Friday, March 18, 2011

AA and Christianity

Friend of mine wrote this post to this other friend of mine.
I just like what he had to say about Religion and Christianity.
Not so much about AA here though.

"Dear Samara
The argument over Christianity gets real tedious, and for several reasons. On the one hand you got your ' literalists' who insist that every word in the Bible is literally, true. Verbatim. ' An if you got any questions you can just shut up 'cause it ain't none of your lookout, no how! On the other hand, you got your secular humanists ( yes, they DO have a manifesto, published 1906) who insist that it is folly, superstition to believe in the existence of Christ, or his divinity. Yeah Sure!
An' if you got any questions you can jus' shut up an' go meditate on your unworthiness! Eat some yoghurt! Hug a bunny! ( Just not a western jack, they'll tear the crap out of you, they sure as hell did my dogs!
Then, of course, you got your Mohammedans, who insist that while He existed, He was not divine, did'nt do what he said. never mind that those Mohammedans asserted this some 642 years after his death, and that there is considerable dispute of the provenance of the Q'uran... the earliest known copy of which is a palimpsest.. Yah, no kidding.
The major religions of the world have some commonalities.. mostly in what they advocate. In matters of treatment of one's fellows, the sick, the imprisoned, the poor, those beset by sorrow or misfortune. I suppose that is why we ( Judeo-Cristians) can get along with Bhuddists and Hindus and all manner of odd folk. And they with us. About 99.3% of practicing Bhuddists would rather sell you a big color T.V. at a fat profit than kill you. Me, I'd rather get them Bhuddists hooked into a Coca-Cola franchise than kill them.
However, ( you knew there was one, didn't ya?) There are two major religions which do not have the same moral codices as the rest.
They are communism and Islam. they are the only two which have war and violence as fundamental to the practice of the faith. You may test this assertion for yourself. It is important to note here that 'Fascism" and 'Communism' are just two faces of the same coin. Idealogically, no difference. Just as there is no profound difference in the social model between fascism, Communism, and Islam. ( test the theory!)
......So, what's new? well, both Christianity and Judaism are new. Take a look at human history and you'll see a radical break starting with 'ol Abraham, through Moses, ( wadn't he a cranky dude!)and on and on.
I recommend C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christianity' or maybe the 'Four Loves', as effective antidotes to the logical-positivist plague of our age. those are short,sharp clear. the very best of apologia.
Yes, i am a wordy bastard, and a redneck too! J.O.M. Cain't help it. I'm an autodidact- only one who was one would have the temerity to say so."

Now I say take that shit ST. See we can be intellectual theologians too.
C.S. Lewis f'in rocks.


  1. This post was taken from this thread on this Web Site.
    No I did not do something ethically morally wrong here. I asked first.

  2. My mom almost died on us this last few days.

    She may have had some of the cancer or most of the cancer or enough of the cancer removed... IDK.

    There better be a God, that's all I'm sayin'.

    So I prayed to this God... to maybe throw a bit of comfort my mom's way... if it be His Will.

    Oh... and what about the folks involved with the earthquake and tsunami?

    Where do we go when we die here? If you say you know... you're labeled a religious zealot or a radical atheist.

    I got to spend a good bit of time with all three of my bros today... my mom, and my dad.

    Life is crazy. This much I know for sure.

  3. How is your mom doing now Patrick. I have been meaning to call you, but work has been crazy, we are so understaffed. Like I said though, you can call me anytime.

  4. The Christian is the not simply a man of good will, who commits himself to a certain set of beliefs, who has a definite dogmatic conception of the universe, of man and of man’s reason for existing. He is not simply one who follows a moral code of brotherhood and benevolence with a strong emphasis on certain rewards and punishments dealt out to the individual. Underlying Christianity is not simply a set of doctrines about God as considered as dwelling remotely in heaven and man struggling on earth, trying to to appease a distant God by means of virtuous acts. On the contrary Christians themselves often fail to realize that that the infinite God is within them, so that He is in them and they are in Him. They remain unaware of the presence of the infinite source of being right in the midst of the world and men. True Christian wisdom is therefore oriented toward the experience of divine Light which is present in the world, the Light in whom all things are, and which is nevertheless unknown to the world because no mind can see or grasp its infinity.
    ~Thomas Merton “Choosing To Love The World”

  5. Patrick, Sorry about your Mom. I, too, will pray that she receives some peace and comfort.

    As to where I go when I die? It's not a matter of knowing, it's a question of believing. Like this God, I believe in Him. I pray to Him. Label me what you will, I don't give a shit.

    I've probably mentioned this a few times, but I really recommend the book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner. He put a lot of things into perspective for me about God and His role in our lives.

    And the book Jim mentions by Thomas Merton is right up there, too. All of Merton's stuff is, actually.

    Again, my prayers are for your Mom (and you and your family, too). And you've got my phone number, too. Feel free to call anytime.

  6. Thanks you guys. She's a tough one.

    They finally let her go from the hospital and I frankly don't know why they had to go Super-Incompetent as only a hospital ward could do when it came to getting her out of there... the very lady who threatened the jobs of each and every one of these poor nurses...

    You know? My mom doesn't do pain well. The only time my mom laughed the whole time during this fiasco is when I told her, "Stop threatening the nurses with their jobs... they can only make it worse... be nice to them and mean to us."

    Evidently threatening to walk out and just leave will have the nurse threatening to not pay a dime of insurance and the costs would be well over $50,000.00 by now.

    Piss a nurse off and you'll get a 50 thousand dollar bill stapled to your sick ass.

    Thanks a fucking-gain Western Medicine.

  7. @Patrick sorry for yo Mom's, I hope she gets better. God's speed.

    @Jim, there is and has been much God talk in and out of AA.
    I felt after I read this post that it may have some relevance on this subject. Might give a fresh perspective.
    AA was built on a Judea Christian belief system. The early folks (first 100) thought that this would cause a problem and it did in a big way, still does.
    The arguments today, "AA is a religion no it is not it is spirituality". What ever!!!!
    I just wanted to show there are more arguments out there over the origin of the faith AA was built on.
    My point is who gives a shit what AA is. If your sick and tired of drinking AA has a solution. It will entail believing in God and prayers will be happening.

  8. You know what I am sick and tired of AA'ers making excuses of what AA is and isn't to please others.
    AA is about God, we do pray after each meeting. We do try to inspire spiritual awakening through our God (it is not a doorknob).

  9. Patrick,
    I'm glad your mom is on the mend, she's been in my prayers.

    On a different note, a doorknob for a higher power is fucking stupid, it's bullshit like this that makes AA look like a club for morons. All of our troubles are of our on making, the fellowship of AA being no exception.

  10. Thanks Rob. You guys must have some powerful prayers.

    We thought we were going to lose her a few times over the course of 6 days and the pain she was in was horrid. I wouldn't have blamed her if she would have lost her will... but that time didn't come. She fought through some rough times here and went from pain to fear to anger and back.

    I'm pretty damned sure that at no time did she pray to a stupid fucking doorknob.

  11. Some people think that A.A. came from the Bible, but I think it's more likely A.A. came from the same place the Bible came from.
    — Joe McQ. in "Carry This Message" - p. 145

    This statement signifies the fundamental difference between people like Joe McQ. and Dick B. A.A. is in and of itself a spiritual path. It can be and in fact is, compatible with other paths and traditions. But Dick B. would make it into another branch of Christianity.

  12. This is the best line I've seen in like forever.

    There's alway been something in back of my mind that bothers me about the Dick Bs of the world and folks who try to Christianize the A.A. program.

    I'm still confused as to why or why not a program like A.A. or even a religion seems to not go far enough for some and seems to go far enough for others.

    I suppose our main goal in life could be to seek self-actualization or enlightenment... but statistically, so few do. But there are states of consciousness which are wonderful.

    Speaking of states of consciousness... I sought bliss in the bottle. Unfortunatley, it was achieved but not long lasting... or as some of you call it... a "borrowed experience".

  13. I think we're always going to experience people trying to take AA in a direction that suits their needs. On one side we have the Dick B. crowd trying to turn it into a born-again movement, and on the other we have Rob's doorknob crowd.

    In between those two positions there are an infinite number of combinations. The MOTR bunch, the 12 step in 24 hours crowd, etc. etc.

    I don't think self actualization is an issue here, rather I see an attempt to modify the program to conform to their own beliefs/self interests. It's rationalization, as I doubt any even understand the concept of self actualization.

    They're free to do as they wish. I'll continue to follow the Big Book as it was written, keeping my personal religious beliefs to myself.

  14. Anyone seen the Dick B thread on ST? It's actually pretty good, not your usual rants. 'Ol Dick himself even chimed in.

    I called Dick on his agenda on another forum not long ago, but the post was removed, so I told them what they could do with their censorship and requested that I be banned and they accommodated me.

  15. I just spent about 20 minutes writing and It deleted my post, should have saved it!

  16. @JIM, every time I have asked to be banned, the particular site has accommodated me also. :)

  17. Rob, sorry that happened to you. I hate when that happens.

    Happens to me here and elsewhere... so what I try to remember to do is highlight the post and copy it before hitting the Post Comment button.

  18. Either that or write the post on Word, then cut and paste to the post.

  19. Some of us are too cool to do that. Just kidding. I do that sometimes... when I know I'm going to break it down and write a book.