Worthless Drunks Sent Packing

The only requirement for membership is that you play by the rules and stay in the popular clique.....

I'm starting to get a complex. For the second time in as many months I've found that I didn't fit in to a site where they claim to be interested in sobriety. The first time I left of my own accord. This time I (and a bunch of my friends) were banned. Why ? I don't know really. We expressed some traditional AA views and had a little social group where we could hang out and chat without bothering the community at large. It seems that some AA's use the fact that they aren't in AA as an excuse to not 'practice the principals' of the program in all their affairs.

It looks like our little group of Big Book thumpers fell astray or the 'powers that be' on Sober Recovery. Much like Christian Science they are interested neither in sobriety or recovery over there. Our posts were regularly locked and deleted and we talked about walking on egg shells. You always had the feeling that the other shoe was gonna drop. A bunch of dried up old bitties with a little too much time on their hands if you ask me.

Quickcap does a nice job of explaining the 95% lie

He has a youtube channel over there and I really like the way he explains the survey.

A.A. Members' Length of Sobriety:

• Less than one year..... 26%




• 1-5 years................... 24%




• 5-10 years................. 14%




• 10+ years................... 36%

Now this seems more like it. How could this be?

First, let's look at some A.A. statistical facts that we've heard;

• 2 million sober members


• Average length of sobriety is 8 years

What would the A.A. haters or antiAAers have us believe?

• 95% to 100% ineffective

Where in the hell do they even get that from?

Well, Quickcap mentions two types of AA haters;

First, you've got your weiners, or those that like to repeat something that someone else says over and over and over...

Secondly, you've got your ankle biters. They just flat out spread lies.

So... as the story goes, A.A. does an internal survey every three years and back in 1989, there were 2 key questions that were keyed in on;

5. I first came to A.A. in ...... / ..............

....................................month/ year

6. I had my last drink in .... / ................

...................................month year

So the problem is... there's a lag between the answer to 6 and 5. Some come to A.A. because they have "back problems". Some actually come to A.A. to get wives, husbands, bosses, judges, family, etc. off their back... but continue to drink or remain dry. Then they hit a brick wall and come back to A.A. and are willing to do something. But this is when the antiAAers or AA haters come in and lay down this lie. They probably cause some damage and this is exactly why I just got kicked off a recovery forum.

So the next lie on the AA haters agenda is that A.A. is a religious evil cult that is both ineffective and yet also still dangerous. As Quickcap points out, trying to control alcoholics is like hearding cats.

"How can you have a cult when you have the patients running the asylum?"

Thank you Quickcap for what you do over there on youtube. I see your hate mail. You must really be onto something.

A Joe Cool offer

Yo fellow members of this most excellent blog. I have on hand the entire set of "Joe and Charlie" discussions on Cds. If anyone wants a copy, send me your email address and I'd be happy to send them on. Just be aware that this is a ten to twelve CD set and sending it will require about 34 separate emails. My address is jdris@cox.net.

On another note: This is McGowdog here just letting you know we have a sense of humor about this recovery avocation...

Anybody seen this youtube vid?

Assaholics Anonymous

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Alcohol Recovery Standard Disclaimer Repeated

[THE FOLLOWING DISCLAIMER WAS GIVEN IN THE BLOG BACK IN ABOUT JUNE AND IT HOLDS TRUE TODAY AS WELL. THERE ARE OTHER AUTHORS ON THIS BLOG NOW AND I'M SURE IT SPEAKS TO THEM AS WELL. MOST IMPORTANTLY, WE DO NOT REPRESENT PROMOTE OR OTHERWISE SPEAK FOR A.A. WE COULDN'T IF WE WANTED TO. BESIDES THAT, IT WOULD BE AGAINST THE TRADITIONS AND JUST NOT WORK. WE DO HAVE AN APPROACH THAT WORKED/WORKS FOR US]

Alcohol Recovery Standard Disclaimer

I do not speak for or represent A.A., but only try to relate my most current experience to the work we do from the book Alcoholics Anonymous 1st Edition, of which I refer to often.

I'm not an expert of any sort and do not proclaim to have anything special, except that I'm sober and free of alcohol today and I take no mind altering drugs. That's a Miracle in itself.

I did not rationalize my way into recovery and if you have any problems with the terms alcohol, alcoholism, recovered, God, physical craving, craving, allergy, spiritual malady, not a religion, not a sect, not a denomimation, not a political affiliation, hard drinker, not cured, not a disease, not a cult, etc., then this blog is not for you.

I don't debate. It's a waste of time. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind.

If you like what I do, which is hard to see over the WWW btw, then try what I've done. If you don't, then don't. Pretty simple deal.

I try to be open-minded, truthful, helpful, and humorous. I'm not perfect at any of these goals by any means. I've even been known to learn something and been willing to consider something outside of my own knowledge and/or experience. But with which I speak, I have a bunch of experience in this stuff and something's working for me. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be wasting so much time with this and wouldn't be so passionate about it.

I am really trying to be helpful in all that I say and do. Sometimes my writing style doesn't come off that way. If you get offensive and attack me, I'll get offensive and attack you back... 10 fold. And that works for me. Agree with me, then tell me why. It does me good to know that something worked for you and how you did it. We like to repeat success. really, we do.

McGowdog

TJ, Karl, meet our newest author... Joe Cool

Good to have you Joe. I just put in an author request for you and once that's done, you should be able to post and then I can upgrade you to Publisher status too.

I hope you don't mind me entering your first ummmm post. If you don't want it here, I'll take it down. I just thought it was very fitting here.

I agree, A.A. recovery rates are a foolish game, as is drumming up a rate for those who quit on their own.

Joe Cool writes:

Joe Cool has joined the blog.

Ref the AA Triannual Survey - it's a snapshot in time and that's all. GSO is merely interested in membership data, and the survey (which is available on the aa website) is not intended to make any predictions about success rates. If you ask, their response is "Rarely have we seen a person fail..."

Recovery rates are bullshit anyway. What's recovery? Staying sober for 5 years? Perhaps 10? I was sober for 10 years and went back out. Was I part of the success side one day and the failure rate the next? I know folks who have gone back out after 20 years. So how does anyone measure recovery rates when we can't even define the measurement criteria.

Leave the statistics to folks who like to write papers. They're all bullshit anyway. You say that 20% of alcoholics recover on their own. How did you find that out? Is there a registration site for alcoholics who don't use AA and stop drinking? Is there a list of people who walk out the doors and stay sober by some other means? Recovery rates are great for Rehab Centers who use bullshit data to attract new clients and get on the insurance companies' approved list.

On the down side, I recently read a member of Congress (woman, can't remember her fckn name) who objected to the new Health Care Bill including any federal funds for rehab of addicts and alcoholics since the recovery rate is so small. And she has a good point.

So I don't waste my time defending AA against the morons who are trying to sell their program by attacking AA and saying their recovery rate is better or saying that AA is a cult or any other such bullshit. If we ignore them, they all go away. If we defend AA we give them free publicity.
AA has been around for a long time. Consider that this program has no rules, no one in charge, abhors structure and authority and insists on anonymity for all its members. How does such a program continue to exist and grow if it isn't a success? We've been around a long time, we're here today and we'll be here for a long time to come. Don't like it? Well as I say on ** (and get edited out for saying it) I hope you have a good Plan B.

And that's my rant for the day.

Lie #2 in the mind of Orange

Date: 01/15/10
From: McGowdog Staff
To: Agent Orange
RE: Reading Skills Assessment

Dear Mr. Orange,
We regret to inform you that you have failed your basic reading and comprehension assessment. It was very difficult to grade your work because the comprehension test indicated that you only read part of the original material. You have demonstrated your inability to take the provided material and pass a written test indicating that the material was read and understood. In fact some of the material provided by you indicates that several answers were fabricated from scratch.

Not only were there misquotes that did not quote the entire original source, the author was also not represented correctly.

Below you will find some examples of the reason we had to fail your writings.

Best of Luck in your future endeavors
Sincerely
McGowdog Staff

#2
If you are having a problem with drinking too much alcohol, then you have a disease which only a spiritual experience will conquer. (The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, page 44.)

Really???
Come on Orange! You can do better than this sophomoric type of information bastardizing.

You're in direct compliance with the Karl Rove Debate Techniques which we might have to rename.

They will now be called the Agent Orange Debating Techniques. You should be honored.

Lesson #2: Put incorrect words into your opponent's mouth.

Lesson #3: Misconstrue your opponents' message purposely so as to build a straw man argument that is easier to knock down than your opponent's real argument.

All other Bullshit Artists must stand in awe at your ability to distort fact and present your rendition as the actual fact.

Unfortunately you only barfed up part of what you swallowed. The real Quote goes as such:

"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an
illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. "

Do you see the difference??

Your Quote:

If you are having a problem with drinking too much alcohol, then you have a disease which only a spiritual experience will conquer.
(The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, page 44.)

Here's how it really goes

If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.

Now do you see it??????

First off we have the Illness/Disease issue which you can't get through your thick head.

Hospitals are full of mentally “ill” people. Never once does anyone refer to them as mentally “diseased” People. Does that help?

Anorexia is killing girls around the world. It's an "Illness". They are “ill” because the condition centers in the mind. Just as Bill said our illness centers in the mind.

"Illnesses" center in the mind and "Diseases" are centered in the body.
Are you beginning to understand the difference yet? How much simpler can it get?

Here's this beauty from the book:

As you can see the quote is comprised mostly of single syllable words for your reading ease.

Pg 23
Therefore, the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind, rather than in his body.

I would hardly expect you to quote that correctly.

Try practicing this in front of a mirror! Illness, mind!! Disease, body!! Say it over and over and click your heels together three times.

Moving right along you left this turd laying on the floor:


"You are powerless over alcohol. You can't quit. Your life is unmanageable. There you are, facing ruin again, and still you can't stop. The more you struggle, the worse you get. Even if you quit drinking, we can prophesy that you will suffer from strange mental blank spots where will-power and self-knowledge will be useless, and you will start drinking again without even knowing what you are doing. Your defense must come from a Higher Power. (The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, pages 59, 41-42, and 43.)"

You provided a link when we clicked on "Mental BlankSpots" and took us to a story on Pg 43

Here's an example of where you took a story and quoted Bill as being the one that said it. It wasn't. It was Jim and I'm not going to research it right now. But it wasn't Bill as you stated.

You provided another link to click where you reference yourself. Cool All we have to do is click Will Conquer and we get to see you mistake Illness for Disease once again. No the AMA doesn't recognize any Disease that only a spiritual experience will conquer.

So, I agree with you on this one. Too bad it's an illness.

Then off you go with this;
"But this is the dogma, one of the core beliefs, upon which Alcoholics Anonymous is based. A.A. teaches that you can't 'just quit drinking' or 'just abstain'. You must join A.A., do the Twelve Steps, and have a "spiritual experience", in order to quit drinking".

Uhhh! Here's what the book says;
"To show others precisely how we quit is the main purpose of this book.

If You want what We have and are ready to go to any length to get it then you are ready to take certain steps."


The Book also goes on to say that they are just suggestions...

Meaning they are not absolutely necessary for sobriety.

Why am AA people sucking like vajeen ??

Here is a little exchange with some anti-AA's who consider themselves way too smart to fall for AA's lies :



Anti-AA smart guy :

AA helps many with nowhere else to go.

I simply do not agree with many of the tactics and programming.

What people believe becomes their self fulfilling prophecy. This is where teaching jails, institutions, and death is dangerous.

Acronymic sayings are assumed to be true and are misleading. If any “recovery” would be permanent, it would need to be truthful and have substance.

AA’s typically rationalize their actions under the belief that what they do is for the greater good. This is a total lack of humility and in direct conflict with the literature.

If I am to be rigorously honest, I am not going to react to any programming, I am going to think and make decisions based on balanced information that reflects the closest approximation to the truth that I can assimilate.

{{Note, the anti-AA has just said that drunks have bad lives not because of alcohol but because AA tells them they will.....WTF ??}}


Tony J :

Most chronic alcoholics do end up in jails, institutions or dead. Read the Big Book. Do you think all the original members of AA made that stuff up ?

Go to a meeting and listen to the stories told by the speakers. Are they making that stuff up ?

Why shouldn’t AA talk about that consequences of long term alcoholic drinking ?

If I tell you that you’ll die if you run out in front of a bus and then you run out in front of a bus and are killed, it’s not because I put the idea in your head. It’s because buses kill people when they hit them.

Anti-AA smart guy's sidekick :

jails, institutions and death.
You are in an institution. AA.

AA is the designated storage facility for ass holes like you.

Anti-AA smart guy :

Jails, institutions, and death aren’t mentioned anywhere AA’s book of mythology. I have read it, many times, and suspect that most of it is contrived, at least the first section.
As for the drunkalogues in meetings, many of them become embellished over time.
The bad analogies seem endless. I can run out in front of busses all day long, as long as they aren’t moving.

{{Again we see the anti-AA put for the idea that no harm can possible come from alcoholc but only from AA.....WTF ??}}

Anti-AA smart guy 2 :

“Most chronic alcoholics do end up in jails, institutions or dead. Read the Big Book.”

That’s like saying “Allah is the true God, read the Koran.”

MOST alcoholics, 80%, quit without any program or treatment

{{This genius thinks Most alcoholics end up in j, i, or d = Allah is the true God. WTF ????? Also, he admits that 20% of alcoholics can't quite without treatment. Primo.}}





















In conclusion I have traveled back in time to glimpse a 'future' anti-AA being told by his mother that boys are different than girls......... this guy still thinks there is no difference and he's 38 now !!

An Anti-AA Standard Line Cut To Shreds

Here is an exchange with one of the world's leading opponents of the AA movement.

He has challenged anyone who can refute anything on the Orange site to do so.

So I did. Orange repeatedly circles his links to some page(s) where he claims an old AA triennial study shows AA has a 5% success rate. This analysis is completely false, but most of his anti-AA cultee's don't have the ability to think for themselves or do basic math and lap it up.



(Just so you know.....the population of 100% is represented after month 12 on the graph but the anti-AA's claim and probably really think it is represented before month 1. )

So here it is :










mikeblamedenial, on January 3rd, 2010 at 2:28 pm Said:
The five percent retention rate is valid. AA’s triennials in the US have always indicated it, and the Australian AA study from 1994 said the same thing. Dismissing it as made-up garbage is a dodge, as is your assertion that anything he says can’t be relied upon because

Five percent retention rates have always been the norm in AA. Lots of sources indicate that. Dismissing it as made-up garbage is just a dodge, despite your adamance and vitriole. Nowhere has it been accurately demonstrated as wrong. It has been explained away, poorly, but never convincingly shown to be incorrect. Doubt, mischaracterize and dismiss all you like, you disprove nothing.



Tony J, on January 3rd, 2010 at 3:33 pm Said:
AA triennial surveys have never indicated a 5% success rate.

Why do you claim it does ?
Are you just repeating what orange taught you ?

Like I said, that claim is enough to discredit your whole movement.




mikeblamedenial, on January 3rd, 2010 at 7:55 pm Said:

There is no “movement”, as far as I know. Deny it all you want, or rationalize it all you want. Cherry-pick it. Make up some new facts. It still won’t go away. AA has single-digit one year retention rates, and most likely, always has.


Tony J, on January 3rd, 2010 at 9:57 pm Said:

You have no proof of that.

It’s all just random numbers to suit your cause.

When there are actual studies (probably never) then we can talk retention rate and success rate statistics.

Since we don’t have any, anyone claiming statistics is either ignorant or dishonest…..or both.


mikeblamedenial, on January 3rd, 2010 at 10:15 pm Said:

No, we can talk about it for as long as you care to keep denying it. You are well-aware of the studies which have been cited repeatedly. Since you have no evidence to contradict AA’s own assertions, I will assume that you are either easily misled or blatantly dishonest.


Tony J, on January 3rd, 2010 at 11:32 pm Said:

AA doesn’t make any assertions through a controlled study.

It is not I who is easily misled or dishonest.

You’re analysis of the triennial study has been soundly refuted. And all it takes is common sense and basic math ability to see why your claims are wrong.

As I said, orange shows that he is either ignorant or dishonest by citing that 5% number. The fact that you follow him blindly doesn’t say much for your own reasoning skill.

BTW, repeatedly citing the wrong conclusion from the wrong studies is not proof of anything.

If you care to show me how the AA triennial studies show that there is a 5% retention rate and/or success rate, please do.

Otherwise your just showing me how eager you are to please your cult master Orange.

I hoped to engage someone with the ability to think for themselves. So far, no dice here.


mikeblamedenial, on January 4th, 2010 at 1:24 am Said:

Common sense and basic math show exactly the opposite. For example, with bigbook sales at about one million copies/year for the last fifteen years or so, and a flat-lining membership during that same period, what other sensible conclusion is possible? Lots of people come into AA year after year, yet AA’s growth ended years ago. Most come in, look around, listen to folks like you and your pals for a minute, then hit the deck running as soon as they get their slips signed.
Here is a vid we did on the numbers awhile ago. BTW, exactly how are the numbers refuted, other than as shown in the vid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-IH07-BVxg


Tony J, on January 4th, 2010 at 1:58 am Said:

The AA triennial survey shows that 26% of people that were present in the first month are still there at the end of month 12.

That’s what the math shows.

You claim the retention rate is 5% because that is the number on month 12. Like I said, you can’t do basic math and have no reasoning skills.

Any educated person can show you where you’re wrong. Go ahead and take that graph to anyone who understands statistics and see what they tell you.

Go ahead, I dare you.

As far as Big Book sales, how does that indicate retention or success ? That’s just a measure of how many people are buying Big Books. If sales are down it might indicate that new membership is down, but what does that have to do with anything ?

mikeblamedenial, on January 4th, 2010 at 3:52 am Said:

We seem to have run out of room on your last post. Your assertion that 26% of those remaining after the first month will still be there at the end of one year is absolutely correct. What you failed to mention in your fun with numbers exercise is that the surveys indicate that 81% of the original pool have already left AA by the end of that first month. 26% of the remaining 19% once again yields slightly less than a 5% annual retention rate.

{{{Note Mike admits that my 26% is correct but erroneously claims that 81% have left by the end of month 1. He has no clue what the numbers actually represent. }}}


mikeblamedenial, on January 4th, 2010 at 12:53 pm Said:

If you have any complaints regarding its content, conclusions, and validity, or the qualifications of the authors, World Services in NY would be the ones to talk to.

{{{Mike is now passing the buck telling me World Services is responsible for his assertion. WTF ?? }}}

Tony J, on January 4th, 2010 at 9:31 pm Said:
Nope. 81 % have certainly not left AA by the end of the first month.

Only 19% have been represented at that point.

Tell me how 81 people can leave a room when there were onlyl ever 19 there to start with ?

Riddle me that Batman ??

Like I said, take the chart to someone you know understands statistics and ask them to explain it to you. You honestly don’t have a clue about what you are saying.

Reply
Tony J, on January 4th, 2010 at 9:39 pm Said:
BTW, World Services in NY is not misrepresenting the data. You are.

Hence I am asking you to defend what ‘you’ are saying.

Passing the buck will not get you off the hook.

You asked me to demonstrate something wrong on orange's site and I just have.

You loose. You aren’t smart enough to know it, but you do anyway. Sorry.

mikeblamedenial, on January 4th, 2010 at 9:42 pm Said:

One more time. The survey report indicates that fully 81% of all attendees leave within their first month. Deny it, justify it, malign it, impugn it, you still present nothing valid. You need to re-watch the video I so thoughtfully linked.

{{{Mike repeats the lie and claims I have not presented evidence to refute it.....WTF ? }}}

Tony J, on January 4th, 2010 at 10:00 pm Said:

No Mike. Just saying it over and over will not make it true.

The AA triennial survey does, in no way, indicate that 81% of attendee’s have left after the first month.

Do you care to explain why you think it does ?

The 12 Lies of AA

As a matter of request I have taken it upon myself to check out Oranges site once again and I stumbled upon "12 Lies of AA and it's high time to expose Orange for the fraud that he is.
Therefore I decided to address them one at a time and at the frequency of about one a week.

Lie Number One

"RARELY have we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path..."

Oranges Retort,

The Twelve Steps are an effective treatment program for alcoholism, one that rarely fails, because faith healing is really good medicine, and God performs miracles on demand for us Twelve-Steppers every day. And when people don't quit drinking, it's their own fault.

The Truth
Pg. 68
We never apologize to anyone for depending upon our Creator. We can laugh at those who think spirituality the way of weakness. Paradoxically, it is the way of strength. The verdict of the ages is that faith means courage. All men of faith have courage. They trust their God. We never apologize for God. Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do.

In a nutshell, millions upon millions turn to God asking for strength in all aspects of life. AA does not own the rights to God. If what Orange says is true, all the Church Doors should be nailed shut and the Congregation should be told that they're wasting their time in asking God for hope and strength.
In fact Step 11 says "Sought to improve our conscious contact with God praying only for the knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out. Not to "make us sober".
Now get your God fearing ass home and mow the lawn bacause the money you're dropping in the plate is just making The Pope rich.

More in Lie #1

In spite of all of its strange features, A.A. is still the best and most effective recovery program available, and the kindest thing you can do for an alcoholic is to force him into Alcoholics Anonymous.
It is probable that more contemporary alcoholics have found sobriety through the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous than through all other agencies combined.

Oranges Retort,

Alcoholics Anonymous, an interpretation, by Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D., contained in Chapter 33 of Society, Culture, and Drinking Patterns, David J. Pittman and Charles R. Snyder, editors, page 577. Ignore the fact that Milton A. Maxwell was a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc

The Truth,
Sure, Milton Maxwell was indeed a member of the Board of Trustees as well as the Chairman.
Unfortunatley for Orange the quote was reported to be made in 1956 and Maxwell never served on the board until 1971 and became Chairman in 1978
I guess in the world of Orange that invalidates anything I say should I ever become a member of the board.
Link to Service Dates
Link to Quote Date in a 1962 Book


More from Lie #1

Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-Step spinoffs have proved to be highly effective treatment.`Million Little Pieces' writer Frey has stirred debate in 12-Step programs, By Michael Granberry, The Dallas Morning News, http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/13820047.htm


The Truth,
James Frey is a pathological liar and was exposed as such. Truth be told I believe Orange has more credibility than Frey does.
Link to Frey admitting he's a liar
Another Frey Link

I guess Orange is in compliance with Debating Technique #6 from a previous post.
Lesson #6: Purposely mislabel your points as "fact", so that it is harder for your opponent to question it.