Are anti/XAers claiming that A.A. causes suicide?

Another blog is running a thread about whether or not A.A. is the culprit for so many suicides and not the nature of the "fatal malady" itself.

"I think that some people might find that the connection isn’t between AA and suicide, but between alcoholism and suicide, and that highlighting the correlation is specious. What is your take on that?"

Specious; having a false look of truth, deceptive attraction.

The writer claims to not know much about the topic of "suicide" but wants to learn more about it by opening the topic up to the predominantly anti/XAers... see if they can't form an outline of sorts. Yeah right.

She cites the Vaillant Surveys; Now we're going to see some personal testimonies and comments on the topic;

• _ says
  I’d bet it’s both. Sure, alcoholism is dangerous and depressing and can lead to suicide. But the 12 steps are depressing and defeating and seem to facilitate “benders,” so I’d say they exacerbate the suicide rate. Hmmm. Not my experience in the steps. I've found them to be very freeing actually. I have seen a lot of people in A.A. who do everything but steps and repeat the same drunkalogues over and over again. I wouldn't say their total life is a waste. I would say they could do better in a spiritual sense and I wonder why they stay in A.A., but who knows? Maybe I'll be in their shoes one day. I could see myself just walking away from A.A. at any given time. But right now, I see a bunch of hope and a bunch of cool folks enjoying themselves in A.A. For most, it's not a death sentence.
• A reference to a blamethenile vid... _ says, "This is undoubtedly the worst problem of the AA faith, and their promotion of the concept of “powerlessness” which when combined with the AA faith’s promotion of telling people they have a progressive, incurable, and terminal disease, leads people to hopelessness. This misinformation is promoted by people that have NO credibility."I'm not even going to watch that stupid video. I can imagine how they manipulate the data and the goings on at meetings. Which is it, a religion, a cult, a place to get 13th stepped, or a place to commit suicide? Get real for just a minute. Not my experience. If it was, it would make me look pretty bad for just being a part of it. That's exactly what you will jump on next; McGowdog... bad dawg!
• _says, "In October of 2000, I attempted suicide. I was drunk and took a whole bottle of tranquilizers. I knew what I was doing–I wasn’t in a blackout. I grew up in AA. My first meeting was at age 15. I would relapse and leave about every six years, thinking my only way out of the program was to drink, just like the group told me. I was a naive and impressionable girl. The women who 1st-stepped me–all I can remember now (I have blocked out most of my early days in AA) is they said something like, “Listen to these people and learn.” So I did listen. I was indoctrinated young. Eventually I started thinking, day and night in cult-speak. It made its way into my creative writing; my conversations with non-program people; and it dominated my thinking for over 20 years. I was desperate–with that one little shred of my mind I wouldn’t let them have–to get away from these people, but I was so afraid that I would relapse (which would happen anyway) that I kept coming back for more brainwashing. I have finally gotten away from the program to the havens of this blog and the orange papers and Rational Recovery. I truly have only begun to deprogram my mind from this lifeblood-sucking cult. Had ONE person in treatment or a therapist in all of my years of therapy told me there are options, I might have been spared so many wasted years. But in the 80s, I don’t know that there were too many other options. Anyway, in 2000, as I was desperately trying to stay sober for thirty days while going to the program, I relapsed again. Obviously something (I do believe it was not me) was “honestly” not working. As I contemplated my choices of jails, institutions and death or AA, I became increasingly suicidal. I have depressive tendencies anyway, but I felt the walls were closing in on me, in terms of the either/or rhetoric that was fed me. After three days I woke up in a hospital bed, and as soon as I was stable: one guess as to where I was sent. Yet more brainwashing. I had been around for a long time by then, had seen some pretty amazingly unhealthy and downright twisted behavior, and just couldn’t believe I was destined to mix with crazy people in a crazy cult. All I wanted was out. I had been through graduate school by then, majoring in English and having acquired critical thinking skills. I have finally gotten sober. I haven’t been sober long and am some days barely hanging on. I am inspired by this site, and inspired seems a funny word since many of you are atheists. It doesn’t matter to me. Many of you are sane and make sense, and I can’t thank “Mr. Orange” enough for what his online book has done for me. I am new here, and wonder if you all have any non-12 step suggestions for a fledgling former cult-er who is trying very hard to stay away from the all-too-seductive lure of AA and /or booze. Peace." You... are a certified nutjob. You are/were socialized in A.A. You are a drama queen and should seek outside help.
• _ says "I have lost several friends to AA’s self fulfilling prophecy of death. One hung himself with chain after a meeting, another drank himself to death in front of a steak and glass of wine like in the big book story, and another took some pills and went to bed.
  All these and many more were my favorite people to hang out with. They were uncommonly fun, enjoyed road trips, eating out, etc.
  They all went to AA, accepted the indoctrination, and died due to a modified belief system. This is what I hate about AA.
  AA’s need to teach others that there are many ways to quit or moderate drinking instead of teaching they have the only cure." You know... I think that the removal of all the MOTR and slogan shit would go a long way to resolving a lot of problems in A.A. When stuff gets added in and people try to hustle others into A.A. just because it worked for them... I could see where it could cause problems. Hope I don't partake in such BS. If I was harming people inside or outside of A.A., my life would suffer. Why would I want that? I do have a conscience, you know? Most of us do. We are not the Hells Angels and meth dealers and puppy killers.
• _ says, "I saw one friend die in a similar fashion, though I don’t believe he actually meant to commit suicide. He had been forced into the 12 steps and just couldn’t get it……..and was told the fault was his. Whilst he “moderated” his alcohol to a degree, his guilt made him him look elsewhere and he died injecting heroin. I’m sure from speaking to him just before he died that his failure to work the steps was the main factor, in his mind though certainly not mine. I always told him to “get out more”………..live life, see people and stop the self pity, but he had too many people from within AA telling him he was weak, diseased and going to die. It’s a disgusting programme for some folks who don’t need bullying. I would love to take issue with this guy and the way he was “abuse works on most everyone – being vulnerable to it is not a character defect or the result of a dysfunctional background. Isn’t there some recovery program based on having more fun in life, instead of on becoming sober and gloomy? pushed” to his death but there’s no point in AA." Bullying? Really? If someone tries to force you into doing something ... inside of A.A. ... a person ought to be able to stand up for themselves and just say "No". It may get you "fired" as a sponsee, but who gives a fuck? I give thou personal power to not be victims and to run your own life... inside and outside of A.A. It works for me. And I really really want it to work for you too. I hate the slogan, "But for the grace of God there go I." I hated it before you stupifucks brought it up. I was told to not cuss so much. Oops.
• _ says, "Yes, well, it’s like being sent to one of those Khmer Rouge style reeducation camps, at the level of the mindfuck. Of course it drives people off the cliff. And I’m not joking!" A.A. drives people off the cliff? That's believable.
• _ says, "... and I think that you can use your experience in AA as a springboard to help a lot of people deprogram from AA and find an exit strategy." Exit strategy... "What are you doing tonight? Going to an A.A. meeting?" Hmmm. No. Not ever again. They kill people and entice them into suicide. Think I'll watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer instead."
• _ says, "AA can pour huge amounts of shit on people. None of it is worth dying for." Lots of shit... Shit happens, but it usually doesn't get poured on people. No?
• _ says, " Sure, suicide is selfish, AA is a selfish program. Those that I have known who did it did so because there was no hope. They believed they were bodily and mentally different from their fellows as AA teaches. AA had taught them that there were no other options for serenity other than an AA recovery. They kept coming back even though it didn’t work for them. They killed themselves because they could not take the pain any more.
  I did hear this one good platitude about suicide in AA: Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
  Tell it to someone who can’t take the pain anymore, they probably can’t even hear you?" You know enough about A.A. to be dangerous. Ever heard that one? I've heard some nasty mean shit in A.A. come to think of it. I usually laugh. But I'm twisted. And a lot of people know me, so... they are not threatened by me! Hell, I know most of the people in A.A. meetings. If there was a new person, I/we certainly wouldn't want to run them off or run them off a cliff or run them into suicide! You fucksticks are amusing yourselves at our expense, no?
• _ says, "The thing is, AA would teach you that there is no hope – but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Things will get better (especially if you leave AA and get some real help for your addiction and/or suicidal feelings). For the record, I know a person who attempted suicide as a direct result of steppers telling her that she was powerless and defective and would inevitably die a miserable alcoholic death as the result of one lapse. AA teaches despair to vulnerable people who need real help. That is why they should be stopped, or at least be made publicly accountable. Or at the very least be required by law to get some proper qualifications before they are allowed to “counsel” impressionable addicted people and foist their misanthropic and hopeless world view upon them." There again... you know enough about A.A. to be dangerous to yourself and others. Accountable? People in A.A. are accountable for everything they say and do.
• _ says, " I am older and wiser now, and I have recognized the AA program for what it is: a cult that lures people in with its false promises of a better life. I really do believe it is a cult, but how could I have known any better as an impressionable young teen?" Back to the professional and institutionalized XA member.
• k says, "The main reason why I am a critic if AA is based on my observations of 2 people sharing in a meeting their suicidal thoughts, one of which actually attempted suicide the other I am not sure about.
  Their shares incuded the blanket derogatory name calling of themselves as alcoholics about them being selfishness, egotitsical etc. straight out of the big book. They wondered why other people, like their guru sponsor could get it and they couldn’t.
  They didn’t have any of these traits, the big book had convinced them they had and because of the promises hadn’t come true and they were still depressed they felt like a failure aswell, probably dishonest as thats what the big book says of people who fail the program.
  The modern perspective on treating the majority of people with depression is to raise self esteeem and not try and smash it like the big book of AA does.
  I repeatedly posted similar stuff on SR until I got banned (woohoo). The AAers response was that it was an outside matter, they must be spiritually unfit." (oh k! Join the club! Except the rest of us are and will continue to be sober. You're not.)They fail to grasp that becasue AA believes people are suffering alcoholism even years after not drinking!What are its symptoms, well for a start the promises describe a person going from being depressed to being happy. So understanbly people think their depression and desire to drink to self medicate is alcoholism, rather than depression.
  Alcoholism involes drinking alcohol it can cause depression and depression can cause alcoholism but they are different things
  The AA program, the big book seems aimed at narcissists and people of a deviant nature. Not all people who drink alcoholically fit into these stereotypes of alcoholics. Hello K. I saw that one coming. It's too bad too. Some of the folks from the Sober Recovery 12 Step Subforum fillet'd you like a fish and skinned you like a dear whenever you went stumbling into there. You've found a good home. Hope you can maintain that sobriety and keep that victim card handy.
• That "Quote of the Day" where tiburon88 was being called out by an SR poster. I've got a tiburon88 post in here somewhere, if you want to see where that troll is coming from.A postback here to tiburon88 from SR. He's the one who says he walked into an A.A. meeting... sober, and said, "I hope you all relapse in here." Part of me think that's funny, but part of me would have been shoving my boot up part of tiburon's ass if he'd have said that in my meeting. Don't commit suicide though. Just go away.
• _ says, "The other problem is that AA as a baseline encourages thinking that is extremely conducive to feelings of intense shame and moralizing. Someone I know actually hung himself after he got clean. It was after really having time to think about it and his behavior on meth, that he felt irredeemably evil. Suffice it to say, he was most certainly not.Suicide is complicated without addiction thrown into the mix. Throw in addiction and it gets exponentially moreso." A.A. does not teach shame, you idiots! It teaches surrender, courage, acceptance, forgiveness, reason, love, joy... Suicide is about apathy! Shit! If you're gonna kill yourself, go fucking drink instead. How many times have I said, "I'd rather have a bottle infrontofme than a frontal lobatomy"?
• _ says, "Actually, I would guess that AA suicides are not usually “selfish” at all. The program is designed to instill fear, hopelessness and powerlessness – and often involves a huge amount of psychological bullying too. Sometimes the only control over his or her life that a person feels they have is the decision to end it." Surrender is the path to integrity. With surrender comes power. It's a mere matter of changing course. When people come into A.A., they aren't usually looking for suicide prevention. They are looking for help on getting sober. Duh!
• _ says, " I learned not only to recognize my right to get angry, but the fact that it’s completely normal for people to get angry from time to time.(Like many people, I was brought up to believe that getting angry was always bad.) It’s interesting that AA has an open policy of telling people they are not allowed to feel or display anger – ever – even if they have very good cause. This in itself is almost bound to lead to depression, and that can possibly lead to suicide, because people will continue to feel anger but will repress it and beat themselves up about it. There are plenty of AA-ers posting very angrily all over the internet, though. I wonder if they pretend to be serene when they’re with their AA pals?" Having anger and dealing with resentments are two different things. I can get mad any fucking time I want to bitch! See? I don't act any certain way amongst those in A.A. If I'm in a meeting, I state my current experience on the topic. I tell the fucking truth. If I feel like cussing, I cuss. We cuss. WTFuck?
• _ says, "says
  To find the smoking gun on AA and suicide, you only need to look at conference-approved AA literature. They admit AA members contribute to suicides in their conference approved pamphlet, “The AA Member — Medications & Other Drugs”. Page 13 states “AA members and many of their physicians have described situations in which depressed patients have been told by AAs to throw away the pills, only to have the depression return with all of its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.”http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-11_aamembersMedDrug.pdf" Here's one I want to look into further. I think it's possible that these claims are true and are a problem. Don't play fucking doctor in A.A. If I see someone doing it, I'm going to piss in their wheaties and tell the victim of it to not listen to such bullshit. My manic depressive friend is an example of this (the current one whom is still alive). I told him to listen to his doctor, find another meeting, and he did.
• _ says, "_ says
  _, have a look at NICE on AA. And tell me what you think might be done.I think that AA has played a sort of big con trick on everyone, even those who don’t come into contact with it. They are just universally admired for their bravery. Therefore lots of people drink themselves to death rather than submit to it." IDK. Maybe you're right? What do we do about it? Maybe your secular programs will help people from commiting suicide once you get off your XA Cult Blog and go start some meetings for these folks to get some f2f attention... kind of like A.A., but less suicidal.
• _ says, " I have struggled with anxiety and depression as far back as age 11. That’s why I drank–to feel better. That’s why I ever drank. I had been through treatment all through my teen years and AA as well. My emotional/mental (not intellectual) growth was severely damaged both by drinking and the brainwashing I got in AA. It really did a number on me. I had been hospitalized for suicidal ideation several times before I actually attempted it. I learned that talking about it=mental hospital and more steps. As I have said, it is or APPEARS to be a selfish act, but when you’re in the other person’s shoes, you can surely understand he or she is not capable of thinking straight. I had one focus in mind. I wanted the whole thing simply to STOP. I wanted to stop drinking; I wanted out of AA; I wanted out of my mental disorder, etc. I wanted my life back from all of these mental health bastards who had their hands all over it. I wasn’t living. I was simply existing, and I wanted out, end of story.It has taken ten years for me to regain control over my life, and while I am still on medication and seeing a therapist, I feel so much better to be free from AA and the sickness it perpetuates. I am soooo glad to have stumbled upon this blog and the orange papers, I can’t tell you how freeing that is. Peace." A.A. is not a babysitting service. Get a shrink.
• _ says, "I think your post hilights the vital importance of what is done by this small group of people. People do die, and they die alot, and they kill others in drunk driving accidents, due to the misinformation that is promoted by this industry.
  People are told, unfortunately by people that are given unearned credibilty, that they have a progressive, incurable, and terminal disease. They also have “powerless” instilled in them.
  This industry does have the facts against them. They also cannot control the internet, although I am sure they would love to.
  When I was in the spin dry (2007), there were no phones, TV, internet services, and the only reading material was AA approved literature. As I look back now it said “CULT” all over it. It was in NO way medical treatment.
  Out of the other “inmates” I was “incarcerated” in the rehab, that I have remained in contact with, I am the only one that actually did stop drinking.
  I do feel it is vitally important to try to educate others about the con game the recovery industry is. It is great to see sites like this, and see others confront the industry.
  The industry does not have the facts behind it, and they crumble under intense questioning. That is why sites like Dr. Phil are so highly censored.
  We can change peoples thinking. It is a massive undertaking, but I am a firm believer that we save lives by what we do. I am just incredibly thankful that Agent Orange took the time to create his masterpiece." So, A.A. causes people to drive drunk too? Wow! Nice to have a scapegoat.
• I had a friend who went into her car in the garage with her 2 older dogs turn on her car and killed herself and she said because she couldnt do the AA way and felt so much guilt. Then this girl at the furneal said and I quote” she couldnt follow a simple program” wow she blamed her and of course not AA/ AA blames you shames you. Alot of people who relapsed all the time felt like a failure in the rooms and killed thereselves. AA is not a program of thinking on your own. You are not allow to think on yourown remember you best thinking got you there. You are not allow to depend on you own thinking –AA insisted if you leave AA or dont get AA you will DIE. AA kills no doubt about that. AA people do not trust themselves and heavy dependency on there program, endless meetings . Abuse and lots of milious gossip. AA is self-center narrcisstic to the max. Every single person I have met in those rooms was NPD. I get sick when I think about the shame they induce on you. AA is a destructive-abusive… Leaving AA is the best thing that ever happen to me. I am sober and clean because I made a choice to do so. In the 4th step when you have had abuse as a child phycially-sexually you are to look at your part. bullshit. Trauma is not a light matter and a person (sponsor) telling you to see your part. is so FU. AA has been around for a long time due to them using the word God. AA is far away from true God. The enemy is clapping here not God. Dick B will burn in hell for trying to cram AA as christian roots. If he so christian then why not defend the bible and help christians through the bible. AA thinks its the bible. AA is false. Bill or Bob had a mistress-smoke like crazy and left some of his roylaties to her. He was never a christian he was antichrist. His big white light experince was because he was doing LSD. How can AAers overlook that. So many are decieved. The bible is strict that you cannot serve 2 masters nor idiolize or have any gospel you choose. It pisses me off when I hear AA say its christian roots BS. I really think that a book should be wrote more than one on there experinces of horror with AA. The truth will come out again its only a little amount of time. When I have heard in the rooms oh i Church it didnt work BS again. You mean you tried Jesus and didnt work. AA for me was the most fucked up program i have ever attended and that includes the people . SELFISH -extremly easily mind control. " Here we go again with the fucking preaching. Talk to my born-again Southern Baptist brother. You can save each other. We'll all go to hell together too. It'll be fun. So long as you lead the fucking way. I'd rather drink than hear your preaching.
• _ says, "Plus they will tell you its divinely inspired and that they still cannot think on there own 20 plus years later.. still having a sponsor to think.. its very sad , very sad that AA kills your spirt and your God given right to think on your own and be empowered. AA is defeat no win they believe there are never to blame" Some of us have found something that works for us. Where should the blame come in? Blame is a weak demonic force that is conquered by Step fucking 1! Merely surrendering to some power greater than yourself will enable you to have a smigeon of hope, or at least seek it... then if followed up some action, you'll be so fucking beyond the forces of death. Now... if you're a certified loon or a chronically depressed individual and need some outside help, get it. In A.A., we're gonna talk about God. Deal. Cope.
• _ says, "I remember AA largely as a tawdry melodrama. Sudden deaths of members through drink, drugs or suicide were just grist to the gossip mill or anecdotal illustrations to self-serving 12 step sermons (“There but for the grace of God, blah, blah, blah….”)It doesn’t surprise me that there is a high rate of suicide in AA, given that so many people have co-occurrring mental problems such as depression and they meet with so little understanding from those immersed in the AA dogma. Many, as k mentioned, drank to self-medicate an underlying mental health problem. I did." I didn't. I drank because I rather enjoyed it... the sense of comfort and ease that proceeded a few drinks and all. Call it dogma all you wish. If you want to start another program from the ground up or do something besides A.A., I give you my permission.
• _ says, "I remember one guy at a step meeting saying that he wouldn’t go to a funeral of his friend who died alcoholic because he didn’t get the program, he wouldn’t do it.He also said in another meeting calling counsellors, other none AA based help." Well I guess he was a sick fuck. That's not very nice.
• _ says, "AA is not interested in underlying and possibly fatal psychological issues that might drive people to drinking in the first place. They really do believe in divine interventionist miracles, and that praying to the god of AA will cure people, not just of alcoholism but of any other ‘spiritual defects’ – which is how they view psychological illnesses or disorders. I think we all have to recognize that we’re dealing with serious fundamentalist lunatics here. How often do convinced steppers stop to consider that other psychological issues might be anything to do with alcohol abuse, and how often do they advise newcomers to get some kind of proper help? (Answer: They don’t.) I even read McGowDog saying on another site that if people prayed more they wouldn’t get cancer (because someone he knows who smokes but prays hasn’t got cancer – yet). Apart from the obvious bollocks this is, it is incredibly insulting for people who have spent their whole life praying, have led a ‘spiritual’ life , and who still get cancer ( people like my mother, for instance. She led a damn sight more of a useful and ‘spiritual’ life than you ever seem destined to do, McDog or whatever your name is). Well, it’s hugely insulting and damaging to anyone at all, believer or non-believer."Who in the fuck are you to say that God isn't all. That God can't take care of other things? You can't tell me that a good doctor won't tell his/her patients to pray for their condition if they are a person of faith.
• _have been a victim of a con trick. A horrible horrible brainwashing con-trick. It is indeed a version of hell to be an unwilling member says, "As for suicide in AA – I have seen it and I understand. People end up in AA because they can’t cope, and they are treated with methods that don’t help. As of yet, no one has the answer for the emotional agony that some of use used drugs and alcohol to cover up. They can get you clean, but then you’re just raw." Maybe what you were missing was power to live in the world and to have a happy satifying life. A.A. has a method to help you out... if you're a real alcoholic that is. If you've got other issues, you might want to table that and decide if you need/want A.A. or not. You can TRY to do A.A. to solve some problems and to feel good and comfortable and stuff. But you ain't gonna get comfortable is you do what's outlined. If after doing Step 7, you don't find some kind of renewed hope in your ability to have a great life, leave. Do something else or do it again and demand to find out what you missed.
• _ says, "_, stick around. You . It is the people who have suffered who drive me to exposeaa. You are one, I am one. I used to read about extreme cults just in order to cheer myself up!
  I feel lucky that I found Orange before I got a sponsor, did a share, etc etc.
  Your rejection of aa cult dogma (it is a cult in my house, z!) is in fact incredibly mentally healthy in my humble opinion. " Welcome to your new fucking cult. Now go make vids about how guys want to do their own mother and describe which position he wants to get her in... that's real nice youtube entertainment. You guys are fucking liars and discredit yourselves with your over the top drama.
• _ says, "By doing this AA handed me a “one size fits all” list of life problems to solve, taking the focus off of the real problems and creating new ones.
  I thought that these AA folks were the experts on addiction, and so I believed what they taught me about myself. I adopted all of the AA isms and started to believe that I was an inherently defective misfit who just couldn’t get anything right.
  The more I got involved in the steps… The deeper my depression became. I was looking at my past through the lense provided by AA and that made my future prospects seem much darker… That’s when I attempted suicide for the first time.
  I want to be clear… AA did not cause me to attempt suicide… AA did foster feelings of hopelessness and despair that contributed to my irrational decision.
  It’s pretty simple from my perspective.
  AA uses mind control and psychological manipulation to recruit new members.A small percentage of those who go to AA for help stick with the cult… A larger percentage never adhere and leave the cult without thinking too much about it… and a small percentage leave the cult in despair due to the self-defeatism they’ve learned as members… Many of these folks lose hope and commit suicide as a result.
  I can’t prove it, but my personal experience tells me that AA drives people to suicide."
• _ says, "I think that kills this thread.
  Oh well… on to another." Is "one size fits all" the new anti/XAer buzz term?

Well, that solves it then. Anti/XAers pretty much think we in A.A. cause suicide. Bummer. I'd like to take some time going over these claims... treating them separate... considering some of them more carefully.

I didn't want to engage this topic over there. There are 38 of them and 1 of me.

I would like to jump ahead and address the mention of me in there. I don't remember specifically what I said about smoking and getting cancer or not getting cancer. I have been of the belief that people who smoke and don't worry about it seem to do better than those who smoke and worry about it or have a weak life-force. DRH said something about naturally grown tobacco correlated positively and those that use pesticides correlate negatively. IDK. I'm glad I've since quit all forms of tobacco and that my mom, a lung cancer survivor, has quit cigarettes as well. People who smoke stink anyway. Yuck.

______________________________________

On a personal note; I know three people who commited suicide. My uncle...with booze, who had once committed a vehicular manslaughter and never lived it down, a guy who was manic depressive and I never saw it coming... very sad, and a guy who I used to work with. I'd partied with him at the bar many a time and eventually, after work some times. I saw him leave his family and shack up with women who would do coke with him and stuff. He got back with his family and I thought that was a very happy ending. He got hooked up with meth and soon thereafter, he hung himself. At the funeral, I discovered he had molested his own daughter.

That's what the fucking truth looks like, folks. It's not cause effect. You have to look at the full context of things. If you think that's psychobabble, it's not. I'm just so fucking far over your heads. Learn how to see the truth in stuff and quit blaming others for your miserable lives. Go help someone out. Go volunteer to Meals on Wheels or something. Get outta your negative heads.

Trying to discredit A.A. with this Orange-induced lunacy is... ludacris.

Good night kiddies.

Roll Call

God... and his Gibson








So, I'd like to welcome our newest follower... Paul.

Today (yesterday) was Paul's 1 year sobriety birthday.

Happy Birthday to ya! One year sober is a big deal. Good to see it.

I don't know much else about Paul, but... now might be the time for us all to take roll call and see who's here, how you're doin'...

I'm sober tonight and well. Wife is sick. Hope she gets over her allergies soon. I've got someone I'm trying to take through the steps. What's that called? I'm I a sponsor now? What if I get fired? The pressure's on.

I am McGowdog and I approve this post.

See you all in the comment section.

Alcoholics Anonymous heads down to San Antonio

Bear down








Kurt Rambis hijacks a nice thread in the 12 Step subforum over at Sober Recovery. The "Wired" article gets brought up there too. They're gonna see my comments. They get another opportunity to ignore me. Fun fun. Anyway, here's a good example of a wacko anti/wanna be XAer making an utter foo out of himself while parroting his Stinkin'Thinkin' buddies' rhetoric.

• Also can you tell me what the truth is and provide the proper (stand up in a court of law) evidense
• Personally if I am going to obey the commands of AA, I like prove it works, of which there is none.
• Luckily I live in an area where there other treatment options are available.
• 12 steps and big book was harmful to me.
• To be fare ***** most of comments were aimed ***** and *****
• ... other ways of sobriety then would realise that the 12 steps are but suggestions.
• A newcommer is a newcommer (ie you don't know anything about them) don't try to be there psychologist by forcing what you think is best for them
• ...then we have to look at statistical evidense. Of which there is none.
• You really don't listen do you.
• People like you You really don't listen do you. could be responsible for people who shouldn't be in AA comitting suicide. How your conscious is clean is beyond me.
• Not many people new of his ...
• paramount to acheiving long term good sobriety [New rule... i before e except after ch]
• You are not qualified to make judgements about why people go back drinking. Bull fucking shit. You're not fucking qualified Kurt Rambis.

ProAAer steps in and calls Kurt Rambis on his bullshit; "Why do you wish to hijack it under the guise of helping people?"

C'mon Kurt! Please!

• There are about 1 million A.A. members in the U.S., according to the official A.A. survey. There is not even an accurate account of how many people came to meetings, and as anyone who has a clue, meeting attendance does not mean one has tried AA, that only means you sat your butt in a chair for an hour.
  
  As far as the claim on the Orange Papers that AA has a less than 2% success rate. That would mean that 99 million raving alcoholics would have had to have come to A.A. meetings and failed, to balance out that paltry 1 million who got sober.
  
  The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. That means that we would have to run 4 million people roughly through a few A.A. meetings in order to come out with 1 million people who stay in A.A. and get a bit of sobriety. With 10 million people in the U.S. classified as alcohol dependent, that means that we would have to conclude that nowadays about 40% of the alcoholics in the U.S. end up with a little bit of contact with A.A. at one time or another during their lives. And in fact, as a ball park estimate, this 40% figure matches up at least reasonably well with some very well done National Institute of Health studies.
  
  Now having said all that, I could care less about statistics.

Ok, now back to Kurt Rambis;

• The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists
• AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever.

Prooved? Hmmm. Really? "Graduate of mathematics"..., prooved? Hmmm.

• Anybody ever heard of the placebo affect. Clearly none of you on here understand it

Ok fucking genius... well, I'll just let a proAAer from SR take it from here;

It's the placebo effect, not affect, and funny you should trot that out in this discussion as there is tremendous argument in the medical community over it's effectiveness.

And since I don't regulate myself here... fucking DUMBASS! Sue the fucksticks who awarded you your "Graduate of mathematics"!

Another proAAer at SR:

Hey Kurt...

Thanks for coming on the 12 STEP FORUM and bashing our program.

I hope you find some peace in your life. Maybe you've even turned a few people off recovery in general with your confusingly sharp comments.

I have tried quitting AA dozens of times. The problem is, even though it is fallible. It is still the best recovery I have found so far.

SMART and Rational Recovery are little more than psychological tricks&tips that only help those who never drank to the point of developing all 3 aspects of full-blown alcoholism;

________________________________________________

You guys over at Sober Recovery really need to be careful of this shit. This is the kind of stuff that gets you in trouble with the TOS, even though you're being baited and flamed by a retard who can't keep himself sober, but likes to make a mockery of A.A. and is motivated by his anti/XAer buddies who mimick Agent Orange jargon.

Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works

HOW IT FUCKING WORKS!



So there's an article in Wired here

Good to see some comments pro and con. It took me a couple of days to digest the whole thing. Reading the comments from some of our detractors, A.A. must have been shed in a slightly positive light. Some of the article was bunk, but they seemed to be fairly open about different sources in putting together a biography of A.A. from 35' to now. Some things I agree with pretty well and some things were just wrong, but the proAA comments addressed those errors pretty well.

The detractors spoke their piece as well. You know? The typical 5% blah blah blah religion blahblahblah cult blah blah blah 13th stepping screwing his secretary smoking bastard blahblahblah. LSD!

Boring!

Like I said to some "ankle biter" on youtube,

What do you care about how much pussy Bill W. had? You're not his love-child are you? What do you care about his lungs and his bank account? What do you care about how much acid he dropped?

How about these stats? 1)How many times did he get drunk and wreck his motorcycle or car since his Towns experience? 2)How many black eyes did he give Lois while sober? 3)How many times did he burn a house down due to his smoking?

How many drunks did he help to not do the above ? What about Dr. Bob? Would we be having this conversation had Dr. Bob outlived Bill W? Did the two complement each other pretty well?

That was in response to this comment of his;

He 13th stepped more pussy than you or I've had hot dinners...Screwed 'em 2 X 2 since the Oxford Groups he did...Took more acid than the Grateful Dead ever did between 1958 and 1961...Chain smoked until his terminal breath in an iron lung...Left 10% of his Big Book royalties to his mistress...Demanded whiskey on his deathbed...I dunno if this guy had the answer to liberation from addiction and living an ethical life...What do you think...?
Hammersley1967 1 day ago



No exaggeration there btw. I'm sure he tripped 50 times a week and fucked more women than Wilt Chamberlin, Steve Garvey, and Magic Johnson (until he became Tragic Johnson) combined. Here's the difference between you and Lois; she didn't bitch till eternity about it!

They're starting to sound like fucking parrots to me. It's the same bullshit over and over and over again.

There's some fucked up shit going on in A.A. to be for sure. There's some real fucking hair-lips and han-han-hoey's in A.A. But if you ain't in it to put the bullshit aside, roll up your sleeves and help them out, step aside and shut your fucking holes!

You don't know how it fucking works! We do! Step aside son. We've got work to do and we're gonna do it.

Here, answer me this fucking question, anti/XA/AA Hater brainiacs; of those 95% who fail in A.A., how many of them are getting what they want? What percentage is that?

If given the chance, how would you propose to fix A.A.?

Let's see where we are at with A.A. What can we all agree on?

Some people are fine with A.A. as it is now. For whatever it's worth, some people can come to a meeting and take it as it comes. They come with the expectations of getting a little fellowship, maybe sharing their ESH if called on, helping with the coffee, the tea, the chairs, etc... they put their buck or two in the basket, maybe they're on a committee for local events, maybe they're the meeting secretary, treasurer, etc. and when the meeting is over, they chat with their friends, maybe even go up to the new man/woman and offer them a word of wisdom... some hope, and they leave to continue on their daily activities.

Some people come to a certain group, that's their home group, they've done a set of steps, and either stay on the firing lines of helping new drunks get into the book and doing steps via sponsorship, or maybe they spend more time on the other legacies of the triangle at the district, local, or area level. Maybe they're specialized in bringing meetings and/or speakers into the local treatment centers, jails, hospitals, etc.

Some people are pure big book thumpers and spend more time doing steps and/or taking others through the steps and don't get involved with A.A. at the local, district, area, or regional level and concerns themselves not at all with what goes on with AAWS/GSO. They've got their damned Big Book and their group and God and a new drunk and what else could they need?

We've got 12 steps, 12 traditions, and 12 concepts with which to make this all happen. How is A.A. doing with money? Honestly? Is the 2 bucks I put into the basket being spent correctly? Are we giving too much to AAWS? Not enough? Are we giving too much to the district, area, local CSO? Too little? What happens when the basket doesn't bring enough? Do book sales pick up the slack? What about the Grapevine? Should we save it? Let it die? Have you ever read the thing? Not I. I hear it's good for those who can't make many meetings... sort of the meeting in print. I have no idea how it's received. Looking forward, should it be tossed, kept, revised? Can it be made to sustain itself... not lose money?

Now... with proper one-on-one sponsorship or group cooperation and/or participation and representation of groups at the various levels... can duties by properly delegated to where we can all work as a team to better apply our steps, traditions, concepts so that... going forward... we can start to address and amend problems that our detractors have been bringing to our attention?

What are some problems that we can all agree on?

• Better communication with and from our "friends"... the clergy, hospitals, legal system, counseling centers and treatment centers, etc. So basically PI/CPC work and ????
• Properly labeling specific groups/meetings at the CSO level so that it can be "advertised" as it is so those seeking a particular meeting can find what fits them best. For example, say someone wants to know where to go if they are tending towards a more secular meeting, a meeting that caters to newcomers, a meeting that demonstrates "singleness of purpose" and reads the blue card for closed meetings, a group that does steps on a yearly basis, a group that uses Christian prayers shamelessly, a group where women are not outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1, a meeting that does/does not sign court slips, a meeting that is inclusive to alcoholics/addicts/ alanons/ etc., but is still based on the A.A. book, etc. We know that no group follows the traditions perfectly. We do know that there are meetings that have no group conscience and are loose with the traditions but may cater to certain groups of people, like those from the treatment center, those who show up on their lunch break, those who are local to the meeting place, etc. Then there are groups who interpret the 12 traditions the way they see fit and they have a group conscience. They've decided to run the meeting a certain way and they are accountable to the group. They take care of their own. They decide how many meetings they're going to offer per week, what kind of coffee/tea they will serve, where the money goes, how the chair person will get picked, what will be discussed, read, etc. This info can be made available at the CSO level so professionals, counselors, services throughout the community can know where to send someone who might want to check out a certain kind of meeting.
• Accountability... how is the newcomer approached? What do we do with the suffering alcoholic who doesn't know what an alcoholic really is? What do we do with the suffering alcoholic who has other problems? What do we do with the suffering alcoholic who doesn't want to stop drinking yet... but must come to the meeting to get someone off their back... husband, wife, children, siblings, doctor, therapist, judge, cop, P.O. etc.? What do we do with the person who just wants to check out the meeting? What if they're alanon, but wound up in a closed meeting by mistake? Are we up to date on other meetings in our community? Can we direct them to the proper place.
• What do we do with people on medication? Honestly? Do some of us play doctor? Do we just not want to deal with/sponsor them? Are there people we can send them to that can better sponsor/guide them in the steps? Do they just need to be left alone and called on to share from where they are at... to vent? Should they be in a certain group and not others? Can we be educated on what to/what not to do with them?
• Can we set aside a group that puts everything on the wall... and doesn't get teased or bashed for being a "slogan"/MOTR group? A place where Meeting Makers Make It and Put the plug in the jug can reign free?
• Can we have an A.A. hotline to the local police station incase of abuse, fighting, chair throwing, etc.? Do some meetings/groups need such a thing?
• What about cussing? If you're in a church basement, do we need to put up a "No Cussing" sign? I don't know why this is, but the three strongest groups that I know of, the guys and gals cuss like sailors. But... nobody seems to be offended. There are other groups who put it on the wall or into their meeting format to refrain.
• Should there be citations awarded to the most "cultish" group on a monthly/yearly basis? Would some be offended if their group got labeled a cult? Prideful?

In my experience, there's enough fish in the sea to accommodate just about any/everybody in A.A. If we spent less time pointing our fingers at others and found the place we fit... instead of bashing each other, maybe our detractors would see us as... human.

Let's say... the anti/XAers don't think this is enough. This is outside of the realm of what A.A. does, but what would be the impact on A.A. if ... at the professional level... treatment centers, institutions, judicial systems, etc. were required to offer A.A./12 Step as only one option out of many? What would be the pros/cons of offering information and counsel to see where different types of people fit? Who is the best fit for the S.M.A.R.T. program, Harms Reduction methods, Rational Recovery, Life Ring, Peele, A.A., N.A., etc.? Also... for the anti/XAers, what if we did a group by group accountability for all methods showing what are success stats are? At least for the groups/meetings/programs that have no problem stating their sobriety date. Some don't view days sober as success vs drinking or "slipping" as a failure and this can be respected across the board. If total abstinence is the goal of that program, it can be categorized as such.

Would it screw the whole 12 Step process up if it wasn't totally voluntary? Would it help the quality of meetings/groups?

Team McGowdog

What say you?

Do XAers mean us no harm?

"One mom at a time"? That was a nice touch. I'm sure it went exactly like that. You had a member named Ben, with few teeth, he was a big book thumper, but he hurled all the slogans at you, drove a 10 speed. You say he had a really nice 10-speed? They make 21 speeds now... since for over 20 years. Are you saying his bike is as old as his teeth? Are you judging Ben's material accomplishments?

If you knew the antics of Ben so well, why did you take your mom there? Did you and your mom come up with the "Motherfuckers Anonymous" blast and discuss these sexual positions together? Did she help you carve out the "One mom at a time" plaque?

That's really sick shit you folks resort to. Let's see how many antiAAer claims you punched with that one vid, shall we?

• Ben was there with his "disciples"... his few teeth... and his 10 speed bicycle... in the fucking snow...
• Ben hurls MOTR Treatment Center slogans at you and you pull out that big old Brown Stamp collection...
• Betty... recovering crack whore with a nasty cough... but you sit right there next to her of course
• You somehow know she used dirty needles because don't all reformed crack whores brag about this?
• Oh, and she spits when she talks...
• And you have to hold hands with her because you are always stuck sitting next to her... during that Lord's Prayer...
• The Lord's Prayer is a "spiritual prayer", right?
• Ben determines what's spiritual and what's religious
• Momma's boy tells us how a Big Book Discussion meeting is just like a good ole Southern Baptist service!
• Betty knows the difference between God and Gawd! too.
• Betty told you to shut your mouth and listen... Sure she did! We believe ya!
• Ben threatened you with death and hurled a "Fake it till you make it blast!" Wow, the Quinella!
• Ben knows a lot about A.A. and he knows what you should and shouldn't do... a good sponsor has tons of advice.
• Momma's Boy is gonna go back to church, but not if Ben doesn't approve! After all, he's got that killer 10 Speed and few teeth!
• Momma's Boy asked Ben for permission to quit smoking... told to go try to quit jerking off instead
• Ole Betty has good advice too... meetings, meditation, and masterbation... sound advice from a Crack Whore who spits...
• Got them meds, because isn't every AAer dually diagnosed? Got them meds and need to have old Ben tell me to stop using them... he drives that killer 10 speed and only has 3 teeth... in the snow... he's gotta be my favorite mentor...
• Tried to kill yourself, Ben told you that you were selfish... and somehow wound up doing a Youtube vid! Wow! God is great, huh?
• Them alkies in A.A. are sure powerless... and also liars, cheats and thiefs...
• So there's momma's boy... with his mom... next to the spitting ex-Crack Whore... with Ben shouting slogans to you... and now you've got motherfucker talking about how he'd like to do his mom.
• Unusual meeting... but you brought mom along...
• Mom was shocked...
• Momma's boy was gonna be the hero and steer the meeting back to the proper topic... experiences related to alcohol... but old Ben told you to not take other people's inventories...
• Then Ben follows that up with a "Your best thinking got you here" blast
• Old Ben told you to sit down, shut up, and listen... and because you've known him for all of two weeks, you take his advice.
• Nice opportunity to pimp the "Small Book" and Agent Orange at http://www.orange-papers.org/, because... this guy has a lot of hope for drunks, right?
• Something clicked, then Momma's Boy realized that A.A. is a religious cult... or a religion when the courts make a judgement on it... but back to a cult when dealing with vulnerable drunks... because who doesn't like to fuck with vulnerable drunks?
• Old momma's boy... even though he only knew toothless 10-speed riding in the snow Ben for 14 meetings, ... has been to thousands of A.A. meetings... so Momma's Boy has 5 and a half years of meetings under his belt... but has not yet lost the desire to stop drinking, had been called a "chronic relapser"... was told that he didn't work the steps properly... from what appears to be a real step working group! Wow! Surprise.
• Momma's boy left the meeting, and everything fell into place for him! But he just had to go back and tell old Ben about his new success... of staying sober by staying away from A.A.
• Old Ben got pissed.
• Momma's Boy felt the need to take just a little more of toothless, 10-speed driving Ben's advice...
• Old momma's boy has been sober ever since he left A.A., but he's still thinking about how cold his saved seat must be by now...

Momma's Boy's 3 questions for you;

1. Is A.A. really working for you?
2. How well do you really know these people?
3. Are A.A. meetings really a safe place for me/us to be?

Now... A.A., a dangerous religious cult, posses itself as the "only" answer for your drinking problem.

___________________________________________________

So, do XAers/antiAAers mean us harm? Of course not! They're good people. They are truthful. They bring up good fair discussions and shed light on some of our problems and weaknesses without embellishment and exaggeration. They're fresh and never ever repeat themselves. They never exploit or take advantage of the plight of incest victims, people with chronic mental illnesses, manic depressives, schizophrenics like my brother who aren't alcoholics and don't go to A.A. meetings anyway, etc.

I'm starting to think that sobriety is like a rubber band. Poor innocent and motivated suffering wet alcoholics are just somehow stuck, get sent to A.A., since it's the only solution and they're forced to A.A. from the sock-puppet American Judicial system, and once they get to A.A., they suffer horid religious indoctrination, 13th stepping, mental anguish and punishment... but when they leave A.A., they go on to live healthy normal, useful, well-balanced, lucrative, sober, coffee-free, tobacco-free, sugar-free, fart-free, 10 speed-free, spit-free lives, and can go back onto their anti-depressant, manic-depressive, paranoid scizophrenic pills! But they don't cheat on their wives and they don't drink fucking coffee or smoke fucking cigarettes or say that Goddamned Lord's Prayer!

Sign me up!

___________________________________

ExposeAA, and his ilk... like to talk about how A.A.ers get off on the suffering of those who don't do the program as described, those who leave A.A., and especially XAers/antiAAers encountered on the web.

I say that's not true and just not even logical. We started off as wet drunks ourselves, remember? Now we're to feel guilty about achieving sobriety with the method presented to us?

1. A.A. is working well for me. It really is. I put a lot less into it timewise as many do. I do 1 or 2 meetings a week unless I have time and a reason to go to another one. I spend time with other A.A.s for leisure, program, church, spiritual retreats, weddings, funerals, for lunch/dinner, household projects/moving, etc.
2. How well do I know these people? Some I've known since 1994. That's before some of you little crumb snatchers have been pissing your pants.
3. Are A.A. meetings a safe place to be? Just what kind of protection do real alcoholics need? Are you vulnerable in meetings because you're young, female, experiencing other problems than alcoholism? IDK. There are usually many different kinds of meetings in a decent sized town. Do you want to go to a meeting in broad daylight at a well-attended meeting in some very public strip-mall somewhere? Somewhere that's not out in the boondocks in some church basement? Find what is comfortable. Bring your APBT and your mace. IDK. Never been an issue for me. I heard a guy in a forum discribe a meeting this way;

"There is one group where I live that is like a bar without the alcohol. They fight, yell, and basically use the room for everything but recovery. Its known as the shoebox. Filled with slippers, loafers, and sneakers. Some are sicker than others, and that becomes very apparent in some groups. "

So what I want to know is this; us pertetrator proAAers are to feel guilty about how we treat our poor abused suffering antiAAer/XAer counterparts... when we just know where they stand? Or where they sit, actually... on their asses on their comfy couches in their air-conditioned homes behind their nice cozy computers.

So much suffering going on here, it just breaks my fucking heart.

___________________________________________

So... we've been called out on our accountability by some avid anti/XAer. FTG to be exact. I saw her post in the mentalhelp site. She's ranting about her wonderful article about how AAers are only concerned with their own asses. That makes sense, right? Harm others and God will keep ya sober.

Here's her post and my hopefully allowed response to it. You get the inside scoop here. BTW, I left a response to exposeAA on that disturbing vid today. I have to be honest. It really did rattle me. It had me wondering for a sec... "What if A.A. really is a cult? How blind am I? Should I run from it now and not look back? Are we that harmful? Is there no God? Is there a God, but He hates me and the likes of A.A.?

So I confronted the vid with an open mind and... he's just fucking with us! Look at all the contradictions in that one vid? But... I manned up and asked him to answer me straght out; is it true or is it false? We'll see. If it's true, that meeting/group/individual needs to be dealt with.

_____________________________________________

please advise - FTG - Jun 6th 2010

PLEASE ADVISE!

http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2010/06/05/please-advise/

I shouldn’t have to pay taxes for schools. My kids are grown.Why should I call the cops? I don’t even know those people.Health Care Reform? I’m healthy and I don’t want to pay for anyone else’s problems!I don’t know why you say such hateful things about Father Bollier. He never touched me.Well, so what if he was getting bullied or whatever? He didn’t have to be there.Of course she got raped. Did you see what she was wearing?You should have seen this woman slapping her kid around in the store today! No, of course I didn’t. It’s none of my business.Climate change? Whatever. I don’t see anything. (Besides, I’ll be dead by the time California floats away.)We really shouldn’t publicize how many children have been killed or have died because of the Iraq war, because it will just erode our morale.I won’t speak to whether or not people get abused in AA. All I know is that it saved my life.Dear AA Members,What profound level of spiritual awakenedness allows you to respond to trenchant criticism of AA – and to the alarming evidence of its lack of accountability and oversight – by saying that the only thing that really matters is that it worked for you?

I’m only asking, because I’ve heard variations on this response so many times. It seems to be the last word

— the AA Trump Card.

I’ve been mulling this over for a couple of days, but just had to ask, finally, after reading this AAs comment on gratitude;

I live a fantastic life today………… If AA & 12steps can be construed as religious or you have a personal dislike of it…..

then I am sorry AA was or is a bad experience for you……….

Regardless of how others percieve AA…… all I know is it saves my ass and many of my dear fellowship friends……

Well, AAs, thanks in advance for your detailed responses,

ftg

_________________________________________

Now, my response; (Have to put it here because ... I can't respond to ftg due to censorship)

No ftg - McGowdog - June 7th, 2010

No FTG. What you and some of your minions have cooked up to be the "Soup du Jour" in XA and antiAA, the idea was stolen from someone else earlier in the week and regurgitated and pimped by you, as has been your XA/antiAA stomping ground.

We know where your website is. It's like Australia and old mens' underwear. You have gr8 support amongst your minions and you have a gr8 following. But we see what happens to those who are proAA. They are cast out as vicious, cultlike, zealots. At least here, both sides have a voice.

Now, I'd like to direct some of you to... not my website, I'm proAA and I'm nasty. Not a popular combination... but at least I show accountability... but I'd like to direct you to a youtube vid that some of you anti/XAers love; http://exposeaa.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/6027940-what-happens-at-aa-meetings-wmv

In this vid, a newcomer claims to take their own mom to a meeting and horrible things happen in this meeting. I say it's a lie and it's beyond embellished. It belittles people who are victims to incest and there are 32 other claims that do nothing but contradict each other. It's a bunch of lies. But some of you get a kick out of it.

A.A. is still one beggar trying to show another where there's bread. Our respect to your alternatives will become apparent just the moment we learn to brush aside the bs.

Anybody?

P.S. I'm sober today and I've not harmed anybody today. Can you say the same?

________________________________________

"all - - Jun 7th 2010
"P.S. I'm sober today and I've not harmed anybody today. Can you say the same?"
that question says it all.

Yes. It does say it all. It says you're a little ankle biter chihuahua dog without the balls to put your username down.

Where's your accountability and whom have you helped today? All the poor people who you've saved from A.A.? Your pitch is stale. Your goose is cooked. The jig is up.

What do you have to offer alcoholics besides A.A.? Pointing fingers at proAAers? Does that keep a drunk from taking the next drink? Honestly?

If you can stay sober on mind control, do it.

If you can stay sober on "Love thy Neighbor", do it.

Let me use your own claims against you; If a method works for a person to get and stay sober, how could it be wrong?

That somebody in A.A. would harm another person on this planet and have that work for them is just plain and absolute bullshit.

Go peddle your wares someplace else anti/XAer scumbags.

The Staying Power of A.A.

Tiburon88s responder OneOf gets Stinkin' Thinkin's Quote of the Day

Here's some responses to OneOf's response to Tiburon88;

Susan says
wow, that’s an unbelievable ego preaching surrendering ego there. I need a shower and some brain bleach now thanks for that.

tintop says
Susan, I thought the same thing.

violet says wtf????????

AndyM says
To the best of my knowledge there has never been any “lab test” to determine whether someone is suffering from depression and might benefit from antidepressants. And, of course, antidepressants are not painkillers as this person seems to think. But ignorance never stops these zealots trying to countermand informed medical advice.
The combination of the message that the rest of the world wouldn’t miss you if you killed yourself with a condemnation of accepting medical treatment for depression is pretty poisonous.

k says
Behind many alcoholics are life problems and mental illness, AAs answer to this is that you are egotistical in not being happy with your life.
A woman goes home and is being abused physically by her partner, she drinks to numb things.
AAs answer stop being egotistical; and selfish and accept the beatings, live life on life terms throw in the towel and accept defeat go home and get a good beating, then apoligise to him and apologise to everybody else. Don’t let your ego get in the way of wanting a better life otherwise god will throw relapse bolts at you.
Stop using your life as an excuse.
you dont drink because you are schizophrenic, bipolar, suffering PTSD (despite countless studies showing these types of people are more likely to suffer alcoholism). You drink because you are selfish and egotistical.
pray to god you scumbag

k says
maybe i am being wierd but instead of apoligising to everybody wouldn’t part sorting her situation out be to leaving her partner.
An hardcore AAs response. Thats a seperate issue, nothing to do with alcoholism and if you think it is then you are termianlly unique and doomed to alcohol hell. we are all the same, take the cotton wool out of your ears and put them in your mouth and go and apologise to some people. But take cotton wool out first then put it back until you realsie Bill W was a prophet and the Big book is the Bible

k says
Bill W this, bill W that. Did you know Billy boy W used to put his hat on before his underpants.
people with many years more sobriety than Billy W had at the time quote everything he says like hes some kind of saint

k says
There is millions of these brainwashed zealots. with their blind allegence to dr bobby and billy w. If they were born in a an arab country I have know doubt that the most hardcore would be potential suicde bombers

k says
Most apologise to any arabs, not because AA told me to too. lol. I meant if they were born in area where terrorists had power, I know thats not most of the Arab areas

Ben Franklin says
Is Pinkcuda the same Cuda that was banned from here?

humanspirit says
Absolutely despicable. And this nasty piece of supremely egotistical filth thinks he’s “increasing the amount of love in the universe” does he?

This is yet another person whose higher power has clearly decided not to restore to sanity.

speedy0314 says ma,
‘egoism’ and ‘egotism’ are similar but not directly synonymous.
the great & learned whatever-the-f**k-his/her-name is who authored the above acid-reflux-inducing post would do well to keep a dictionary handy when typing out those hectoring pearls of ‘love & service’.
hmmmm … .
on second thought, that dictionary would sit — never opened — collecting dust while the bhodisatva prattles on self-importantly about ’surrendering’.
jeez, has anyone even read freud these days? or calvin? or martin luther?
nope — bill wilson’s convoluted hybrid of the freudian ‘ego’ (as shat out through jung’s great mythology-engorged colon) mixed with a heavy dose of calvin’s inherently sinful self & martin luther’s “divine spark” will do just fine for these imbeciles.
the ‘ego’ is an abstraction, shitbird — a hypothetical construct. do the world a favor & surrender your internet connection.

surrender … but don’t giver yourself away,
speedy
Sofa King S.M.A.R.T.


tintop says
soberrecovery is an example of the “blind leading the blind”. There are good well intentioned people there; but, places like soberrecovery show the very worst of “peer led recovery”. “oneof” is an example of that sort of thing.

friendthegirl says
In your present state, you are useless as any part of a solution to your society’s problems. In fact, you add to the problems. So if you were to kill yourself, there would be no loss to the rest of us, wouild there? See the truth of that, Ti. It’s important.

That is a purely, shockingly hateful and abusive lie to tell another human being. I am sure this isn’t the first time he has verbally assaulted a vulnerable person in AA with this demented “truth.” Good god, he’s so adamant that his victim understand and really internalize just how worthless he is to everyone on earth. “It’s important.”

What a sick fuck.

Are there really AA members who are against seeing some oversight and accountability? How much longer will they think it’s such a hoot that the inmates are running the asylum?

tintop says k,
determine what is right, then go ahead. Forget those people, they are not worth it.
June 3, 2010, 5:25 am

JenX says WTF!? I have an account over there under a different name, "Twat Chops", and I occasionally ask questions and get horrible advice and responses from “well meaning 12 steppers”, but none have been as awful as the response above. June 3, 2010, 7:47 am

tintop says JenX, yes, that response was unusally bad.
It is all that they know. soberrecovery is very poor. June 3, 2010, 8:50 am


__________________________________________________________

I Think it's very nice you all are concerned about the recipient of this post, which is now about 6 months old. The thread has not been posted in since about the 25th of November, 2009.

I don't recall this poster, but they didn't seem to get reprimended for suggesting tiburon to go "kill himself". That seems a little odd to me. I didn't engage Tiburon88s posts too much because they were usually in the "Alcoholism" section and they were obvious flame-bating antiAA threads. I did go head to head with Bugsworth in there though. She'd come crawling out from under some rock to engage in her antiAA bashing whenever she got the chance. Huh Bugs? Huh Madeline?

This Tiburon88 character was funny though. This is the same guy who started a thread called, "Drinking mouthwash=How Dangerous? And, let's not forget, "I Hate A.A. = My Reasons. Let's see some Tib-isms, shall we?

• I believe I'm too sick for AA and had to be "escorted" out after my last meeting. -tiburon

• I don't think I meant it but I actually said that I wished everyone in this room would relapse.
• Yes I was sober too.
• 
  
  
  
  ">People don't take me seriously anymore & to tell the truth either do I.
• I received 3 broken ribs because I implied I had a weapon when I dialed 911. I accept that because they treated me okay & were just doing their jobs. I was overjoyed at that result because I knew I would receive pain killers.
• I admit I hate myself but I also have a strong dislike towards you. You probably hurt more newcomers in recovery than help them.
• Why don't you brag about how long you've been sober? I'm sure that will make you feel better than other folks around here. -tiburon
• Hey everyone I'm still here and usually drunk as a skunk. I hit a new low. I know, I know the advice will be: see a doctor.
• On a side note if I just drink mouthwash is that considered a relapse?
• I got some meds to help me detox and will be doing it soon.
• "10 years of Alcoholism and still going"
• I have to pick the right hospital. A few know me and label me as a "drug seeker" and will refuse to see me for any reason. I'm not even kidding about this. -tiburon
• Why should anyone care about me? I certainly don't give a crap about a single person in this world right now.
• I know when I was a kid my dream was always to be a alcoholic/drug addict. I also dreamed of become apart of AA. At least I have achieved my goals huh? Thanks everyone for reading.
• I obviously need more than AA and Sober Recovery offers.
• Have any of you stayed up for days thinking of ways to get rich with a "plan"? How about wandering the city with a police scanner and badge ready to bust drug dealers?
• Now give me the "tough AA" responses that I so desperately need and want.
• I believe it is the doctors job is to make my withdrawal easier. Otherwise, I will just continue to drink.
• Ativan works best for me although I'm on Klonopin right not.
• so he keeps me on the Klonopin. It helps some but I think I need an increase in dosage which I will ask next time.
• That's typical of American heath care though.
• I need to concentrate on my animosity towards ER doctors and nurses.
• When a patient asks for a certain drug that's what he/she should get.
• The consumer is always right. Why should I pay a $1500 hospital bill if I
  didn't even receive the correct services? -tiburon
• usually request 4mg of Ativan in an IV. I usually get it too because the docs don't want to get me riled up
• Once in a while though I'll get a doctor/nurse who refuse to give me what I need.
• I even threaten to sue them.
• Call me a baby or whatever but I admit I'm very demanding when I need to detox. -tiburon

__________________________________________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by suki44883
When you get serious about living sober, let us know.

Tiburon: When you dispense some helpful advice let me know.

Side note by McGowdog: HAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that was funny! suki is
all (((((((((((tiburon))))))))))))))))) mushy mushy kissy. Then after
that little remark, suki's thinking, "I'll cut your little raisins
off."

___________________________________________________

Now back to Tib...

• What opportunities? You know my life from reading a message board? The right to destroy your life isn't a luxury but sometimes destiny. -tiburon
• No AW I will bash the program from now on.

___________________________________________________

Pinkcuda

Keep up the good work!!! Your fortitude is absolutely stunning and you're an inspiration to all those that try to achieve sobriety.

You Pinkcuda are a perfect example of why I don't listen to AA folks.



You must enjoy relishing in other peoples misery. I believe u are a very unhappy individual and will put u on ignore. Please do the same with me. -tiburon