Thursday, December 30, 2010

A bumped up controversial topic from SR

Days Inn sucks so much ass.

Days Inn knows how to make you feel at home.

This is the ambience you get when you tell your brother-er boss that you're in recovery and like to stay somewhere nice when on the road.

Typical drive in the ATL

What's my bro doing on here? Wow.

Closed A.A. meeting and NA's?????

A newbie from SR posted this in a recently bumped up 2 year old thread that some of you's were a part of;

First, I would preface this by saying the Big Book was written in the 1940's, before most of the drugs being abused today were available. Second, professional drug/alcohol counselors recommend AA to everyone. Do you honestly believe these traditions/ if written today/ would exclude drug addicts? My history with drugs is identical to those of alcohol addicts. My AA meetings are available at the times I need and NA meetings are in bad parts of town and Im not willing to put myself at risk for exposure to potential drug dealers. This discussion has really irritated me as these people are all seeking the same solution and following the same principles. Someone confronted me at a meeting recently and was basically thrown out of the meeting because of everyone's comments about alcohol and drugs all being the same. AA is AA is AA whatever! keep your mouth shut if you approach someone in recovery. Do you really want to jeopardize someone who is TRYING and SEEKING a solution??? All you are doing is taking away the solution and creating a problem, possibly instigating a relapse. Grow up!

Wow!  Tell it like it is, SR newbie!

My take... I go to open meetings as well as closed meetings because there are good folks in both.  I know some addicts who have a good recovery program and they've had to battle the hardlined A.A.ers who remind them of the traditions.  I also know some addicts who have finally got off of their high-horse and supported their own damned N.A. meetings rather than try and turn an A.A. meeting into an Anda meeting.

When someone new comes into our (my main group) A.A. closed meeting, we ask why you are there.  One of the questions we ask you is, "Are you looking for an A.A. meeting?"  We also ask you whether you're an alcoholic or not?  Do you know what an alcoholic is?  Do you have a problem with booze?"  ... and this one is like... my fav!  "Do you want to do something about it?"  If you're confused about this or will not submit to the admission that you're an alcoholic, then maybe you're not and you're free to go.  We don't need you and we've got nothing for you.  So, in other words, "See ya!"  "Later gator!"

But at these open meetings, some folks just slobber all over and "cater" to the addict andas and go so far as to say, "We don't discriminate against the addict here.  All are equally welcome."  This is the product of the "Treatment Center" alumni in my hometown.  Of this, I am not proud.  I've heard that those who have come before me have talked to these folks and tried to change their group conscience and they just fight.  They refuse to see it any other way.  "A drug is a drug is a drug" is their motto.

I don't go to these N.A. meetings.  I don't because I'm not an addict, I can't help them and they can't help me.  But I respect their respective recovery.  I didn't make the rules.  Oh, how dare I say rules!  Traditions, whatever the hell you want to call them.  In my closed A.A. meeting, if you're not alcoholic and/or not willing to identify as "My name is ______ and I'm an alcoholic", you'll be asked to leave.  None of this anda or "... and I'm sober in recovery"... shit.  This is not Life Ring.  But... how do I feel when a new person comes to our group and isn't sure if they're alcoholic or not or if they identify as addict?  I'm uncomfortable as hell for them because I don't like them being asked to leave... or telling them that this is a closed A.A. meeting and to "Ixsnay on the addict-pay alk-tay...!"  How about, "My name is .... and I have a desire to stop drinking."  Nope.  GTFO!  You're alkie or your not.  What's better is to say, "My name is _________ and I'm here to find out if I'm alcoholic or not." 

"My name is _________ and I'm here to find out if I'm alcoholic or not."  Is this not the perfect introduction for the new person?  They don't know what an alcoholic is really... but some think they do.  The A.A. book talks in vast detail about the line between the hard drinker and the real alcoholic.  One thing I learned about me and this... topic; I lied to myself about my own identification.  This may sound pathetic, but I sort of let others label me as alcoholic or just assumed that I was an alcoholic because I couldn't handle my booze and it always got me hurt and/or in trouble.  This sounds like a good enough definition to some.  Certainly good enough for some counselors that have worked with me over the years.

But until someone set me down and asked me what I drank like... how it was with ME and booze, there was no movement.  I was just no where near "conceding to my inner most self".

Being a real alcoholic eludes so many.  I can see it.  I am partly ashamed that it eluded me for so long... that I really am an alcoholic and that I really really cannot just don't drink.  The anti/XAers hate us for this separation.  Not being able to "Just don't drink, no matter what" or "Just keep coming back, no matter what", I thought that I was just an A.A. fuck-up.  In a way this is true.  But the fact is that I'm just not like those others who don't identify.  This is as true for MOTRers as it is for addicts vs alcoholics.

I did drugs and I ain't an addict.  Like that or not.  This pisses some folks off.  It really does.  Don't believe me?  Go read that bumped up thread at SR and you'll see.  It pisses them off so much that they add things to their preamble like "We don't discriminate against the addict here."  Well guess what, treatment center alumni muther-fucker?  We don't either!

Oops.  Sorry about that.  Just had to get that off my chest.  I do love my fellow addicts in recovery though.  I'd like to start a non-A.A. spiritual 11th step meeting where we can all get together and just read the Emmitt Fox- Sermon on the Mount book or something.  Maybe some David R. Hawkins.  But then we'll probably start talking about steps and how we do them and that would be that.


Update from SR newbie;

I do see open meetings but at lunch I have one aa place to go to (closed) and at 5pm I have another aa close to home (closed) The open ones are at 8pm and I have 2 newborns and a 4 year old. This is the only way for me to attend regularly. The NA meetings are few and far between in Oklahoma City and I have always preferred AA. What's the problem here? Are the "traditions" which were written in 1940's so important that you would ask an addict to leave? This entire thread has insulted me. I read the Big Book not NA book, I do not want to go to NA meetings even the few available as they are bad parts of town and could compromise my sobriety. I would just ask that someone explain to me how they can validate this argument on some level that would make sense because as far as I can tell, there is no argument!!
Wow!  Are you serious?  You want A.A. to cow down and cater to you?  Save the drama for yo mamma.  Take that anger and attitude and shove all that up your ass.

To think that A.A. is being accused of being a cult.  Go over to Stinkin' Thinkin' and Orange Papers and develop a hatred for A.A. and leave it the fuck alone.  You sound like a ripe prick so... I pity the folks who have to put up with you.  Maybe you can go get some booze and drink the shit.  Become a real alcoholic and shut the fuck up about the drugs.  Or... you can grow some balls, grab that NA book and refuse to fail.  Make it work for you and maybe you'll even help a fellow addict. 

Drugs and booze are different.  Booze is food and drugs are not.  They are different, despite what you say and think.

Of all the MOTRs and Andas I've seen come down the pike, you deserve no compassion.  You are giving CarolD and Dee a headache and they cannot express their true disappointment in you.  You are posting in the 12 Step Alcoholism thread.

What you really are is a troll from Stinkin' Thinkin'.  So... knowing that, I think it's kind of funny.  Those folks over there are not being fooled by you in the least.  I can tell that Tomvlle and Keith and some others are on you like stink on shit.

Happy New Year now!


  1. "First, I would preface this by saying the Big Book was written in the 1940's, before most of the drugs being abused today were available."

    What? Are you fucking serious? You think that cocaine hit the States when Tony Fucking Montana, a political refuge... came off the boat from Cuba in 1981? You fucking tard! Do you think heroin and morphine weren't a problem at the turn of the century? Did cocaine and valium not get abused by Sigmund Freud himself?

    You mean to tell me that cannabis hasn't been discussed as a mind-altering substance since 2000 B.C. and beyond? What about opium? Ever read The Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck?

    No. Back in the 40s, we didn't even have Camaros, Nike shoes, hookers and titty bars or drug dealers! No disco-techs either. That's when cocaine was invented, huh? Rock the Boat.. don't tip the boat ovah... because we gots kilos to delivah!

    Too funny. I need to stay off of SR.

    It's snowing here!

    What's up Karl?

  2. It's snowing here too. Of course most people don't know that I can see your house if I climb the tree out in my back yard. So I'm just sitting here in the middle of nowhere wondering if I can make out to the road in the morning. I'll keep you posted.

    So here's my take. Uhmm. It's what I like to think as "The Correct Take" but humility won't allow me to make a deliberate statement insinuating that I'm correct.
    Alcoholics Anonymous is just that. Hence the word "Alcoholic" in the title. But what do I know?
    Meetings of "Alcoholics Anonymous" are for "Alcoholics". Be it open or closed.
    Little known fact among our circles is that if a meeting is open, it's still an "Alcoholics Anonymous" meeting. For Alcoholics. Somewhere along the line a misconception was formed that says an open meeting is for anyone with a desire to quit anything. In fact just a couple months ago we had an "Addicted Gambler" walk in.
    What can I do? While I can fully understand the mental obsession and dare I say "Phenomenon of uhhh, whatever to gamble, I simply can't relate to anything of the sort regardless of how much I dig through my past. Why should anything be different when an addict comes to me looking for help quitting? I don't think I've really ever done drugs. Let alone get "Addicted" to them. Again. I'm of no help whatsoever.
    Another misconception lies in the belief that Alcoholics Anonymous consists of "meetings" This get's me on my soap box faster than Andas in an AA meeting. Alcoholics Anonymous is a 12 step program of recovery directing us towards a relationship with God. That's it. That's the end of the discussion.
    Meetings on the other hand are a place to go and bullshit with your friends. With a few exceptions of course. I commend those that conduct meetings in a way that respects and defends tradition.
    Speaking of "Traditions" I would step into your next meeting and ask how many of the traditions mention "Meetings".
    Don't look. I'll answer it here.
    A). None of them.

    The word is "Group" and it's used over and over.
    People gathered with a common bond in this case
    A common problem with a common solution.

    On the subject of "A common solution"
    How many Addicts actually take all 12 steps as they are written? OK I'll let up a little and allow for the substitution of the word "Alcohol" with "drugs". and the answer is still none.

    So in short if NA meetings are fucked up it doesn't mean NA is fucked up and doesn't work.
    NA is still a 12 step program of recovery that allows you to develop a relationship with God. And meetings are still places to go and bullshit with your friends.

  3. Good to see ya Karl! I think I'll drop a few photos of my newly painted Chrysler in case I haven't shown them yet. Whatdoyathink? I know it's no "Cuda", but it's what I can afford.

  4. Not snowing here. Just clear and cold. The sun is shining and I like that.

    As much I'd like to, I can't see that SR thread. I remember it, or several ones like it.

    I think I'll go to a local MOTR noon meeting. Maybe that'll give me something to bitch about.

  5. Oh come on now.

    If the anti/XAers taught me but one thing... it would be "There ain't no wrong way to get/stay sober."

    So what if the MOTR oldtimer in the corner can praise "Keep Coming Back" and "Don't drink, no matter what!" If the meeting is doing them some good, so be it.

    There will eventually be the new guy with the red face and the shaking hands come in there with that ... stare. He/she will hear you share your experience and get that glimmer of confusion... that spark from hearing a piece of truth and perhaps uncomfort... and may even come talk to you in the near future.

    Or, you may not even get called on to share at all and you can hold hands with the group and chant those ridiculous words... Keep coming back! It works if you work it and it sucks if you don't... because you're worth it... or however that goes.

    Happy New Year!

  6. Nice car Patrick. I forgot about the push button transmission. Looks like it's ready for a road trip. Too bad the roads aren't ready.
    So here on this end I actually did make it out to the road this morning. Things didn't go so well on the way home. I was about a hundred yards down the driveway and thought I could plow through a snow drift. I guess I thought wrong. I had to walk the remaining half mile, warm up, grab a shovel and dig myself out.
    I did take the liberty of posting over there on the thread in discussion. I probably won't make any friends with that post but I guess I aint in it for friends. The truth has a tendency to piss people off a little. It, however, is still the truth. I look forward to a response.

  7. BTW! I highly recommend you go buy, rent, steal or whatever a copy of "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World. It has a Cult Following amongst the Mopar Circles. It came out in 63 and it's a riot.
    The Movie had Chrysler as a sponsor and needless to say there's nothing but 60-63 Chrysler products. Oh! And an "All Star Cast"

  8. One of my dad and I's favorite movies.

    The Big W!

  9. Nice to see you've simmered down Patrick, must of been a resolution.LOL

    If this guy is not a troll, he's another selfish to the core addict who thinks the world revolves around him, fuck the traditions, fuck singleness of purpose, etc....You know the type. Does what they want when they want how they want, contemporary AA will love him into the grave. Sorry bastard has no idea what he is dealing with or up against. Keith and the few good AA's on SR will be drowned out in a sea of bullshit and confusion ( I do miss the old days of kicking ass and taking names on that site with you guys) This area is crawling with bad NA meetings that pretend to be and call themselves AA meetings. I did drugs (lots of them) I could stop when given a sufficient reason. I am not a drug addict, therefore I have no fucking business trying to help someone who I can't connect and identify with. Why is this such a profoundly difficult concept for folks to grasp?

    I go to a few closed meetings, one I am a member of and helped start a while back, at group conscience about a year ago I introduced the idea that we include in our format, to request that you introduce as an alcoholic only, if you are not sure you are alcoholic ask one of us. After an informed group conscious was arrived upon and the minority point of view heard, the collective conscience changed it, the minority opinion was intersting to sit with, same argument as the newbie from SR.

    I'll through this out there for discussion, should we lighten up? Should we modify? Or should we learn from the Washingtonians and everything else our history and literature has taught us. I don't think we should change a thing, but I'd like to hear what you guys think.

  10. Good to hear from you Rob, and Happy New Year.

    Well, I can relate to your experience. I belong to a closed A.A. group that until recently read the following; "We ask that you introduce yourself as alcoholic only", which was changed to "We ask that you introduce yourself as alcoholic."

    Another closed A.A. group that splintered off from ours and grew seven-fold merely reads the Blue Card;


    This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of A.A’s singleness of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to persons who have a desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a problem with alcohol, you are welcome to attend this meeting. We ask that when discussing our problems, we confine ourselves to those problems as they relate to alcoholism.

    (The 1987 General Service Conference made this statement available as an A.A. service piece for those groups who wish to use it.)
    General Service Office, Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163.

    This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are all here--especially newcomers. In keeping with our singleness of purpose and our Third Tradition which states that “The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking,” we ask that all who participate confine their discussion to their problems with alcohol.”

    (The 1987 General Service Conference made this statement available as an A.A. service piece for those groups who wish to use it.)

  11. After the meeting that I just came back from, I've decided I'm going to be more focused on singleness of purpose. If it bothers the andas, the addicts, and the MOTR's, tough.

  12. Well... I'm glad that there's folks like you and in my case, Gary C still around. Gary should be getting his 32 year A.A. cake this Monday... and I'll get to attend.

    I'm glad there's hardliners like you guys around and sooner or later, I'm gonna have to become one too. I may sound hard core in my internet postings, but I don't go around in meetings playing A.A. Traditions Cop. I just don't. I cringe when someone needs to be told to leave and that they might find an NA meeting at so-and-so.

    But when we've talked about this in the past, you said that some in the group would agree to take the addict/XA aside and have a one-on-one with them.

    Now Karl... I see your thread post you talked about. Good one. It was controversial and did stir the pot. About half of the folks there came to agree with you and the other half... well as expected.

    But I disagree with one assertion you made to Carol; You said something about nobody being able to get and stay sober on MOTR. Really? I see many folks who can get and stay sober on mind control... like "Just don't drink today!" and "Just don't drink, no matter what!" We have a guy, the ole "Beloved Fuzz-butt" named C**** who is sober 18 years now. He's sort of a service lemming now too. I just cringe when he shares though. I suppose he thinks he's helping some. He is. He's helping the hard drinkers in there who are socialized in A.A. and don't need to do steps to get/stay sober.

    But... it confuses the fuck out of those of us who can't stay sober on that shit. See what I mean?

  13. I logged on to SR with my wife's laptop, for some reason I am able to use it to get on, I hadn't been on for months, and after the last hour going through the addicts in AA thread I remember why. There's an hour I won't get back.

    Unbelievable, the soft pop AA is alive and well, opinions are alive and well and folks who know what they are talking about are branded intolerant. Sounds about right. I'm glad my recovery is dependent on my relationship with God and not a bunch of misinformed dipshits,I'm off to the gym.........

  14. Well change your user name, register and start posting.
    After several months without posting I decided to respond and post in that thread. An inspiration from God and this blog. I'm still optimistic that someone will understand what ASA is all about.
    AA has become what it has become because too many are willing to sit and remain silent. In doing so we are in fact condoning what's going on.
    While we don't make too many friends with this attitude we're the top picks when someone is serious about sobriety. And were the ones that the not so serious bullshitters avoid.

  15. I feel like the further I post here, the further I go into my SR grave.

    It's weird too. I was even talking to CarolD on the phone and stuff. I tried really hard to meet her one night and going to one of her meetings in the ATL. But as some of you know, the ATL isn't like a small country town you can drive up to and the traffic on the north end is... not sparse.

    I couldn't even go to see my own brother who lives up there now... near Ballground, much less her. I had to go bid a job at Sun Chemical and had just enough time to get to my motel, some sleep, to the job, and then back to the airport. My other brother, who booked my trips, wasn't looking out for my recovery or social life.

    I did manage to get to a meeting that night and I managed to call her on my way to the job sight the next morning. She even offered me dinner if I could have made it out there... which was about an hour and a half away from my "hotel". Remembering back, I'd have done it, but it was too late in the evening too. When you fly from the Mountain time standard to the East Coast in my bro's company, you get up and 5:00 am, get to the airport, do your 2 or three layovers, and get into your destination town in the evening just in time to get your rental car and to your motel. I've even got pics of my "hotel" because it sucked so bad.

    Anyway, It kind of blew me away that CarolD would come down on me so hard for duking it out with Bugsworth on that KCB thread.

  16. Carol is basically a good person, as are probably the rest of the folks at SR, however misguided. But, the good is the enemy of the best, and for me personally, getting the boot was a good thing because I'm not wasting time getting pissed at folks I've never met.

    You're right Patrick, our group will offer to meet an addict where he/she is at, especially if they are a new and confused. But if a non-alcoholic persists in trying to trample on our group conscience and The Traditions, he/she will be asked to leave. Consequently, we aren't the most popular group in the local A.A. community.

    The agency I work for owns a transitional house for men two houses away from where we meet. The guys from that house usually only come to our meeting once. Or maybe they get a sponsor (because that is what we offer) and then bail when they find out what that entails, which is the steps they way they were meant to be taken, which requires getting honest, making a commitment to live by spiritual principles, taking inventory and sharing that with other members of the group, paying back the money and making other restitution, and living a live of prayer and service. I've had one of those guys tell me that's too "hard-core" for him. I told him that he could either fuck around and do what wants and drink or get right with himself, his Creator, and the world around him.

    During the crossfire part of our meeting, we will qualify the new person. We've qualified a few right out of A.A. We give them meeting schedules for N.A. & C.A. and then sent them on their way.

    So I think that our closed meeting does fill a need here in the local recovery community, both by helping to steer the confused non-alcoholic/addict to where they can get the help they need and by offering a place where like-minded alcoholics can gather.

  17. Hoorah! We've done the same thing with our crossfire and our splinter group and other groups have condemned us for running people out. Having NA, CA, etcA pamphlets to hand them would be a nice touch.

    If we could determine that they hated A.A. and 12 Step in general, I'd like to put together a Stinkin' Thinkin' pamphlet for them. Ooh, I might be on to something.

  18. A seemingly well-meaninged SR newbie posed this;

    Hi. You know I've met addicts who insisted they weren't alcoholic thus believing they could drink. Only to find out that they couldn't control they're drinking just like any other drug. And I've met alcoholic's who believed they were safe to use/try other drugs and found the same result. Has this person ever drank? And were they able to control and enjoy? Do they think they can drink safely? If they couldn't stop when they started and they believe they can't drink safely then they probably want to stay sober from alcohol. Thus they fit Trad 3 - I would think.

    I have seen different experiences than this one. I worked with a recovered NA guy who can and does drink normally. Booze does not lead him to drugs.

    I, on the other hand, am a recovered alcoholic who, because I am recovered, does not have the desire to fuck around with drugs. I use drugs though. Coffee, for example. I also have another drug of choice; Extra Strength Excedrine. If I'm really hurting, I take two... not to exceed 4 in a 24 hour period. Why? Because it can shut down your liver and kill you.

    A sane mind doesn't want to kill the body to please itself.

    Now, if I did fuck around with drugs like say, poking smot and shit, it would probably lead me back to a drunk. That's been my experience. Keeping spiritually fit keeps me away from that. This does not include being a good boy boyscout that anti/XAers want me to be. I can be an unserene asshole, so long as I'm willing to live with the consequences. My consequences are that life is good.

    Happy New Year and Happy sobering.

  19. After I talked one time about how I knew a heroin addict who could take or leave booze and how I can take or leave drugs, it got twisted around to "Jim says it's all right to take drugs." What a crock of shit. Why would I want to take drugs? Besides having no desire to do so, I know where it would take me, back to booze. Same goes for an addict drinking booze. He might be able to take or leave it, but I've seen that take a few junkies back to shooting dope. Now there is the person like your co-worker. I know a few like that. They get by just fine, just having a few drinks and staying away from the dope. But I've never seen a real alkie mess around with drugs and be able to stay away from booze. Eventually he drinks.