Tuesday, February 9, 2010

McGowdog dives into those Triennial Surveys of A.A. Membership

Shark Sandwich said...

OK, McGowdog. Let me explain to you how you are not understanding these numbers. This explains it using AA's triennial data.

Take out a calculator and draw yourself out a bell curve.

No, M.A. I'm not gonna get out a calculator and draw a bell curve. For one thing, a bell curve is what you use to show the the probablility about a mean or average, and may be good to track astronomical data or a sample of info for the purpose of charting a normal distribution. A better way to analyze the reliability vs failure of something, looking at a pretty Sigma 3 averaged chart tells us nothing. I'd like to describe another way of looking at data, like the reliability of a man-made medical devices, let's say.

[Insert yummy Red Herring for M.A. to chew on]Let's say that you've got the Conmed/Bard Argon Beam Coagulator 6400. You build a number of those and get them into the O.R. of say 1000 heavy trauma operating rooms across the country and track the reliability of the medical device/electrosurgery devices.

It's gonna look like a bell-curve if you go out far enough. But we like to call it a bath-tub curve. Let's say that we're tracking failure rates instead of "retention" or reliability rates. The higher the failures, the higher the data goes on the y-axis (number of failures) vs time (x-axis). It always ends up as a bathtub curve.

You start off with a lot of failures in the beginning of a product while still working out the design failures, assembly failures, component failures, QC/QA oversights, testing failures, R&D design failures, burn-in failures, etc. As you go along, you tweak the design, improve/upgrade the software, catch and improve assembly failures, improve components and/or change vendors where necessary, improve proceedures and for QC and QA via trend analysis, improve test proceedures, R&D does their thing to improve designs, upgrades, etc, ... to where the high failures drop dramatically and you've got a device that goes for years and years with minimal failure.

Then... somewhere out at the end of its life, components start to die at such a rate that you retire the device. That's bathtub curve and I suppose you could make a bell curve in such a fashion.[End Red Herring]

Some of you may be atheists and all. But do you really want to rate a real live human being the same way? What's the predictible outcome of God, let's say? What kind of curve would you use for That?

Naw Ma. Let's not reinvent the wheel, shall we?

Like it or not, there were a couple of reasons for the survey, which started back in 1968.

1. “To enable A.A. to furnish more accurate data about the Fellowship and its effectiveness to the growing number of professional – doctors, psychiatrists, social workers, law enforcement officials and others – who are working today in the field of alcoholism.”

2. “To provide A.A. with more information about itself so that members can work more effectively in helping the many millions of alcoholics who still suffer throughout the world.”

This was back when we had PI (Public Information) committees, but no C.P.C. (Cooperation with the Professional Community) representation.

The C-1 graph data was never intended to be retention percentages in the first place and has been the fodder for reckless antiAAer claims.

Each of the 5 Triennial Surveys is a cross-sectional study - a snapshot at one point in time for 1977, 1980, 1983, 1986, and 1989. Assume that the same number of new people have been attending their first meetings every month. That is how many will be in their first month when the observation is made. Or as the chart says, “% of those coming into A.A. within the first year that have remained the indicated number of months, with the y-axis going from 2 to 22, expressed as a %, in two % increments, then the x-axis going from 1 month to 12 months in 1 month increments and the data depicting the average of the 5 surveys starting at 1 month and going to 12 months…

1 month; 19%
2 months; 13%
3 months; 10%
4 months; 9%
5 months; 8%
6 months; 7%
7 months; 7%
8 months; 6%
9 months; 6%
10 months; 6%
11 months; 6%
12 months; 5%

Rounding error shows 102% or 103%.

The ratio of the second month people in the survey to the first month people is the retention rate between the first and second months. In that same way, it is possible to find the retention between any two sampled months.

In the actual data presented: Month1 = 19% does NOT mean that "81% (i.e. 100% - 19%) dropped out in a month as some sources claim.

Month3 = 10% does NOT mean that "90% (i.e. 100% - 10%) leave within 3 months and Month12 = 5% does NOT mean that "95% (i.e. 100% - 5%) stop active participation in AA inside of a year.

Instead, what the data does show is that for every 100 people surveyed with under a year since first attendance:

19% of that population were in their first month
13% were in their 2nd month
9% were in their 4th month
7% were in their 6th month
6% were in their 8th month
6% were in their 9th month
6% were in their 10th month
6% were in their 11th month
5% were in their 12th month

What is actually shown in the C-1 graph is that 56% of those who stay beyond three months are still active in AA at the end of a year. Other Survey results show even better retention rates after the first year.

You’d have to see the graph (Chart 1) for each individual graph for the respective surveys to understand. For example, the one shown is the distribution for all months. The 1st month distribution starts at 100% and goes down to 26% after 12 months. The 2nd month distribution goes from 100% at the 2nd month and goes down to 38%, 3rd month from 100% to 50%, 4th month from 100% to 56%...

The normalizing factor, that which you multiply everything on the distribution by, is 5.25. So Tony J is correct in saying 26.25% after the first year.

Now, two more points the Triennial Survey points out;

As mentioned above,

• 56% of those who stay beyond 3 months are still active in A.A. at the end of a year and other surveys show even better.

• Another important consideration for data interpretation and context is that not everyone who attends A.A. meeting is an alcoholic.

They have graphs in there that show from 77’ to 80’ the percentages of different age groups have come into A.A. Less than 21 years of age, for example rose from 1% in 77’ to 3% for 83’ through 89’, less than 31 years of age rose from about 12% to 22% from 77’ to 89’, 31-50 year olds have been a pretty steady 55% from 77’ to 89’, and 51 years + declined from about 37% in 77’ to about 24% in 89’.

Random suggests imprecision rather than the opposite, but in actuality, when it comes to voting polls, for example, comes to mean “absence of bias". Just because you have a larger sample, doesn’t make it more accurate. That’s what they’ve done with the above survey and it’s good enough for me.

Here’s two statements from A.A.’s Triennial Surveys that show progress in the fellowship;

“About 40% of the members sober less than a year will remain sober and active in the Fellowship another year.”

“Similarly, of the members sober five years, about 90% will remain sober and active in the fellowship another year.”

No prediction is made for those that do NOT remain active.

Length of Sobriety (Data of 1989 survey)

Sobriety Range_________% of Sample
1-2 years______________13.3%
2-3 __________________9.8%
No response____________0.4%

Another bit of wonderful data; across the board, from less than a year sober to 45+ years sober, average meetings per week is 3.

I think I’m gonna go on a 36 meetings in 90 days campaign.

Or how about this? 90 meetings in 90 years? You like that?

Oh look! Attendance at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings may reduce depression symptoms (http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/01/28/attendance.alcoholics.anonymous.meetings.may.reduce.depression.symptoms)

Look! There goes a fucking rabbit. Depression for who? The spouse? Fuckin’ dicknose fucks. That's what the fuck you get when you mix alcoholism with Psychology and Sociology.


Ok. Now that the above concern is out of the way, I’d like to delve into blame guy’s claim of a falling fellowship in terms of numbers.

First of all, let’s look at what the NIAAA’s (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism) NESARC survey, (National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions) says about the hard drinker vs. what some of us A.A. types like to call the real alcoholic.

Just for shits and giggles, let’s call the hard drinkeralcohol abuse” and the real alcoholicalcohol dependence”.

It’s fair to assume that for every alcoholic, there were about 0.68 hard drinkers… from just looking ahead and skipping a little algebra. In the next 10 years, there were about 1 hard drinker for about 0.81 alcoholics.

The NIAAA says “the number of American adults who abuse alcohol or are alcohol dependent rose from 13.8 million in 1991-1992 to 17.6 million in 2001-2002 (i.e. 8.5% of the population 18 years and older or about 1 in every 12 adults).”

A June 10, 2004 National Institutes for Health (NIH) News Release summarized the NESARC survey data as;

• 1991-1992; alcohol abuse; 5.6 million, alcohol dependence; 8.2 million, total; 13.8 million.

• 2001-2002; alcohol abuse; 9.7 million, alcohol dependence; 7.9 million, total; 17.6 million.

“In 2002, global A.A. membership was around 2.1 million (1.2 million in the US)."

"These membership numbers are likely understated; even so, it is a substantial quantitative indicator of A.A. success.”

So… the way I see it, we’re (A.A.) helping 1 of every 7 alcoholics or about 14.3% of them. The amount of real alcoholics went down a bit... maybe some died. The amount of posers-er!!!!!!!!!! hard drinkers actually almost doubled... from 92' to 2002. So if anything, A.A. meetings should actually be smaller. But... we've got some hard drinkers to run out first. Or another way to look at is is this... that will make more room for the real alcoholic that is still out there. Don't want to do A.A. via the steps or believe in God? Fine. Get the fuck out. We need the chair. Maybe then we'll get the recovery rates up even higher and the antiAAers will be all proud of us. I have a ... an epiphany! You hard drinkers? Go join an antiAA blog. They'll keep you busy.

So based on that, Blame, what were you saying?


  1. Actually, the membership was in decline for quite a few years. It has probably flatlined over the last ten years or so.

    More people getting sent to AA, more meetings popping up all the time, yet a membership decline, what's up with that?

    But it isn't necessarily a bad thing. More members isn't necessarily better, and if a few of those MOTR meetings faded away, that wouldn't hurt. Don Pritts said one time that AA as it is known today may have to die so that it can live, which appears to be happening.

    The downside of the picture is that it tells me that we aren't doing something right. By "We," I mean AA as a whole.

    As for GSO's numbers, they are just as meaningless as a treatment center's claim of 50% recovery just because someone graduated and stayed sober or clean for three months.

    Actually, our recovery rate is probably a measly 3% to 5%, 7% at best. MOTR AA is the culprit. Like Tom Powers said, who wants to drive the stick shift when the model with the automatic is a hundred bucks cheaaper?

  2. Well, I agree with the shape of the fellowship and all. But I know where to find a good meeting and that's pretty much where I wind up.

    Now, within that setting, what's my truth? It just don't jive with this 3, 5, or 7% bullshit that's so envogue to spew these days.

    I didn't used to give MOTRers much of a thought. But when I start to pick up on the notion that something like half of all prospects of A.A. might be hard drinkers and the other half might be real or potential alkies, then... it would be nice to eventually provide two separate fellowships/programs for each one.

    I also don't worship AAWS too much. But when you throw in the NIAAA and the NESARC to boot, I'm just more inclined to hear them out way before I'm gonna give credence to what Orange and his minions have to say... over and over and over again...

    Show me where you get 5%. Show me exactly with irrefutable fact, where you get 5% and I'll go with that.

    Then I'll show you my type of meeting that just don't even need to make recovery or retention rates an issue. If somebody needs to go drink, then can go fucking drink. No problem. If they don't belong there, they won't waste our time or their own time for long.

  3. According to you McGow aa is brainwashing only 1 out of 7....that is good news for sure.

  4. The 5% isn't concrete. Just a guess based on what I and some others see going on.

    The GSO surveys are exactly that, a survey meant, as was stated to prove something to the professional community. Really doesn't prove a success rate one way or the other.

    As for two fellowships in AA, there already are, always have been, at least since the early 40's.

    I know what type of meeting your group has. My group is similar and we take similar positions. I used to belong to a group that was very strong in fundamentals. It was formed in 1988 by a man and his wife who both hit the wall a long time sober in AA. Someone gave them a set of Joe & Charlie tapes and they went through the steps with Joe & Charlie and a Big Book. Then they started sponsoring people and a group was formed. Several years ago the group did an informal poll. It was found that of everyone who joined the group, got a sponsor in the group, did the steps, and went on to work with others, about 80% of them were still sober after about fifteen years. It was also found that a few had left AA but had stayed sober and were living spiritually. Now there isn't much scientific basis to this, but it does say something.

  5. Well thank Jim. Those were the points I was trying to make and the Triennial Surveys stated up front why they were there in the first place and how they were being used... and that they don't claim to be what they're not. But the antiAAers sure are free to manipulate and exploit the data in favor of their idiotic cause. So yeah, I had already stated what you just said if you read the thing.

    Bugsworth...er Madeline, A.A. [turn antiAA mindfuckery rant on]is brainwashing 1 out of 7. Yeah, that's right[rant off]. That's all A.A. seems to be reaching... worldwide. If there's just under 2 million real alkies out there, or maybe that includes some problem drinker/hard drinkers in there too, one-half of them are in the U.S. and the rest are scattered about the planet.

    Like Jim says, there's already too many meetings. If we can encourage the real alkies to find us and give it a shot, great. We'll send the ones that don't and not hard drinkers your way so you can deprogram them and maybe recruit them to make YT vids and start another A.A. is a Mindfuckery Blog somewhere.

    Like I was showing M.A. just yesterday, there's a site on the www that suggested that going to A.A. meetings can help with depression. Then I shouted expletives at the site and M.A. accused me of calling everybody on his site that and made it a point to everybody that I did so. I said "M.A., don't get paranoid with me." Then I think M.A. thought, "O RLY?" Then I thought back, "Yeah RLY!"

  6. Well McGow brainwashing is a tough business. All you have to do is attend meetings long enough to see how truly pitiful the retention rate is. You and Jim believe it is because much of aa is MOTR. I say it's because most people see aa for what it really is...a religious conversion.

  7. Madeline, most people walk out the door because they really aren't interested in getting sober at the time. Their priorities changed. No other reason!

  8. For the record. I've had people call me for a ride to a meeting. After the meeting I drove them to the liquor store at their request.
    What does that tell you? It tells you right there that Liquor Stores have a 50% success rate because I walked in and walked out without picking up a bottle.

  9. Karl...You can assume anything of the people who leave aa in droves...what ever helps you sleep at night. What you do before, during or after meetings is your business but taking someone with an alcohol addiction to a liquor store just proves how ridiculous your program is.

  10. People walk into AA and still have a desire to drink when the meeting is over. If you've been lead to believe that AA is some place where you walk into a meeting and walk out cured I have a bridge to sell you.
    We actually have a chapter in the book entitled "Into Action" which means that sitting on your unmotivated ass in a meeting isn't the answer.
    Something is still expected from the people that come to AA. The fact that something is expected (like a relationship with God and the 12 Steps) is what causes people to leave.
    FWIW I'll agree that people leave by the thousands. I see them leave all the time. I personally went to about a dozen meetings between 1980 and 1990 and I left every one of them because I really wanted to drink. No other reason. Not because AA sucked, Not because it was a "Cult", Not because they talked to me about God, Not because My Sponsor tried to control my life, Not because of any lie anyone told me. I just wanted to drink.
    Anyone would be a fool to believe that my story is unique in any way.
    Truth be told that 80% of the people that quit actually do quit without AA.
    No Steps, No God and No Fellowship. That's "their' program.
    Unfortunatley they attend 3-4 meetings a week and just sit there. while working "Their" program.
    What you refer to as "AA" isn't "AA"! There just happens to be an "AA" sign on the wall.

  11. Karl...I haven't ben led to believe anything...I went to aa and drew my own conclusions from my time spent there.

    You backed up what I was saying with this..

    "Something is still expected from the people that come to AA. The fact that something is expected (like a relationship with God and the 12 Steps) is what causes people to leave...

    and with this...

    "Truth be told that 80% of the people that quit actually do quit without AA."

    Maybe you are having a change of heart? It's ok it happens all the time.

  12. What the hell is wrong with saying this???

    "Something is still expected from the people that come to AA. The fact that something is expected (like a relationship with God and the 12 Steps) is what causes people to leave..."

    That's exactly what AA is and was intended to be. Were you expecting something else??

  13. The "something" that is expected is to adopt aa's theology. Most rational thinking people, religious or not, understand a religious belief system when they see it. Once they see it they leave...faith healing is a hard concept to sell...McGow thinks 1 out of 7 fall for it. Not too bad.

  14. AA is a spiritual program. Here's a quote from the AA Big Book Pg 45,
    " And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God".

    That about explains AA. That's what we do.
    Bitching and Complaining about AA and all their talk of God is like bitching about the Boy Scouts because those bastards made you go camping.
    In a nutshell, the door swings both ways and don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out.
    However, if you feel an incessand desire to go into cyber space and tell all how bad AA is just because you didn't like it, I suggest you seek professional help somewhere.

  15. I don't have the desire because I don't like aa...I speak out because aa and it's adherents lie to sick vulnerable people looking for help.

    Speaking up about the many misconceptions regarding alcoholism found in aa is nothing like complaining that the boys scouts made you go camping.

  16. Hey Dawg.

    It's interesting how anti-AA's are hoisted on their own petard with that treinnial survey.

    They really aren't the best and brightet. They honestly think they are but they fall a little short of the average IQ, methinks.

    As far as anyone going ballistic at any mention of God, that's just a sign of the radical athiesm that's popular now among the bourgeois.

  17. If you really gave a shit you would be pushing an alternative as opposed to blindly bashing AA. Therefore your excuse doesn't cut it.
    You never hear any intelligent salesman bashing the other guys product regardless. their success is gained on how well they promote their own.
    I've heard that other recovery concepts really don't do much but bitch about AA in their meetings.
    And to think you call "Us" the sick ones.
    Go Figure.

  18. Who is "blindly" bashing aa? I didn't give you an excuse for anything...I gave you a reason why. It is you who has become blinded.

    My alternative was to quit consuming alcohol...a hard concept for for someone who takes no responsibility for their actions.

  19. I've got a little problem here. "aa's theology"
    What the hell is that? And where in AA is there any semblance of a religious belief system? We're not talking religion or a worship service here. We're talking about a program that helps drunks to stay sober. It's not fucking rocket science.

    One principle of the AA program that we need to look at is that I as an individual am not the center of the universe that I think I am when I first walk in the doors. If I am, then there's nothing bigger and better out there than me. And if I am the biggest thing, the highest power in this universe, that there is nothing out there higher than me, then humanity is truly fucked. And I am fucked, also. I want to get sober, and I've tried to quit drinking but all my self-help programs didn't work too well. So I walk into AA because I can't help myself. But I believe that I'm the HMFIC (Head mother fucker in charge) and I can't do it, then it can't be done, can it?

    But suppose my thinking is a bit off here. Suppose there might be something out there bigger than I am. I don't give a shit what you call it, but it's a higher power than me. It could be Mother Earth, Buddha, some unknown creature in the Cosmos. It doesn't fucking matter. It's bigger than me. So I have an "Aha" moment. Maybe, if I really believe in this higher power, if I'm really sincere here (and I don't give a shit how you measure sincerity - animal sacrifice, incense burning, drum dances, prayer) maybe this higher power can help me recover from alcoholism as I sure as shit can't do it myself.

    So if I grab onto this concept of some higher power - doesn't matter what it is - and if I come to believe that this power can help me, does this make it "aa theology"? Does make this a "religious belief system"? And please don't throw that "rational person" shit at me.
    It an expression that's been overused too much. Think of another trite phrase to impress me with your intellectual superiority.

    Most people who walk out of AA do so because they don't want to stop drinking. It has nothing to do with this bullshit about religion, theology, the phases of the moon, an overdue library book, or anything else. They want to drink. If they want to quit and they're willing to do some fucking work to stay sober, then they stick around. It's that fucking simple. Those that come to meetings and just sit there aren't sober, they're just abstaining from booze. And there's a big difference between the two.

    How successful is AA? Nobody knows. What's success? 5 years in the program? 10 years? 20? I was in for 10 years and went back out. So was I successful one day and not the next. Where am I on the tri-annual survey. I guess it depends on which day it was given.

    So lets cut this shit out about religion, cults, or anything else you want to toss at AA. It's a simple program to help alcoholics get and stay sober. And we're talking about both physical and emotional sobriety. Granted, it doesn't work for everyone. Bill Wilson was the first to admit that AA doesn't have a patent on sobriety. If you don't like AA, that's fine. I hope you have a good Plan B. I really do. You need to find whatever works to keep you sober. But don't throw stones at AA. A wise man once said that contempt prior to investigation is the height of ignorance.

  20. "My alternative was to quit consuming alcohol...a hard concept for for someone who takes no responsibility for their actions".

    Exactly why I said not to let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

    Sorry you have the big shot syndrome where you feel compelled to save the world from something that really doesn't matter in the first place just because you don't agree with it.

  21. Joe..you have been convinced you can't help yourself. You started out saying aa isn't religious and moved right into believing that some "higher power" can help you. You typed 3 paragraphs explaining the conversion. Come...come too...come to believe.
    Typical and expected.

  22. Madeline, what people believe to be the truth far outweighs what may or may not be the truth.
    What people believe to be the truth isn't really any of your concern.
    If you really think people must believe as you do in order to be right then you're really screwed up. As I suggest, you need to see someone about your complex.

  23. For what it's worth. If I never went to a meeting again I would do just fine. You may have been lead to believe that AA is all about meetings. It's not. AA is a Program that involves action. None of those actions involve meetings.
    I go to meetings to help others that may need AAs help. Even though you insist that they don't, they do.
    The real question is "What makes you so Goddamn Right when nobody else is"?

  24. Religion :

    "1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. "

    Does AA fit into that ?
    Not really. It has some religious qualities but all in all it does not fit the definition of a 'religion'.

    The real problem the anti-AA's have is that they see people giving God credit for something. They don't believe in God and are fanatical in their religious observence of atheism.

    They aren't mad because AA hurts people, they're mad because it helps poeple and that threatens their core beliefe system.

    This is why they don't offer an alternative solution. They aren't interested in a solution for alcoholism. They're only concerned with getting talk of God out of the public forum.

    This is also why they 'must' be right and we 'must' be wrong. We bother them alot more than they bother us, mostly because they think about us more than we think of them.

    Sad, in an amusing sort of way.

  25. HMFIC! Ooray Joe!

    That's one spiritual muther-fucker there.

    Can someone contact Rob via email or something and let him know he made the "Quote of the Day" over at Stinkin' Thinkin'?

    Oh, and Ago sort of just joined our ranks I heard. Wonder if he'd accept our invite to here and RF? Can anybody contact him?

  26. Tony...that's quite the assumption you make. For the record I do believe in God...just not your god.

  27. Karl...people are free to believe what they want...even you and your aa friends. If you think that I might entertain a suggestion from the likes of you guess again. I tend to take my suggestions from people whom I respect...people who lie about the true nature of aa do not fall into that category.

  28. That's right, Tony. I've heard her story before. She's not atheist and may even be Christian. So... she's an authority on how A.A. is not only "religious", but does not serve alcoholics well and also does not serve "godly" people.

    The question I always would pose to our alcoholic prospects who already have a wonderful relationship with God is this, "Your understanding of God may be far superior to mine" as the book says... but how's it working on keeping you off the booze?

    And to the people who get and stay sober without A.A., "Good day ma'am..." with the tip of my hat.

    Oh, and I see Stinkin' Thinkin' has a new feature; The Dunce Room.


    Stinkin’ Thinkin’ has a policy no censorship, and we will allow just about anything short of personal threats and the publication of another person’s private information. That is not to say that we would not ban anyone, but it would take a class A asshole to meet the standard that it would take to get there. We have this policy for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, we believe the best way to learn and understand is with a free exchange of ideas. Beyond that, free speech tells a lot about a person, and much of the vile we see here in our comments section says more about the person writing it than we could ever articulate.

    Unfortunately, most of the truly crazy gets lost in abyss of the comment section, and that is a shame, because much of what we see written here re-enforces the very things we write about – specifically the use of shut down aphorisms, personal attacks and thought stopping sayings; as well as the flawed logic and irrational thinking that characterizes so many who have fallen under the spell of AA.

    We thought we would create a space to highlight the most egregious comments, or those that are so outrageously stupid, that they break the most basic premise of a civil discussion – and that is that we premise are arguments on at least a smidgen of reality.

    Below you will find a listing of some, but not all of the of the infractions in discourse that will land you in the dunce room:


    Godbotting Making an argument based on what the ‘Big Book’ says, as though it is the authoritative word. Make your arguments based on logic and reason, not on your holy scriptures.
    Gaslighting Presenting false information as though it is factually correct, and basing your argument on this information; pretending what is patently obvious is not; you may have your own opinions, but not your own facts on which you base them.
    Slogabosity The excessive use of AA slogans in a single comment. We understand that using only a couple of slogans shows tremendous restraint for an AA, but anything beyond that we really cannot tolerate.
    Logical Fallacies So many are used by AAs, and so often, that it is impossible to itemize them here. We know them when we see them, and we will point out the more egregious ones here.
    Serenity Ranting This is when you come stomping in here with your rage on, and start shrieking about how perfectly goddamn happy and peaceful you are.
    Plagiarism Don’t.
    Lunacy This blog isn’t a share session. We don’t have to tolerate delusion.
    Stupidity Reserved for only a jaw dropping display of idiocy.


    Oh, and I want to bump this request up too;

    Can someone contact Rob via email or something and let him know he made the "Quote of the Day" over at Stinkin' Thinkin'?

    Oh, and Ago sort of just joined our ranks I heard. Wonder if he'd accept our invite to here and RF? Can anybody contact him?

  29. "Tony...that's quite the assumption you make. For the record I do believe in God...just not your god."

    Is that a fact ?

    What God do I believe in, since you're not one to make assumptions.....tell me all about myself, I'm waiting to hear.

  30. Well... for one thing, her God has a [G] and your god has a [g].

    Step yer game up Tony.

  31. Madeline, You need to work on understanding the difference between religion and spitituality. Tony kindly provided a definition of religion for you. I'll give you a definition of spitituality. If you believe in a higher power, then spirituality is your personal relationship with that higher power. If you don't believe in a higher power, and think that you're the end product of human evolution (the HNFIC) then read no further. Religion and Spirituality are mutually exclusive. One does not support the other.

    I said AA is not a religious program. It isn't. It is, however, a spiritual program. Since you know very little about AA in actuality, I thought that this might clear up the issue for you. If you want to continue in your beliefs about AA, go ahead. But you really should make an effort to understand the program. Having sat in some meetings doesn't qualify you as an authority. Sorry about that.
    And I can't help but think that those people whom you admire because they know "the true nature of AA" probably have very strong opinions, but don't know jack shit about the program.

    As I said, "Condemnation without investigation...." I'd be interested in how they qualify themselves as experts on the "true nature". Some credentials, please. And my three paragraphs had nothing to do with conversion. I was simply trying to explain to you how one developes the concept of a higher power. Conversion has nothing to do with it. Conversion is a religious experience whereas one comes to believe in the tenets of a particular religion. If you polled atendees at an AA meetings, you find quite a diversity in religious beliefs. All AA asks is that you accept the concept that there's something out there that's greater than you. That's it. Simple.

    And Madeline, if you really want to agrue about the existence of God, go argue with a theologian. Read some of the great philosophers. Religion doesn't matter. All of them have great thinkers.

    If you want to continue you pseudo-sophisticated attack on something you know nothing about, clinging to the conspiracy theories of those who "know the true nature of AA" then you're free to do that, also. Just please take your tirades to someone who gives a shit. (Hey Dowg, do you think they found out our secret handshake?)

  32. I don't know what the hell's going on. I can't comment on my own damned blog. So I removed the last two to see if that's why it was jammed up. Still can't comment, so I'm gonna put Madeline's last comments here for now;

    Madeline said...
    Joe...I have no desire to argue the existence of God. What does God have to do with sobriety? You need not try to clear up anything for me, I have a very good understanding of aa and it's lies. From my very first meeting I heard the party line...aa is spiritual not religious...bogus the first time and still bogus today. Thank you however for taking the time to parrot the misinformation again.
    February 11, 2010 6:15 AM

    Madeline said...
    Tony...yes it is a fact. I could care less what god you believe in. What I do care about is that you and your aa cohorts lie to new members about what god will do or not do for them based on your "spiritual" beliefs.

  33. Ok... we're back.

    Fine, Madeline. Do you want us to argue religion and spirituality with you?

    A.A. doesn't lie about anything. If it did, it wouldn't calibrate at 540. That's the overall collective level of the program portion of the book. Take the last 4 chapters out and I'd bet that goes up to above 600. IDK, just a theory of mine. I will test the individual chapters sometime.

    And no, I'm not gonna explain that to you because you'd argue with a fence post. I'm not gonna cast those pearls to swine anymore.

    A.A.s 12 steps work. We don't believe in spirituality just as we don't believe in God.

    That's right. We know God.

    If your conscious awareness was raised to a high enough level, you would see this. But you don't. You're down at the level of guilt, shame, and sometimes rise to the level of anger ... aka condemnation and vengeance. And we are well above that and above the level of the intellect which tops off at 499. But get this; we are downwardly compatible. So we can get down into the mud with you for a while. But we won't wallow there with you for no good purpose.

    Lately, you've been on a victim kick. Why? Because it's been a profitable business for some lately.

    But in any case, 10 or 11 months does not an expert on the A.A. program you make. An expert on the fellowship? Sure.

  34. "Tony...yes it is a fact. I could care less what god you believe in. What I do care about is that you and your aa cohorts lie to new members about what god will do or not do for them based on your "spiritual" beliefs."

    You brought up the question of my God, not I. So if you could care less you have a funny way of showing it.

    Dawg thinks you are a Christian, but you aren't. Any Christian would understand a God that would help them on a personal level. And I do me 'any' Christian. You might be a JW or Mormon or one of the other non-Christians that claim to be Christians ? Although I would think they would rely on God to help them with an addiction also....so, whatever god you are talking about, it isn't the God of most people.

    If your measly little pagan god can keep you sober though, more power to you. It's no skin off my nose.

  35. There a very few time in my life when I've been absolutely at a loss for words; when I read something that is so stupid, so senseless, so bizarre, that I have no response to it. One such time has just occurred. I read the words "What does God have to do with sobriety?" I can only respond that if you have to ask that question, no answer will ever suffice.

    So guys, I guess the truth about AA if finally out. We've been exposed. There are folks out there that actually know the truth about the program. They probably know about our secret initiation ceremonies, our secret underground headquarters, our handshake, our ability to brainwash innocents who walk in the door. Egads! They probably know everything!!

    Dowg, talking with Madeline is, in the words of Barney Frank, like talking to my dining room table. I'll check back by when someone comes on with something intelligent to say.

  36. Madeline, could you publish a list of what areas of life people are allowed to turn to God for help and which areas are off limits?
    After all you seem to want to take the reins when it comes to other peoples methods and programs.
    That's by far the best part of AA recovery as opposed to all other methods and programs. We AAs have no desire to stick our noses into other programs and tell them how wrong they are.
    Lifering... "Wrong"
    Smart...... "Wrong"
    SOS........ "Wrong"
    MM......... "Wrong"
    Will Power.."Wrong"

    Oh wait!!!! That's none of my business. Never mind.

    We AAs decide to deflate our swolen Alcoholic Egos and accept the fact that we don't know what's best for everyone out there and other people need to do with their lives.

    Newsflash Madeline,,, neither do you.
    Maybe you have a "Mommy Complex" and as said before, you need to see someone.