Penn & Teller on A.A.

I've been hooked on this show Penn & Teller : Bullshit.

We got 3 months of free Showtime and when I got the chance, I checked in to see if there was a new Nurse Jackie or Penn and Teller. I've not seen this Penn and Teller before and liked the show so well, I found myself renting back issues from Seasons 2 and 3. Season 1 was unavailable, so I haven't seen it yet.

Let's go to the 2nd Season disk 3. Guess what the topic was? That's right; 12 Step Programs.

So Penn and Teller took the advocates of 12 Step Programs- Bullshit! Well of course they would. Penn had Gary Busey represent the Pro-A.A. stance. Then this black guy (Skip Davis) represented the 12 Step Program from San Francisco, so gray-haired lady was the secular representative... this Shirley MacClaine looking lady..., the guy who founded "Back to Basics" (or so he claims... this Wally Patton fellow) was on the show, we heard representation from RR and SOS.

Penn and Teller went to New York to the supposed A.A. building and it was called Interchurch Center. Inside there is much mention of the word "GOD" so... A.A. MUST be a religion... according to Penn & Teller and some dude named Steve Mack... legal researcher. He was "forced" into 12 Step treatment when his employer gave him the ....

...

are you ready for this?


...

hang on...


...


it's coming up...


... given the CHOICE...

to try A.A. or have his fat faced ass fired!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ooooh, forced into A.A. huh? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wambulance for Steve Mack!

Any way... pan back to this black dude from San Francisco... Pro 12 Step btw... but what's the first claim he makes?

Alcoholism is a disease... Disease disease disease.

Then guess where P&T go with this? That's right! If it's a disease then you're a victim! No repsonsibility!

Sound familiar folks? That's right! Orange, Mike at Blame Denial, Stinkin' Thinkin', etc. I was born this way or I caught it on a toilet seat!

Dr Jeffry A. Shaler? Addiction is a choice. Fine. Alcoholism is NOT an addiction according to A.A.'s cofounders. No. That term came when Big Insurance took on alcoholism for co-pay in about 1991. Then all of a sudden, alcoholism is an addiction.

No, it's not. Alcoholics are NOT addicts. Addicts are addicts. I am an alcoholic, but I ain't an addict. I don't give a fuck what Dr. A says.

DD Strouse substance abuse professional... from San Francisco... That Shirley MacClaine looking lass... she was your A.A. basher.

Then we get a Harvard Psychologist, Lance Stotis? He says alcoholism is purely psychological... there's no gene linked to alcoholism. US Supreme Court said alcoholism is NOT a disease.

Gary Busey says addiction is a disease.

Penn and Teller point out that the A.A. movement started 2 years after Prohibition, where one boozer helps another boozer to go to God... and get sober. Penn says, "Evidently, God was too busy to give it to mankind before then."

Gee, where have I heard that lately? You guys like Penn and Teller too.

Hey. If you don't like A.A., fine. Don't go. Do something else.

Penn claims that leaning on another boozer when the urge strikes seems like a good idea but... "It turned into a cult".

Penn & Teller's one step program; Just stop fucking drinking.

I didn't like the representation for A.A. here. It became a spiritual vs personal choice battle.

Penn says A.A. wants it both ways... a god or a rock or a tree... can be your higher power. So... A.A. doesn't serve Godly people nor does it serve atheists.

There again, not the representation of A.A. that I found in that A.A. book. But what about the meetings? What about them? Have you been to my meeting lately? Come to Southern Colorado and if you're a real alcoholic, you're welcome to check out our meeting... and find out for yourself what you think.

I'm not going to your S.O.S. meeting or your RR meeting or your LR meeting or whatever. I don't need it. You may. But I've decided into my path and I'm glad I did.

If you did check out my meeting, I doubt you could leave there and say that we do not take responsibility or treat alcoholism as a disease or follow a religious dogma of any sort. We don't even worship the book. We don't talk about what the book or the steps say. We talk about our personal recent experience on those principles.

The recently deceased Paul Martin... of Chicago...God rest his soul... would be proud of our little group. He knew what A.A. was about.

He said this, "The alcoholic ego is like a baby... it has tremendous appetite on one end and no responsibility on the other"

Paul Martin of Chicago came to an A.A. convention in Pueblo Colorado several years ago... he laid down the word... that "A.A. is sufficient. If we real alcoholics work the A.A. program by doing and redoing those steps, the obsession of alcohol will be dispelled from our minds, we will become useful and whole and we will be getting what we need which we find is what we truly wanted all along."

Mike from Blame Denial deleted most of my posts!

Is A.A. a Cult?

Surprise surprise!

I must have said something... about his stupid and lame video. Sorry Mike, but it sucked weasle shit. Come on! Give us something at least vaguely entertaining.






















Here's what I said that he kept;

Wow, BlameTheNile! That video was just like an A.A. meeting. I'm SirMcGowington from the planet McGowdog. Or no. I'm The McGowdog from the planet Sirmcgowington.Don't know for sure. I'm confused. After wearing a light blue shirt for so long and listening to music that goes boop pee doop over and over again gets me disoriented. It makes me want to go home to my wife, kick her out, sell the kids, the house, the vehicles, give it all to A.A. and just snuff it.But hey! At least I'm sober! Have a blessed day!Thank you so much for what you do! A.A. is in real trouble now!








That guy who said he just woke up and decided not to ever ever drink again and that he choses to drink and chose to not drink to better his own life? That guy! We can all just do what he did! I'm sure he speaks for all of us! We are just weak! He is all powerful! He has an answer! That's what all us alcoholics and addicts really need, right? We need an answer! Not an "admission".

Here's part of what he said somewhere;

""mikeblamedenial, on November 12th, 2009 at 12:59 am Said:

Nonsense, anyone can be an AA member. Pedophiles, rapists, and other unsavory sorts are ordered into AA all the time by judges and parole authorities. The only distinction between “genuine” AA members and those I just mentioned exists only in your imagination. A member is anyone and everyone who parks their rear end in a meeting and says “I’m an alcoholic”, regardless of drinking, or criminal history. References aren’t checked, and the organization has no regulatory arm. Allahu akbar.""

Then my response that he tossed:



Mike, that's bullshit...Penn and Teller bullshit. I have family who work in parole, probation, law enforcement, etc. and they don't just stick pedophiles, rapists, and other unsavory types into A.A.

In fact, it's complete bullshit that the courts send anybody to A.A. They give their "client" the choice to giving sobriety a choice. They have this theory that a lot of crime is done under the influence of booze and drugs.

So guess what? When you commit certain crimes, you tear up your right-to-drink and right-to-drug ticket. Then the judge says, "So Clyde, Bubba or A.A."? They sometimes say, "Oh God! No! Send me to Bubba! Don't send me to the cult that is A.A.!"









Your video is dorky and so is your channel. At least do like Danny Boy and send us some Good Fellas.





















You dorks on here should go out and drink some booze. You would pass out on the bourbon fumes that I drank. You folks don't even know what drunk is. You all are like the baby robins of alcoholism; all mouth and no brains! Bauck!

A "non alcoholic" in A.A.'s experience is almost like mine!

Here is what an A.A. imposter says about A.A.;





After 13 years in AA I am no longer identifying as an alcoholic or going to as many meetings. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. I am going to one meeting a week and telling people that ask what I did not what I think.

I bought the programming when I was new and stayed sober in cult like fashion taking no responsibility for myself.

Today I stay sober knowing that…

I am not an alcoholic.

I am not powerless over alcohol.

I am not bodily and mentally different from my fellows.

I have done stupid things but am not insane.

I do not have to completely give myself to this simple program.

AA is a recovery venue where it is completely inappropriate to date.*

AA is sexually charged and it is inappropriate for men to sponsor women.*

Platitudes, euphemisms, jargon, rhymes, sayings, slogans, rhetoric, absolutes, old timer gurus, and group think, are all things of cults.

Sponsorship is dangerous. I do not know a single sponsor who has not taken on the role of life coach.*

I have learned much about human nature by going to meetings. Human instinct, breeding, networking, opportunism, control, etc. In Alanon I acquired tools that can be used as weapons or defense against would be steppers.*

As with all things, I now use AA in moderation. I do not drink because I appreciate my health today and do not want to trade a couple hours of intoxication for any clouded judgment or illness.

This is my 12th step.




First of all, if you're not identifying as an alcoholic, why waste the buck? Why go to A.A. at all? Are you such a misfit loser that you can't hang out at the gym or the mall? Well... whatever.

Next, you say something about "only requirement". That's wrong to begin with. You're looking at the short form wall scroll. Here's the 3rd Tradition;

"Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation."

That's your 3rd Tradtion. A requirement to stop drinking is evidently the Swiss Cheese requirement; too many holes.

Going to one meeting a week and telling people what I did and not what I think sounds fantastic. I totally agree with this and this is what I do too.

You bought the programming when you were new and stayed sober in cult-like fashion? Wow! My experience too. But something funny happened to me. I heard a guy speak at our MOTR meeting one night and he sounded different than the rest... like he really knew what he was talking about, what a real alcoholic drinks like, and what the real Program of Alcoholics Anonymous is really about. He was the first one to ask me what I drank like. He made me really look at how I really drank booze.

See... you might not even be an alcoholic and only think you are. You might be a hard drinker who can... control the amount once you start... or stay stopped on your own power when you really want/need to. There are many like this in A.A. now. No one ever really "qualified them" like Bob and Bill did way back when.

Some people are just lonely and have nothing better to do than to come to A.A. and let them hustle you in. Who would do this? Other real alcoholics? Heck no! The other people who have also been hustled in... like from treatment centers. You know? The whole "a drug is a drug is a drug" thing?

If you really don't need A.A. to get and stay sober, please stay away... please. You're killing people. You're embarking on a spiritual program that demands rigorous honesty based on a fundamental lie... you're not alcoholic. If you're not alcoholic, please go somewhere else; Good Will, the Salvation Army, Stinkin' Thinkin', work with lepers. Do something. Deliver the newspaper.

As far as taking responsibility for yourself, you should have done that 13 years ago. I took responsibility for myself and found a group of alcoholics who did nothing but fundamental and orthodox A.A. out of the book. They don't study or pontificate the book. We just do what it says and discuss our experience in it and are sober as a result. It's really that simple. Yet, you belong to a blog that dedicates it's waking hours to bash a free but spiritual program? Ummm... That is special! You... are special!

You are not alcoholic... you probably have no clue what a real alcoholic looks like. You probably couldn't tell the difference between a hard continuous drinker or a real alcoholic.

You are not powerless over alcohol... neither am I. I took the A.A. treatment and it worked. Alcohol is not my problem today. If I lie to you, it's because I'm a liar, not because I'm powerless or sick, or because I had too much to drink.

A.A. IS NOT NOR HAS IT EVER CLAIMED ALCOHOLISM TO BE AN ADDICTION OR A DISEASE. ALCOHOLICS ARE NOT DRUG ADDICTS, MORAL DEFECTS, OR SKID-ROW BUMS. ALCOHOLICS DO NOT HAVE WEAK WILLS. ALCOHOLICS ALWAYS WERE AND ALWAYS WILL BE... AT THE RATE OF ABOUT 10% OF THE HUMAN POPULATION.

You are not bodily and mentally different from your fellows? Probably not. You are probably bodily and mentally different from real alcoholics though. So why continue to bother with them? Are you an unrecovered alanon?

Oh! Alanon Joke Alert: Hear about the new alanon doll? You throw it against the wall and it says, "I still love you."*

Sorry, that was bad. I will follow that up with another Alanon Joke; How many alanons does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None. They just detach and let it screw itself. =)

I have done stupid things but am not insane? Me neither. But when I have reached for a bottle of bourbon knowing what it once did to me and do it as if there is nothing wrong with this picture is pure and complete insanity. If you don't believe that, you don't know what an alcoholic is. You should read Melody Beattie. You're in the wrong fellowship.

I do not have to give myself to this simple program? No you don't. Sorry to be rude, but get lost, ok?

A.A. is a recovery venue where it is completely innapropriate to date? That's probably true and good advice, but do me a favor. Save your breath. You tell some sick woman to not spread her legs for any reason and that's the first thing she will do to spite your ass. She's probably bouncing up and down on your boyfriend, your husband, your brother, your dad, your son, and looking at your dog. Who are you to tell people who to date? God?*

A.A.... men should not sponsor women? True that. If I sponsored a woman, my wife would get jealous. That wouldn't work for me. I'm way too good looking anyway. And um... get this; I don't believe in sponsorship. I did a set of steps and have been sponsor free ever since. It's your responsibility to get a sponsor if you must and to choose who will sponsor you. If you do get a sponsor, all they should do is sit you down and talk about their own drinking and listen to you talk about your own drinking and see if you identify with a real alcoholic and whether you fit in or not. If you're not a real alcoholic, leave. If you are, do the 12 steps and then go try to help the new drunk. THAT'S IT! NO TIME FOR FUCKING, SPREADING YOUR LEGS OR BEING A VICTIM! Wow! You make a big deal out of this. If women spread their legs, they need to take responsibility for their own actions and quit bitching to the world about how they're a victim! Why? Because if they don't get screwed in A.A., they'll get screwed a block or two away! Good luck with that.*

Slogans and all that other garbage are a cult? Agreed. Either that or laziness. This is what I call MOTR (Middle of the Road) and it's not A.A. It's B.B. or treatment center garbage. Don't blame A.A. for this. Blame your own closed mindes for this garbage.

Sponsorship is dangerous... life coach? Yeah. I agree. Do a set of steps and become sponsor free. I belong to a group that doesn't believe in it. But we will gladly sit a person down and help them find out if they belong in A.A. or not, if they want to quit drinking for good and all, and if they are willing to do some work out of the book A.A. If not, we send them away.*

You learned about human nature and alanonism? Then you learned this; "He took a drink and I felt better." If your parents or siblings are alcoholic, get growed up and run away. If your spouse is alcoholic, dump them and get a normie. If you attract alcoholics to yourself and find yourself always a victim, that's your problem. You can get help for that in alanon. But even still, you think the A.A. program is full of sick people who don't do steps? What makes you think Alanot is any better?*

This is your 12 Step? You're terminally unique, just like everybody else. You're not an alcoholic. Please stop going to A.A. and 12-Stepping.

* Disclaimer; I am merely a recovered alcoholic here. I have never been abused sexually and rarely any other way and am not an expert against such abuse nor am I insensitive to it. It's merely not my experience. If you need counseling or help for this, get professional help. The only thing I would ever bring to A.A. is to find someone who had my tragic experience and who has gotten free from it themselves. And again, A.A. is not the end-all be-all of life. It's for drunks.

Here's what A.A. says about sex on pages 68, 69, and 70;

Now about sex... Then we have the voices who cry for sex and more sex; who bewail the institution of marriage; who think that most of the troubles of the race are traceable to sex causes... We want to stay out of this controversy. We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct. We all have sex problems. We'd hardly be human if we didn't. What can we do about them?

...

We review our own sex conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.

In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test-was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed.

God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel with other persons is often desireable, but we let God be the final judge We realize that some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical thinking or advice...

...

That's what the book says about sex and I'm proud to be a part of this Program. There's nothing in A.A. that would lead anybody to harm.

Blaming A.A. for any kind of harm is like Oprah blaming her fork for her weight. It's like trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents.

Pot Smoker bashing A.A.

Mar 16, 2009 -- 6:31PM, Wmdkitty wrote:

There's nothing TO "understand" about "alcoholics" -- you're not "sick" or "diseased", you simply CHOOSE to drink to excess.

Oct 8, 2009 -- 2:48AM, Mcgowdog wrote:

We aren't sick or diseased. I agree.
But... "Most alcoholics... for reasons yet obscure... have lost the power of choice in drink."

That's me. You must be one of the "few", huh kitty cat?

You're not even an alcoholic, are you?

If you are, you're what we real alcoholics call a "baby robin type alcoholic"... all mouth and no brains.


Mar 16, 2009 -- 7:42PM, cherubino wrote:

Good point, and assuming it's true, it follows logically that those who say "AA or the highway" are mistaken and quite possibly deluded. But even as such, they're still just private citizens who have opinions, like political party members and sports fans. They have no more civil or legal authority to enforce their views on the general public than does any other nut who holds forth from a soapbox.

AA is a private, civilian, voluntary organization doing busness in a free society under the protection of the First Amendment. It's not allied with any city, state, or federal law enforcement agency, nor with any correctional bureaucracy. Why not simply ignore them and walk away, just as you would from any other street corner crackpot or assembly thereof?

McGowdog:
Very nicely put. Some of you folks in here are pretty smart and pretty mature. It's too bad I came late. Doesn't look like much action in here anymore.

Mar 16, 2009 -- 8:34PM, Wmdkitty wrote:

And yet judges FORCE people into the program, and the program itself actively discourages members from associating with ANYONE who isn't in the program, discourages free thought (as evidenced by the 12-Step zombies who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves and others, and continue to prance about like AA is the BEST. THING. EVAR.) and it DAMAGES THE PARTICIPANTS by utterly destroying their minds, their self-esteem, and sense of self-worth. "You're an ADDICT. You're HOPELESS. You're nothing but a FAILURE. You NEED us, we're the ONLY ONES who understand, and we LOVE you!" It's the same thing abusers do to their victims.

McGowdog:
Waa! I almost forget we're talking about the poor poor victim alcoholic here. Why is the alcoholic in front of a judge? Because they chugged too many beers without swallowing? Because they dropped the beer bong? Or did they break the LAW? Judges don't force alcoholics to do anything. They give them an alternative; Bubba or A.A. meeting.

But once they get to A.A., the poor victim alky gets snuggies and swirlys? They're forced to pay a buck and buy a 7 dollar book and drink bad coffee.

Oh, the poor victims! A.A. is so rough!


Sep 8, 2009 -- 2:31PM, Wmdkitty wrote:

AA practices indoctrination, you are told that it is the only way, that "if you have one drink, you will die", and other such lies.

When, in truth, one drink won't kill you -- your lack of self-control, should you CHOOSE to have more than one, on the other hand, will.

When there are other recovery programs with better success rates, and no "spiritual program".
AA is a RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED program, a friggin' cult, and has a success rate of 5%, same as it is for people who quit on their own. In fact, I'd wager that people who quit on their own are better off, because they are not told to cut any (and all) ties to their "former" life, and have a real support system of family and friends to lean on.

What really burns me, though, is the blatant disregard for the First Amendment, shown when judges sentence a criminal to AA meetings -- the judge is saying, "attend this religious program, or go to jail." It's actually ILLEGAL to do that.

McGowdog:

A.A. practices no such doctrine. A.A. does not nor did it ever supply the desire to stop drinking to the prospect.

You can go drink if you want to. If you're not an alky or are one and don't want to stop drinking, don't go to A.A. and don't break the law.

It's just that simple. Why would you go to A.A. to drink booze? That's sort of like going to an abortion clinic to set up a lemans class, isn't it? That's just perverted.

Religious program, 5%, cult? Go back to Stinkin' Thinkin', you baby robin... all mouth and no brain 3 beer drinker.

What do people do in A.A.?

If I go to a meeting and drink some coffee, share how things went that day or what I'm going through, help put chairs away and then go home, have I participated in the program of A.A.? People don't actually recover on the inside by doing these things do they?



What does it mean to get out of the self with regard to the program?



Take on a sponsee?



Talk to a sponsor?



I know there comes a point where issues have to be hashed out, and to do this one has to be serious about their own recovery, no one will do this for you. Is this what is meant when people say "it's all in the steps."



If self is the primary issue for recovery, what does one actually do to be unselfish? Is one perpetually thinking of others, or is this another one of those epiphanies that sneaks up from out of nowhere, where the ultimate goal is to achieve a state of mind that nutures healthy ego without reverting back to alcohol?



Can anyone actually provide any concrete examples of the day in the life of A.A. in action?



What do people do in A.A.?








This is a nice quote here. It's a real question that would make a nice topic.



I belong to a group that does steps yearly. We have a meeting that meets once per week. That's it. We meet for lunch on Friday when we can. Since we do steps yearly, we really don't have or need sponsors.



Once you've been through a set of steps, you should be sponsor-free. Why be a burden to some poor guy the rest of his life? Where should your reliance be anyway? In your sponsor? Or in God? Who's responsible for your sobriety? You're sponsor? Or you? I don't understand why some people like to be under somebody elses thumb.

Also, if you come to our group, you'd need to be an alcoholic who wants to quit for good and all. Nobody else. Just alkies. We also don't believe in dual problems. I've got a dual problem. I've got big kahunas. And they hurt a lot. But we don't talk about my big kahunas. If you have dual problems, then once the heat gets to hot on one problem, they just jump to the other problem. Either you're alky or you're not. Get in or get out.



So we have a chair picker. They pick the chair person for that next week's meeting. The chair person comes with a topic, reads a bit out of the book, shares his/her recent experience with the step, then calls on others to share... their current experience with the step/topic. We have a 3 minute meditation before we open the topic to the group. When we're done with discussion, we have 30 minutes of crossfire. There, anybody can ask anybody a question about their experience on the topic. We conclude the meeting with the Lord's Prayer.



That's all we do. We write 3 column inventories, 5th step it with another drunk, do 6, 7, and 8 and make all our amends, then do 10, 11, and 12. We start on Sept 1st and and are finished with our amends by Thanksgiving. that gives us the other 9 months of the year to do 10, 11, and 12.



We don't give a darn about A.A. at the regional, national, or world level. Y'all can drink. We ain't drinkin' no matter what. I got my book and if I see a new drunk I'll pitch him/her if I can.

Do you have a problem with booze?
Do you want to quit for good and all?


If the answers are "Yes" and "Yes", and the attitude is contrite and sincere, we'll work with you. Otherwise, we'll send you to one of those more merciful groups.



How does that saying go? Let us love you till you kill yourself? A.A. is not sentimental. Why? Because of booze.



If you don't care about your sobriety, we can't care. It's a spiritual law. If you do care, we have to care.



A.A. works. It works everytime. A.A. is a set of swingset instructions. You attach A to B and B to C etc. You get a swingset. A.A. is to be experienced. Not debated, studied, guided, etc.

Roger Ebert Article

Well I've been hearing about this from Stinkin' Thinkin', and now a recovery site. So I thought I'd check it out.

I read the blog or whatever that is and don't know what I think about the guy yet. I'd like him to qualify for one thing. I'm not sure he's an alcoholic yet. I don't identify with his story and could care less about his 30 years of continuous sobriety. I want to know if he has to do what I do to stay spiritually fit. What's his experience with the steps? That's all I care about.

As Stinkin' Thinkin' rightly points out, he seems to be an A.A. appologist. A.A. needs no appology, but we'll look into a bit of what he says. Evidently, he has spent some time doing something. We'll try to find out what that is and see if it measures up with my experience in the steps. He says words like disease and addiction and "plug in the jug", which I hate. It's MOTR BS. Wedge. He's full of shit so I can't here him. But we'll see.

I tried to comment on one of the comments and his site wouldn't accept it, so I'll start my comments here;


Hey Sharon, about that 5th comment from 10:34 am on the 25th of August;

It's nice that your brother got sober on Rational Recovery. Whatever works. Sure! If rational thought works for you, do it!

I go to meetings here and there besides my homegroup. My homegroup is closed A.A. and it's just for alcoholics who submit to the steps as they are in the book and we are a group that discusses our experience and that's about it. We don't study the book. We just do it and discuss our current experience on it and we question each other about stuff. It's hard core, if you will.
But I go to these other meetings from time to time and there's this counselor from the local treatment center that's sort of the spiritual guru of this place. He brings his clients to this one meeting on Monday evenings. I ask him about Life Ring, Rational Recovery, SMART, SP, and I wonder if he knows about them. He says he's checked them out and that they may be fine for the hard drinker or hard drug user, but they don't work for the real alcoholic or the real addict. Didn't the founder drink again? Oh, well in that program, they don't talk about that stuff, right? Don't want to label anybody here, right? slipper-ER!!!!!!! Sorry.

Then I asked him about secular recoveries. He said he checked that out too. Evidently, he says, all they do in there is sit around and 8!#ch about A.A.

Response to the blatherings of missinformed message board posters with regards to Alcoholism

Here's my Frank-induced rant in response to a bunch of MOTR's with regards to recovery. A.A. came up and I heard a bunch of garbage of what A.A. is and what it's not. Here's what my lineage and positive recovery experience has to say about the Program;

If you can get and stay sober on rational thought, do it.

If you can get and stay sober on pleasant thoughts, do it.

If you can get and stay sober on Love Thy Neighbor, by all means, do it.

If you can get and stay sober by letting your favorite guru sprinkle magic dust on you, do it.

But if that stuff doesn't work for you, you might give A.A. a try. The real A.A. is the title of a book. This is the program of action that leads you to an experience and/or personal relationship with God. The places where people meet is called an A.A. meeting or group. This is the fellowship and there's no telling what's going on at any given one across this planet.

There's a myth in A.A. that alcoholics can go to A.A. and get and stay sober. This simply is not true. Most alcoholics in A.A. do not do the work (all 12 steps), they go back out and drink, and they die.

But I have a book that says I can submit my will to God, do a few simple things, take a certain attitude (sweep away prejudice, get honest, and search dilligently within myself), and God will do for me what I cannot do for myself. God will change my mind to where I will not want to drink. The drink problem, aka booze, will no longer be my problem. But I'm asked to give away what was freely given to me and to maintain my spiritual fitness. There are suggestions to prayer and meditation in there. Real sandbox kindergarden stuff. I'm also encouraged to go back to any religions convictions that I may have had prior. "Being quick to see where religious people are right" is encouraged. Dr Bob talks about his opinion on the need for God... not HP!

A.A. is not a philosophy. It's not a dogma. It's not a cult. It's not a theology. A.A. is a set of instuctions. You attach Part A to Part B...etc. It's like a set of swingset instructions. You do certain things, you'll get a certain result. A.A. works. It works every time. But you have to do something. Most people think spirituality is like rain and it will just fall on you. "The spiritual life is not a theory." It's not to be studied or brainstormed. It's like any skill. You don't just become a doctor or a welder. You've got to practice your trade. Spirituality is like a shovel. It takes sweat and callouses and practice.

You can go to a rehab or to a doctor if you're coming down off of booze... if you're "befogged" or "jittery". Then you can commence some recovery program.

You can also go to a treatment center. Go spend $15,000 for 14 day inpatient to have a bunch of "professional" counselors tell you to go to A.A.

But A.A. can ask no money for 12 Step work. Why? Because A.A. is a spiritual program. "...money and spirituality don't mix." pg 166 12x12.

"Almost no recovery from alcoholism has ever been brought about by the world's best professionals, whether medical or religious."

But hey, it's your money.

My group meets once a week. It's closed to alcoholics. That's it. Only alcoholics. We're not interested in drugs at all. We don't have a disease and we're not addicted to alcohol. Addiction is another thing. We don't believe in dual problems either. Why? Because when the heat gets too great, they can just jump to the other problem. Either you're an alcoholic or you're not. We do NOT call alcoholism a disease. One meeting a week and lunch on Friday and anything after that is icing on the cake. We don't give out chips, hugs, read from anything but the 164 of the Big Book and the 12 Traditions Long Form. We don't read A.A. pamphlets, the Grapevine, the 12 and 12, as Bill Sees It, the Daily Reflections, nor the stories in the back except for Dr Bob's Nightmare. We have our own preamble. It's just orthodox and fundamental A.A. Drinking is NOT acceptable in our group. If you're not willing to do steps yearly and quit booze for good and all... we say go back and drink somewhere else... or go to one of those more merciful groups. There's no chanting in our group. No slogans, no chip chick and no chip chico. If you have a yearly birthday, you get cake and you get to chair the meeting. You'd better bring a real A.A. topic about the steps too, because we ain't going to talk about how wonderful you are. If you drink in our group, we don't say, "Welcome back! Keep coming back!" We say, sit down, tell us what happened and let's see what you missed. If you drink, you willfully drink. If you're sick, you're willfully sick. It's not a mystery.

I could give two fiddlers farts about AAWS. It can go broke for all I care. The Presidents of A.A. are each individual in each group. It's an upside down fellowship and because it's free, y'all can't tell us to do Jack!