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Tuesday, November 30, 2010

K from Stinkin' Thinkin' plays troll on the Sober Recovery forum

Here's how someone like K pulls the heartstrings of some of the sincere A.A. folk over at SR on the 12 Step Subforum and a number of good posters give him advice galore and he/she/it leads them down a path of... tomfuckery;

#1)


k


Do all alcoholics suffer depression?
---------------------------


I hear people in AA meetings say they drank when they were happy, I also hear more so with females that they drank to try and ease depression.


A few questions first how can somebody who doesn't suffer depression sponsor somebody who does, they drank for totally different reasons.


If you drink to ease depression do you think that means you are not what you might call a real alcoholic.


The AA promises describe somebody who is being cured of depression, yet not all alcoholics are depressives, apart from the depression caused by alcohol itself. In fact from studies I have read most male alcoholics have no more incidence of depression than the general population.


Also the 12 steps are clearly about morality, does mean being a depressed means you are immoral? __________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.
____________________________________________________
#2
T
I actually don't understand what you mean. I think I remember you trying to see a connection between shyness and immorality once too. I didn't understand that either. Are you dealing with the notion that you are or were a bad person?
_____________________________________________

#3
kj

A few questions first how can somebody who doesn't suffer depression sponsor somebody who does, they drank for totally different reasons.

Because the reasons I drank have no bearing on why I am an alcoholic. And those reasons have no bearing on AA's solution for alcoholism.

The Doctor's Opinion talks about classifying the types of alcoholics. The one in denial, the happy drunk, the depressive, etc. It's a trap in the book. The conclusion is IT JUST DOESN"T MATTER. If you have this particular reaction to booze, you are one of us. And the same solution that works for me will work for you.

You have a point, K. If I think I drank for 'reasons', maybe I'm not alcoholic. Take care of those reasons and the drinking problem will be solved.

But that's not me. The difference is plainly spelled out in the first 8+23 pages of the book.

If you've been around AA for a while, and don't understand this, I suggest getting with a knowledgeable sponsor and getting a real First Step experience for yourself. It's more work than trying to define differences between me and the alkie that has been there before, but it's the pathway to freedom.

Identifying differences allows my ego the illusion of control.
_________________________________________

#4

kj
The 12 Steps are not about morality. I've seen hundreds of alcoholics fail to stay sober because they falsely believed that if they just 'got good' or tried to live a moral life, they wouldn't drink. That kind of thinking kills people.

'If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago....We could try with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there.'

This is exactly the open-mindedness that is required. You have this idea or belief about the steps and about alcoholism that is blocking you from the experience. Set aside that pre-conceived notion about what alcoholism, the Steps, and a higher power is, and just have the experience that comes about by taking a few simple actions.
___________________________________________________________


#5

P

Bill W, the cofounder of AA, suffered from severe bouts of depression for nearly his entire adult life--even after he got sober.

Clinical depression is a mental illness. It's a chemical imbalance in the brain that involves neurotransmitters.

Alcoholism is an illness that involves an adverse reaction when alcohol is put into the body and a mental component, similar to amnesia or delusion, that the person will not have this adverse reaction when alcohol is put into the body.

Alcohol is also a depressant. It affects the central nervous system. It can cause depression in those who do not have a neurotransmitter imbalance. Typically their depression fades when they cease drinking. The clinically depressed person will continue to suffer from depression, even after they cease drinking, because the alcohol is not a component. Their brain chemistry is the cause of their depression.

Some alcoholics may believe they are drinking to relieve their depression, but a REAL alcoholic drinks because they are alcoholic, not because they are depressed. They'd be drinking with or without the chemical imbalance. The drinking may make their depression worse, though, as alcohol is a depressant.

In other words, they are separate illnesses.
__________________________________________

#6
PC

Why don't you just quit going to AA meetings K??
_______________________________________________

#7
K

PC says, "Why don't you just quit going to AA meetings Kurt?? "
Have done, although went back recently out of desperation. had people who know nothing about me implying things about me.


Infact during my time away from AA i had my best period of sobriety. That flies in the face of if you stop going to AA meetings you'll drink that some AAers claim.


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.
__________________________________

#8
K


AA makes me feel guilty M and guilt equals depression which makes it harder for me to resist drink.


In the AA meetings i attended i feel there is a defeatist attitude to life, ambitions are frowned upon.


I believe hope just as much the realisation of the hope is good for psycholgical well being


I don't believe ambitions are bad especially when I am only in my early thirties! when you think of yourself as powerless over life I think it is unhealthy.


being powerless over life equals depression which means its harder to resist drink.


There is another reason why I didn't drink in that period but that's personal.


I once said to my doctor that the only way i can quit drink is if my life gets better or it gets worse.


Maybe AA is right and that i want too much out of life I really really hope not


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference
______________________________
#9

kj
K says, “AA makes me feel guilty mark and guilt equals depression which makes it harder for me to resist drink.”

K, in reading your last couple of posts, an idea comes to me.

I don't know your situation, so I'm out on a limb and shooting in the dark. There is nothing about the AA program I know that involves resisting a drink. Nothing.

A set of actions that lead me to a spiritual awakening that removes my problem with alcohol and takes me to a life better than I've ever known. That's the AA program I know.

Some of the things you say you hear at meetings, some of the attitudes expressed there, are not the AA program of recovery.

Far too common is a group of people sitting around not drinking and talking about their problems and calling it AA. I agree with you. There is a vast feeling of despair and hopelessness in those rooms, interrupted occasionally by a cynical laugh.

It's like my old view of organized religions. I would find some members of whatever group who were really **** poor examples of that group and use them as a reason to discount the group (or religion, in this demonstration).

Same with AA. I can find some really **** poor, un-spiritually fit people who call themselves members of AA, who are in no way living the program of AA, and decide that AA sucks. I can do that even today. It feels good, and my ego thrives on it.

But that doesn't work for me. It doesn't keep me happy, and it most likely won't keep me sober. Instead, I sought out those who carried the message of AA. Those who could show me the directions for having a spiritual experience of my own. Truthfully, they weren't necessarily easy to find. But they are there. They have a Big Book and they actually follow the principles outlined in that book.
______________

#10
B

K says, “Also the 12 steps are clearly about morality, does mean being a depressed means you are immoral?”

First of all - the steps are about spirituality, not morality (church people might not see the difference).

Also, I may not know much about clinically depression, but I do know a lot about about despair. When I tried to quit drinking on my own, despair was was akin to going into a tail-spin for me. I could never pull out of it on my own. Sometimes it lasted for days and I was beginning to suspect it might be some form of clinical depression. However, because I lacked health insurance, I put off seeking professional help.

Then I got a job as an over-the-road truck driver and my despair became worse than ever. Fortunately, I was working steps 10,11 & 12 daily by then and found that if I focused on them 24 by 7, it relieved all of my emotional problems, not just my obsession to drink.

___________________________________________

Now... K goes into an all-out bitchfest over A.A. in the 12 Step subforum seemingly just to get a rise out of other posters there;

K says;
Maybe show a bit of respect and stop demeaning people who don't conform to your religion.








12 steps and big book was harmful to me.


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference
K, you wouldn't know respect if you found yourself down at the bus station passing out free blowjobs in the men's restroom.


Who are you to demand respect?


Now, the object of K's bitchfest;

NS says,
One last thing K. I have no issue with SMART or other recovery options (AA is not the only game in town and I am happy for anyone who beats alcoholism), they are not what I want personally, so I don't go to those threads and talk about AA because I do respect them. May I ask why you are bringing those here? They are not on trial on this thread, no one is bashing them.
Then, after that fair and gracious post, K comes back with this;
 
K says,
A newcommer is a newcommer (ie you don't know anything about them) don't try to be there psychologist by forcing what you think is best for them








Take what you need and leave the rest. If anybody grandiose claims about AAs success, then we have to look at statistical evidense. Of which there is none.






AAs success as never been tested in a court of law. If you look at the program its clearly a program that wants to make immoral people moral so its hardly surprising people are court mandated.


Infact I think it serves better at dealing with criminals than alcoholics.


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.
K says,
"People like you You really don't listen do you. could be responsible for people who shouldn't be in AA comitting suicide. How your conscious is clean is beyond me.







I recently had a friend who recently committed suicide. He was schizophrenic which in turn lead to depression, he self medicated with alcohol. Not many people new of his schizophrenia.


His problem was schizophrenia not his inflated ego. He didn't need to go around apologising to people or praying to god.






AAs answer isd you would have let him sit in a meeting, convince him that if he doesn't do the AA way then he'll drink and die. Come on lets have some rigorous honesty.






Nobody ever comes out of their first meeting with a balanced real view of how to deal with their alcoholism.


ie lots treatment of option available


I must seek medical treatment otherwise the steps won't work as dealing with my mental illness is paramount to acheiving long term good sobriety






You are not qualified to make judgements about why people go back drinking."

More wasted grace headed K's way;

This is a 12 Step support forum so, of course, it is the 12 steps that we share as our solution but we are only a small fraction of the whole of the Sober Recovery community.




Alcoholism and illnesses which can lead to alcoholism can be devastating to those suffering and those around them. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
Now an appeal to ask K, the Piece of Shit... remember that one K?  I do... K, the POS, to leave the thread and go back to his/her/it's troll hole;

OK K, this is absolutely foolish. There have been no trials, no tests. Jellinek is often mis-quoted by people here trying to dis-prove AA. AA has nothing to prove. I have been sober for 20 years because of AA, so my experience is that it works quite well. I was illiterate when I got here, but now I am earning an MBA. I was unemployable when I got here yet have had the same job for almost 16 years. I am not discounting your experience, but when you say AA does not help people stop drinking you are being foolish. This thread has nothing to do with that at all. Why do you wish to hijack it under the guise of helping people?




C'mon K, please!

Now, K really starts to get exposed, just like Stinkin' Thinkin', Mike blame denial whateverthefuck, Orange, etc...;

Quote by K:

AA has had its day. It cannot survive on scale it is now that internet has exposed the truth of its success rate.



Again K, you are showing your foolishness here.



There are about 1 million A.A. members in the U.S., according to the official A.A. survey. There is not even an accurate account of how many people came to meetings, and as anyone who has a clue, meeting attendance does not mean one has tried AA, that only means you sat your butt in a chair for an hour.



As far as the claim on the Orange Papers that AA has a less than 2% success rate. That would mean that 99 million raving alcoholics would have had to have come to A.A. meetings and failed, to balance out that paltry 1 million who got sober.



The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. That means that we would have to run 4 million people roughly through a few A.A. meetings in order to come out with 1 million people who stay in A.A. and get a bit of sobriety. With 10 million people in the U.S. classified as alcohol dependent, that means that we would have to conclude that nowadays about 40% of the alcoholics in the U.S. end up with a little bit of contact with A.A. at one time or another during their lives. And in fact, as a ball park estimate, this 40% figure matches up at least reasonably well with some very well done National Institute of Health studies.



Now having said all that, I could care less about statistics.



You really ought to stick to the secular recovery threads K, you are here to cause trouble and I will not turn a blind eye to your BS. I do not attack the way you get sober, why do you insist on attacking mine? And please stop lying that you are trying to help people. You are here to stir the pot


... and he/she/it just goes on and on and on...

The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists.



AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever. many parameters have been used to analyze for success but AA has had zero affect.


NHS Evidence - Mental health - Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programmes for alcohol dependence






Anybody ever heard of the placebo affect. Clearly none of you on here understand it.






I'll quote what my father said "AA is an evil organisation keep away from it".






I'm sorry I think the doctor is wrong its well known there are many causes of alcoholism such as in my case enough exposure to alcohol to create tolerance and withdrawall and mental illness.


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.
Now some more..

K says,
Please, please respond to this







I have seen a person attempt suicide because of depression. I have heard them make their pre suicide attempt speech, using all the self loathing terms thats used in the big book to describe what all alcoholics are suposed to be like.






Recognised treatment for depression is to write whats good about you.






The big book is full hatred of alcoholics and hence hatred for many mentally ill people.






An alcoholic was abused as a kid homeless and mentally ill i need a drink


AAs (more specifically the big book) response stop being self centred and selfish, stop trying to be the actor and controlling your life. confess your sins you are spiritually unfit.






Its vile and degrading


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.
Respond to this?  Ummm... WAA! Now, here's how a proA.A.er treats a baby milk fed boy;


You've definitely convinced me. I'm quitting AA. Who is with me? B? S?

More classic K;


We can probably assume from what hes said then that as there is no overall difference in various treatments then AA is must be wiorse than other treatments for people with mental illness, I tend to agree with that
...


Making people there mental illness down to sin and morality in the 21st century is disgusting
Hello K.  This is the English Language speaking.  Have we met before?

Originally Posted by k


The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists.


AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever. many parameters have been used to analyze for success but AA has had zero affect.


 Originally Posted by k



The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists.


AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever. many parameters have been used to analyze for success but AA has had zero affect.



Originally Posted by k



The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists.


AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever. many parameters have been used to analyze for success but AA has had zero affect.
Now... maybe I need to back off of K.  Maybe I'm being harsh.

Oh, maybe not;

another KJ says,

"Thanks for coming on the 12 STEP FORUM and bashing our program.




I hope you find some peace in your life. Maybe you've even turned a few people off recovery in general with your confusingly sharp comments."
K


I just hope that I have encoraged people to think twice with who they are dealing with when a newcommer comes through the door.



Mentally ill peoples priority in order to combat their alcoholism is deal with the mental health issues. Firstly by getting off the booze possibly with a detox.


The big book is just an opinion


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.
K;

AA is not for me and its not for everybody



I remember though that overpassion is what turned anakin intom darth vader. I must also remember this too. LOL!
 _________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.
May the Force be with you K.  Shozbot, Nanu Fucking Nanu.
... and yet another Pro-A.A.ers retort to K's attempted anti/XAer slam;



You've definitely convinced me. I'm quitting AA. Who is with me? B? NS?






I have tried quitting AA dozens of times. The problem is, even though it is fallible. It is still the best recovery I have found so far.



SMART and Rational Recovery are little more than psychological tricks&tips that only help those who never drank to the point of developing all 3 aspects of full-blown alcoholism;



A allergy of the body

An obsession of the mind

A spiritual malady

Another proAAer comments on K's bullshit;

Originally Posted by k


Anybody ever heard of the placebo affect. Clearly none of you on here understand it.


It's the placebo effect, not affect, and funny you should trot that out in this discussion as there is tremendous argument in the medical community over it's effectiveness.

__________________

All quotes are from the Alcoholics Anonymous.1st Edition

Ha Ha K!  Bitchslap!

Originally Posted by k


The big book is just an opinion
...and YET another classy proA.A.er;
So is that ^^^

_______________________________________

254. kurtrambis (aka k) says



K, so you got beat up in AA?


Also whats a horn dog?

9 comments:

  1. ran across this blog while doing some research and felt compelled to comment.

    My husband is a recovering alcoholic and with his complete and total fear and loathing of AA, I never thought he'd be able to successfully quit, but his 20+ years sobriety says otherwise. It was far harder for him to quit smoking.

    The world is made up of many different types of people, and not everyone benefits from support groups. That's not BS, it's just how it is.

    If AA works for you, wonderful! You should understand and be willing to accept the fact that it here are many different ways to sobriety, and everyone has the right to their own opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I go to A.A. when I can because I want to. When I go next Thursday I'll be sure to remind them of your story. I'm sure they won't give a fuck, but I'll do it to validate your feelings about anti-A.A.

    ReplyDelete
  3. What is your husband still recovering from? Sucks for him if after 20 years he's still sick, which is what the word recovering implies. I broke my leg when I was 16, I'm 41 now, I'm not still recovering from my busted leg. You may think this is semantics, it is not, words hold power and shape our thoughts. If your husband wants to play small ball thats fine, if he wants to get recovered, some of us know how to do this, or maybe you'll never come back to this site again, we aren't particularly warm and fuzzy, neither is alcoholism.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Soberrecovery just banned me for debating alcoholism is not a disease.

    Belive what you want but no debate is allowed on this FRAUD website.

    Whats wrong Soberrecovery ? Are you just a front for the treatment center industry ???

    SOBERRECOVERY A FRAUD WEBSITE !!!

    Quick Facts about Psychiatry

    While posing as “authorities” on the mind and mental health, psychiatry has no scientific basis for any of its treatments or methods. Presented herein is specific evidence debunking several of the main claims and methods of this pseudo-science.

    Real Disease vs. Mental “Disorder”

    Psychiatric disorders are not medical diseases. There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition. This is not to say that people do not get depressed, or that people can’t experience emotional or mental duress, but psychiatry has repackaged these emotions and behaviors as “disease” in order to sell drugs. This is a brilliant marketing campaign, but it is not science.

    Soberrecovery , selling fraud for the APA disease mongers and big pharma.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Welcome to the blog. I was banned from Sober Recovery in about 2010, as well as Jimhere, RobB, Tony aka Ribeye, and we have a couple of authors who survived a wave of bannings.

    Did you post in 12 step much? Wonder if justfor1 is Tiburon88 incarnate. I wonder if CarolD misses me. I wonder if Veritas... aka keepcomingback... aka slipper is going to change her username again and try to become a soberrecovery knowitall... or will she just go back to the laundry room and drink her boxed wine.

    Well anywho, welcome here where we have no censorship, save for spam screening, and no advertisement.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Another reason I no longer go to Sober Recovery. Too much bullshit.

      Delete
  6. Replies
    1. Been back for a while, Patrick. LA sucked. Probably said the Serenity Prayer 20 times a day.

      Delete


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