As a matter of request I have taken it upon myself to check out Oranges site once again and I stumbled upon "12 Lies of AA and it's high time to expose Orange for the fraud that he is.
Therefore I decided to address them one at a time and at the frequency of about one a week.
Lie Number One
"RARELY have we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path..."
Oranges Retort,
The Twelve Steps are an effective treatment program for alcoholism, one that rarely fails, because faith healing is really good medicine, and God performs miracles on demand for us Twelve-Steppers every day. And when people don't quit drinking, it's their own fault.
The Truth
Pg. 68
We never apologize to anyone for depending upon our Creator. We can laugh at those who think spirituality the way of weakness. Paradoxically, it is the way of strength. The verdict of the ages is that faith means courage. All men of faith have courage. They trust their God. We never apologize for God. Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do.
In a nutshell, millions upon millions turn to God asking for strength in all aspects of life. AA does not own the rights to God. If what Orange says is true, all the Church Doors should be nailed shut and the Congregation should be told that they're wasting their time in asking God for hope and strength.
In fact Step 11 says "Sought to improve our conscious contact with God praying only for the knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out. Not to "make us sober".
Now get your God fearing ass home and mow the lawn bacause the money you're dropping in the plate is just making The Pope rich.
More in Lie #1
In spite of all of its strange features, A.A. is still the best and most effective recovery program available, and the kindest thing you can do for an alcoholic is to force him into Alcoholics Anonymous.
It is probable that more contemporary alcoholics have found sobriety through the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous than through all other agencies combined.
Oranges Retort,
Alcoholics Anonymous, an interpretation, by Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D., contained in Chapter 33 of Society, Culture, and Drinking Patterns, David J. Pittman and Charles R. Snyder, editors, page 577. Ignore the fact that Milton A. Maxwell was a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc
The Truth,
Sure, Milton Maxwell was indeed a member of the Board of Trustees as well as the Chairman.
Unfortunatley for Orange the quote was reported to be made in 1956 and Maxwell never served on the board until 1971 and became Chairman in 1978
I guess in the world of Orange that invalidates anything I say should I ever become a member of the board.
Link to Service Dates
Link to Quote Date in a 1962 Book
More from Lie #1
Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-Step spinoffs have proved to be highly effective treatment.`Million Little Pieces' writer Frey has stirred debate in 12-Step programs, By Michael Granberry, The Dallas Morning News, http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/13820047.htm
The Truth,
James Frey is a pathological liar and was exposed as such. Truth be told I believe Orange has more credibility than Frey does.
Link to Frey admitting he's a liar
Another Frey Link
I guess Orange is in compliance with Debating Technique #6 from a previous post.
Lesson #6: Purposely mislabel your points as "fact", so that it is harder for your opponent to question it.
Here is a snippet of a 'debate' with an infamous anti-AA cult leader.
ReplyDeleteWe shall call him "Whiney Mike" to protect his anonymity.
Whiney Mike :
"I am neither anti-AA, nor an atheist. AA was designed by Bill and Hank to get rich by selling books. Prior to that, they weremembers of the drunk squad of the Oxford Group, an evangelical movement whose tenets and recruiting techniques they used to establish their own religion. Whether Bill got the boot, or found it in his best interests to leave the OG of his own accord is a matter of subjective interpretation, depending upon the source. Your opinion of Orange’s site, or anything, for that matter, is of no consequence to me."
Me :
"You say you aren’t an atheist but , if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…..I’m sure it’s a duck.
The OG did not establish their own religion. They were a sect of Christianity.
AA is not a Christian Sect at all, although it’s roots are obviously Christian it is a non-affiliated organization.
Members are encouraged to practice the faith of their choosing. AA does not evangilize unto itself. It serves as a fellowship where members can come to stop drinking and practice the 12 steps if they so choose.
Orange likes to call this a bait and switch, but as usual he has nothing to back up his ill formed opinion. The fact is AA’s practice or don’t practice whatever religions they want. AA has no opinion on it at all.
AA doesn’t even have an opinion on a member practicing the 12 steps.
As far as Bill and Hank wanting to become rich. Maybe so. They certainly put the effort forth to start the movement and write and publish the book. If they made any money, then they deserved it.
I suspect Bill had mixed motives like all human beings. He wanted to be successful and make some money, but he also wanted to help suffering alcoholics. What’s morally wrong with that ?
Orange can’t make any money or help anyone else. How is he better than Bill
"
As we can see, he spouts off his master's rhetoric like a good litty inductee. There is not a trace of his own tought or personality in any of his dogma.
Very nicely done guys; over here and over "there".
ReplyDeleteCuda, love your little "game" idea.
Cuda, on January 3rd, 2010 at 7:32 pm Said:
Actually I was thinking of playing a game called
“Stinkin Thinkin Buzzword Bingo”
The rules go like this.
For every name called or personal insult we get a point.
For every time opinion is represented as fact we get two points.
If we catch you having to invent things to support your opinion then we get three points.
Of course in all fairness we must subtract points as well
Two points will be subtracted for every documented fact that stands to support comment.
One point will be subtracted for any answer that requires intelligent thought.
Same rules apply both ways. If we call you names you get a point. If we spew bullshit you get two points and if we are caught actually inventing things that support our stand you get three points.
You also have to subtract points following the same criteria we have to.
Special Bonus: 4 points are awarded if “H” actually replies with something longer than a sentence and demonstrates some form of brain activity.
Therefore all the bingo players have scored their first point with Drowningboys comment. Unless of course you happen to be playing for the other team. You get to start out one point in the hole.
Wow!
Then TJ, I think you got under H's skin a bit with the "Tony J, on January 3rd, 2010 at 9:59 pm Said:
Circle jerk ?
When did your mother show up ??" comment... and you were directing it at drowning boy and not even H...
"drowningboy, on January 3rd, 2010 at 6:52 pm Said:
I guess Tony J’s circle jerk buddies Karl & Dawg can’t play today???"
Ha Ha! They don't know whether to spit or swallow!
drowningboy, on January 4th, 2010 at 3:13 am Said:
suck bill w.’s balls…
That's -1!
drowningboy, on January 4th, 2010 at 3:13 am Said:
tony j…
That's -2!
LAAME, on January 4th, 2010 at 3:29 am Said:
ReplyDeleteThat would make you the first person I’ve encountered that joined AA after a great year.
Have you called your sponsor to tell them what you are doing here on this site?
Are you playing God? Are you different from your fellows and able to engage in the dubious luxury of other men, anger? What happened to live and let live? Where is your let go and let God?
If any of this thinking were working for you I bet you would not be here trolling this site.
Go do what works for you and forget about us. You know where we are if things change.
Say what you want, I will not respond to you again. At this point I have to assume you are not sincere in your discussion and you are just out for fun.
...
What in the world is this? I for one, don't have a "sponsor". I'm rogue. My sponsor is God and that Big Book. Oh might Big Book... we are here smashing MOTR, antiAA, and just general mythology with positive experience and a little bit of common sense.
I hope that some of those folks from eyelovebooze's channel will join us too.
...
H, on January 2nd, 2010 at 11:57 pm Said:
Drivel
Ah... another -1.
...
H, on January 4th, 2010 at 1:39 am Said:
We are going to have to fumigate this place. And clean out all the bullshit.
-1...
LAAME, on January 4th, 2010 at 5:13 am Said:
ReplyDeleteWhat does any of that matter if the point is that you are willing to grow along spiritual lines?
Statistics are not spiritual, they are material.
They talk the talk, but do they walk the walk. I think not.
Ah boy... spewing out bullshit... that's a -2.
...
H, on January 2nd, 2010 at 11:57 pm Said:
Drivel
Well that's a -1... but it's also a -4 UnBonus point for her too, right?
H, on January 4th, 2010 at 11:59 am Said:
ReplyDeleteTony J, knowing full well that he can get away with it, ids through playing here.
He and I both know that he is a coward.
So that's a -1 for the insult and a -4 for the Inverse Special Bonus H Special for a grand total of -5.
Good work, Stinkin' Thinkin'... your ships a Sinkin'.
mikeblamedenial, on January 4th, 2010 at 12:47 pm Said:
ReplyDeleteLying to people about methods and outcomes isn’t spiritual, either, but there seems to be quite a bit of it going on. How is that walking the walk?
We got a -2 for mikeblamedenial, and...
mikeblamedenial, on January 4th, 2010 at 12:53 pm Said:
If you have any complaints regarding its content, conclusions, and validity, or the qualifications of the authors, World Services in NY would be the ones to talk to.
Now that's a -3.
So Cuda, are these points like earthquakes? Are they logrithmic?