it’s a cult or not — seems to distract from the plain basic fact that AA is doing a lot of harm to a lot of people.
Nonetheless, I’d like to address your comment that “AA does not define God.”
Strictly speaking, the 12 Steps do define God… I mean, for the 12 Steps to work, God has to operate in a very precise way.
It’s not God as you understand God, really, but the god who will accept your will, and will replace it with his own, and will remove character defects — and who recognizes such a thing as character defects.
This isn’t a nebulous god — it’s a very clearly defined one.
__________________________________________
So, who is the A.A. God? Can I or can I not celebrate my God in an A.A. meeting or at an A.A. retreat?
Do I have to go "underground" and/or create my own A.A. to do something like that?
So long as I don't push my God on you, can I put a name or a face to my God... if only for a nanosecond?
And what if this God was different than your God?
Would this not debunk the stinky cat's definition of religion?
Oh no!
Is the fact that some of the most adamanty and stoicly orthodox and tradition obeying A.A. gurus are calling my group something other than a true A.A. group a loophole for me and my group a legal loophole?
Maybe, just maybe what I do and what my group does is NOT A.A.! We're free!
We may be just like you, FTG! On the same team!
What now, FTG?
Nebulous... adj. pertaining to, or like, the faint, cloudlike haze or vapor near the stars; cloudy; hazy; perplexed. -n. nebulosity
I just downloaded a free copy of "Cloud of the Unknowing" to my phone. It's a beautiful place to be when you're in Centering Prayer and in "listen" mode. I just got back from a spiritual retreat with 66 others like me and ... I experienced God and Power and a bunch of nice stuff and I'm feeling spiritual now. I feel like a trappist monk from the 14th Century.
I think I might even being over the ban you gave me for no good reason... for as you say, "So I won't feel left out". Not only do I not feel left out, I feel a part of, and I owe that to you and shark sandwich. Attitude of gratitude.
In fact, whenever I get into an argument about A.A. with my online gurus, I can go to you to get a twisted concept to make my own truthful concept contrast the ineffective A.A. concept.
Nothing like the Colorado Mountains to clear your head. I hope you all are well in Stinky Kitty Land.
____________________________________________
MeMay Says:
March 29, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Danny. To become a member of AA, all you need is a desire to stop drinking. That is what I was taught. What do you think?
Michael T. McComb
Let me take a guess... read Tradition 3 Long Form;
Three; Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse non who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
I don't see the word "desire" in there.
And that's the bizarro universe tradition form we use in McGowdog. A., the long-form.
The wrench I have to toss in here is that there is no such thing as "My God" and "Your God"
ReplyDeleteThere is one God and God "As we understand Him" is the correct phrase.
To all those that think they are entitled to choose the God of their choice please don't sponsor anyone.
Also, "Bottoms Up". Your rock will be good company on the bar stool.
Sorry, but I gotta disagree here. There's a big difference between" one God" and God "As we understand Him" If I say there's one God, then I imply that it's the God of MY understanding, not yours.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to tack on to my statement and say God "As we understand Him" is the correct phrase, then the "we" you're talking about is you and I, and thus you agree with me and my God is the only God. That leaves no leeway for anyone else and ergo: we have an AA God.
Where does it say that one's not allowed to choose the God of their choice (i.e., the God of their understanding?) Step 3 is pretty clear here:..."God as we understood him."
Inherent here is the concept that this isn't "God as we agree on", but rather God as we choose to understand Him. As individuals. The Christian concept of God has many different forms, some loving and forgiving, some fearful and unforgiving. Islam's Allah is different from Catholicism's God, which differs from the God of Israel which differs from the Buddha which differs from the Gods of Shinto ad. infinitum.
But all these different Gods (or different understandings of God) have one common thread. They are a "power greater than ourselves" who we believe can restore us to sanity.
And lets back it up a little further here. We're talking about steps that "are suggested as a program of recovery"
I don't give a rats ass what my sponsor or sponsees believe in so long as they accept the fact that there's a power greater than themselves out there that can relieve them of this insanity. And they don't question my concept of God either. It's irrelevant.
So I'm sorry, Karl, but I'm entitled to choose my God (a Catholic one, by the way) and I'm gonna keep on sponsoring Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Baptists and so on. I've been doing this for a while now, have never run into a problem with it, and have seen a lot of good sobriety result from our common efforts.
I love it when alcoholics talk about religion and politics.
ReplyDeleteGood comments and just got back from a meeting. I chaired it and it was on the 10 tradition long form and "religion" within A.A. The reciting of the Lord's Prayer at the end got brought up in crossfire.
My actual experience in this is that I think Jesus Christ can kick the dog fuck out of any other god out there.
Unfortunately Joe Cool, my older brother is a born again religious zealot Southern Baptist from Florida and he says that you, my mom, and my dad are all going to Hell. Catholics do it wrong for some reason. My dad is from the northern part of Ireland, near Sligo and he is from the ghetto and doesn't give a dog shit what my brotha from another dadda says.
Now if I wanted to blow shit up, I'd give Allah a try. But Jesus H. Christ would kick the dog shit out of Allah... so there. But when Mohammed was Moses, Jesus was creating the guitar so that Angus Young could play Let There Be Rock.
So Karl, Rock is pretty powerful... I think.
Where's ftg's pic go ?
ReplyDeleteI thought that girl was way too skinny but comming out of the beer tent was about right.
Anyway, FTG is correct when she points out that AA in the BB and 12 steps does define certain general characteristics about God.
She is dead wrong, as usual, when she says this makes it a religion. No one in AA is required to belief anything about God, even if it's clearly explained in the BB. So even if the general definition of God was enough to qualify AA as a 'religion' of some sort, the fact still remains that AA does not require one to believe in the concept of God it lays out.
So, sorry FTG, your argument is lame as usual.
But if you could post some peanutbutter cookie recipes for us you might prove your life is not a total waste.
Where's her pic? She's the one on the bottom, right?
ReplyDeleteThe subject of a lot of debate is whether we all share the same God or not. Whether it be Christian, Jew, Muslim etc...
ReplyDeleteSome say yes, some say no and I believe the issue will not be resolved in my lifetime.
What got me thinking was a friend of mine was telling me about Muhummad Ali's business card. On it it said, "There is but one God and he is all of ours" which is not what I would have expected.
Same God, just a different understanding. I believe God is God and did not exclude anyone and I believe we are all children of God regardless of belief. So to avoid the long running debate we just refer to "God as I understand God" and go on with our meeting. That way AA doen't evolve into one big Holy War.
That said, this is my opinion and my opinion only. If some choose to believe there is a different Diety for each and every sect I have no way to dispute or challenge them.
As the book says
"Who am I to say there is only one God".
Or something like that anyways.
Oh, Dawg. I didn't recognize her with that can over her head. It's a good look though.
ReplyDeleteHey Dawg, do you know that that pussy MA has you tagged in a story about an AA sex offender ?
ReplyDeleteAnd worse yet, the guy is Canadian !!!
They're so desperate to have you go over and beg to be let on their little blog it's pathetic. I don't even know why I went over there to look but I thought that was low, even for them....no, I didn't. It's just normal for social rejects like that crew.
And to think they banned you because I made a homo joke. As if they have some sort of moral standards....too funny.
Yeah Joe, I guess I'm going to hell... or is it Hell??? ... too because I believe in dinosaurs and that the earth existed over 5 thousand years ago and stuff.
ReplyDeleteMy brother, the one who's going to heaven and stuff... who used to screw whores in Mexico on our dime and did coke throughout the 6 years that I worked for him... and used to put me into dangerous situations to spite my wife and admitted to "getting off on it", has studied the bible so hard now that he knows... and we don't.
Oh, Tony, I noticed that. I was tagged for that story and couldn't find any other references to me in it. MA and ftg do that to me from time to time.
You watch. In six months they're gonna be begging to suck all our cocks.
I just read that Jesse James is going to treatment. Tiger went to treatmeent too.
ReplyDeleteI'll bet they both have a disease and an illness.
Well I'm glad that they are seeking treatment.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I'm not a fan of golf and know nothing of Tiger Woods. The only thing I see him doing wrong is getting married.
Jesse, now I knew nothing of him until I saw my wife watching Celebrity Apprentice. Since it's one of her shows, I've watched it because of my wife. Not my kind of show, but we compromise. Now, I saw his interactions with one Dennis Rodman. I like Dennis, despite his antics. He's a drunk and I get him. But I also thought Jesse seemed pretty standup in his convictions and judgements against Rodman's behavior.
What a fucking classless low-life, white trash, racist, Nazi loving, disease bringing scum-bag.
It scares me to think that he represents the same skin color as me. Now that may be racist. But deep down, I know that he will be looked at as representative of the "mainstream bike mechanic" guy, and I'd bet that his peers are disgusted in him and want distance from him.
He really touched that disgusting tatted whore with anything but a 10-foot pole?
This Jesse dude and his mistresses and treatment of Sandra disgusts me, allegedly, as if it was my business anyway.
Whatever happens with "sex-addicts" is not my business. I'm just glad that my God-Given sex instinct is both healthy and socially acceptable.
I do not consider alcoholism to be a disease. An illness, while in the grips of recovery and not in a recovered state, maybe.