A bumped up controversial topic from SR

Days Inn sucks so much ass.

Days Inn knows how to make you feel at home.

This is the ambience you get when you tell your brother-er boss that you're in recovery and like to stay somewhere nice when on the road.

Typical drive in the ATL

What's my bro doing on here? Wow.

Closed A.A. meeting and NA's?????

A newbie from SR posted this in a recently bumped up 2 year old thread that some of you's were a part of;

First, I would preface this by saying the Big Book was written in the 1940's, before most of the drugs being abused today were available. Second, professional drug/alcohol counselors recommend AA to everyone. Do you honestly believe these traditions/ if written today/ would exclude drug addicts? My history with drugs is identical to those of alcohol addicts. My AA meetings are available at the times I need and NA meetings are in bad parts of town and Im not willing to put myself at risk for exposure to potential drug dealers. This discussion has really irritated me as these people are all seeking the same solution and following the same principles. Someone confronted me at a meeting recently and was basically thrown out of the meeting because of everyone's comments about alcohol and drugs all being the same. AA is AA is AA whatever! keep your mouth shut if you approach someone in recovery. Do you really want to jeopardize someone who is TRYING and SEEKING a solution??? All you are doing is taking away the solution and creating a problem, possibly instigating a relapse. Grow up!

Wow!  Tell it like it is, SR newbie!

My take... I go to open meetings as well as closed meetings because there are good folks in both.  I know some addicts who have a good recovery program and they've had to battle the hardlined A.A.ers who remind them of the traditions.  I also know some addicts who have finally got off of their high-horse and supported their own damned N.A. meetings rather than try and turn an A.A. meeting into an Anda meeting.

When someone new comes into our (my main group) A.A. closed meeting, we ask why you are there.  One of the questions we ask you is, "Are you looking for an A.A. meeting?"  We also ask you whether you're an alcoholic or not?  Do you know what an alcoholic is?  Do you have a problem with booze?"  ... and this one is like... my fav!  "Do you want to do something about it?"  If you're confused about this or will not submit to the admission that you're an alcoholic, then maybe you're not and you're free to go.  We don't need you and we've got nothing for you.  So, in other words, "See ya!"  "Later gator!"

But at these open meetings, some folks just slobber all over and "cater" to the addict andas and go so far as to say, "We don't discriminate against the addict here.  All are equally welcome."  This is the product of the "Treatment Center" alumni in my hometown.  Of this, I am not proud.  I've heard that those who have come before me have talked to these folks and tried to change their group conscience and they just fight.  They refuse to see it any other way.  "A drug is a drug is a drug" is their motto.

I don't go to these N.A. meetings.  I don't because I'm not an addict, I can't help them and they can't help me.  But I respect their respective recovery.  I didn't make the rules.  Oh, how dare I say rules!  Traditions, whatever the hell you want to call them.  In my closed A.A. meeting, if you're not alcoholic and/or not willing to identify as "My name is ______ and I'm an alcoholic", you'll be asked to leave.  None of this anda or "... and I'm sober in recovery"... shit.  This is not Life Ring.  But... how do I feel when a new person comes to our group and isn't sure if they're alcoholic or not or if they identify as addict?  I'm uncomfortable as hell for them because I don't like them being asked to leave... or telling them that this is a closed A.A. meeting and to "Ixsnay on the addict-pay alk-tay...!"  How about, "My name is .... and I have a desire to stop drinking."  Nope.  GTFO!  You're alkie or your not.  What's better is to say, "My name is _________ and I'm here to find out if I'm alcoholic or not." 

"My name is _________ and I'm here to find out if I'm alcoholic or not."  Is this not the perfect introduction for the new person?  They don't know what an alcoholic is really... but some think they do.  The A.A. book talks in vast detail about the line between the hard drinker and the real alcoholic.  One thing I learned about me and this... topic; I lied to myself about my own identification.  This may sound pathetic, but I sort of let others label me as alcoholic or just assumed that I was an alcoholic because I couldn't handle my booze and it always got me hurt and/or in trouble.  This sounds like a good enough definition to some.  Certainly good enough for some counselors that have worked with me over the years.

But until someone set me down and asked me what I drank like... how it was with ME and booze, there was no movement.  I was just no where near "conceding to my inner most self".

Being a real alcoholic eludes so many.  I can see it.  I am partly ashamed that it eluded me for so long... that I really am an alcoholic and that I really really cannot just don't drink.  The anti/XAers hate us for this separation.  Not being able to "Just don't drink, no matter what" or "Just keep coming back, no matter what", I thought that I was just an A.A. fuck-up.  In a way this is true.  But the fact is that I'm just not like those others who don't identify.  This is as true for MOTRers as it is for addicts vs alcoholics.

I did drugs and I ain't an addict.  Like that or not.  This pisses some folks off.  It really does.  Don't believe me?  Go read that bumped up thread at SR and you'll see.  It pisses them off so much that they add things to their preamble like "We don't discriminate against the addict here."  Well guess what, treatment center alumni muther-fucker?  We don't either!

Oops.  Sorry about that.  Just had to get that off my chest.  I do love my fellow addicts in recovery though.  I'd like to start a non-A.A. spiritual 11th step meeting where we can all get together and just read the Emmitt Fox- Sermon on the Mount book or something.  Maybe some David R. Hawkins.  But then we'll probably start talking about steps and how we do them and that would be that.

________________________________

Update from SR newbie;

I do see open meetings but at lunch I have one aa place to go to (closed) and at 5pm I have another aa close to home (closed) The open ones are at 8pm and I have 2 newborns and a 4 year old. This is the only way for me to attend regularly. The NA meetings are few and far between in Oklahoma City and I have always preferred AA. What's the problem here? Are the "traditions" which were written in 1940's so important that you would ask an addict to leave? This entire thread has insulted me. I read the Big Book not NA book, I do not want to go to NA meetings even the few available as they are bad parts of town and could compromise my sobriety. I would just ask that someone explain to me how they can validate this argument on some level that would make sense because as far as I can tell, there is no argument!!

Wow!  Are you serious?  You want A.A. to cow down and cater to you?  Save the drama for yo mamma.  Take that anger and attitude and shove all that up your ass.

To think that A.A. is being accused of being a cult.  Go over to Stinkin' Thinkin' and Orange Papers and develop a hatred for A.A. and leave it the fuck alone.  You sound like a ripe prick so... I pity the folks who have to put up with you.  Maybe you can go get some booze and drink the shit.  Become a real alcoholic and shut the fuck up about the drugs.  Or... you can grow some balls, grab that NA book and refuse to fail.  Make it work for you and maybe you'll even help a fellow addict. 

Drugs and booze are different.  Booze is food and drugs are not.  They are different, despite what you say and think.

Of all the MOTRs and Andas I've seen come down the pike, you deserve no compassion.  You are giving CarolD and Dee a headache and they cannot express their true disappointment in you.  You are posting in the 12 Step Alcoholism thread.

What you really are is a troll from Stinkin' Thinkin'.  So... knowing that, I think it's kind of funny.  Those folks over there are not being fooled by you in the least.  I can tell that Tomvlle and Keith and some others are on you like stink on shit.

Happy New Year now!

A diamond in the rough at Stinkin' Thinkin' named JD

This guy is stirring things up nicely at ST;

JD says,

sorry victims, try harder to get over it someday. spending so many years going after people staying sober in AA is only rational if you need a villian for staying sick. AA must be bad, has to be absolutely terrible in all respects for your fucked up lifes to make sense. eh, Gunther?


if it were not, and people were actually staying sober their lifetimes because they are willing to do what you refuse to do, well that would make you a total fool to insist on remaining a nut case, whining about the evil AAs. it must be just awful, and the people involved have to be scum, especially and particularly the ones with decades of comfortable sobriety.


keep up the babytalk victims, as if that might be a solution to your dispair. and stay the hell away from AA. makes me ill to read how uniformly are drawn repeatedly to meetings. if you insist on being injured by listening to your betters, then you get no pity for the self-inflicted injury. better for all concerned if you stay angry and sick somewhere else alone or fanning each other’s anger between drunks.


get a different hobby, or if you prefer to continue to stay the way you are, then I wish you a loooong lifetime.

... and

JD says

nah boys and girls, I did the deal you’re doing now in the ’70s. it got old and weary for me as it will for you.


you can only ignore your failures at staying sober for so long, eventually bits and pieces of reality seep through. does take longer if you’re staying nicely pilled up or loaded, but ultimately fails.


funny as hell whenever some anti slinks back into the rooms under some variety of heat.


see you bozos around.

... and

JD says

talk about some windy bullshit! you guys can’t get it said in less that 20 pages? here’s a bit of help condensing it…


‘We hate AAs for staying sober while we can’t seem to go long without puking on our shoes. We like to bitch and moan about AA constantly because it makes us feel better for being drunken losers. We feel AA is responsible for us puking our guts out several times a month. AAs are mean, because they don’t care how we feel or consider our ideas regarding what it takes to live sober at all worthwhile, probably because of the booze on our breath when we babble them out.’


that should about cover it. feel free to copy and paste that here about 20x a day, and cross your fingers that doing that keeps a drink out of your hands for more than 20 minutes. or in Gunthar’s sorry case keeps him from fighting with every 3rd person that crosses his path.


were you able to argue your way through the anger management class G, or did they boot your ass out for being a surly nutcase? my money’s on the latter

... then BF directed him to us with this;

Ben Franklin says Just Dumb,


Hey you started out with an ad hom,right back at ya! Why don’t you go play here:


http://mcgowdog.blogspot.com/


or here:


http://www.dickb.com/


These are more like your fellas. Hell Dick will even sell you some indulgences ( look it up yourself, it might take awhile because you don’t come across as very intelligent).

... and Mike... anybody remember him?  He wrote this which prompted some ST folks to harass one of my seldom posts over at mentalhelp here;
 

Mike says




…and if anyone reading this thinks we are engaging in a lot of hyperbole, check out this long running thread at http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=9527. There’s two nuts who post there named McGowDog and Tony J who are apt to make veiled physical threats after they are prodded into the intellectual corner. It’s kind of funny at times but also has an unsettling air to it.

I say seldom because I've not posted over at Mentalhelp's "Is A.A. a Cult" blog that our Tony J frequents... but two times in the last month or so.  But those anti/XAers sure did pounce on those two posts.


Anyway, life is great and I am busy with family and work.  I don't post much and meetings are seldom.  But when I do make it to that seldom meeting, I make the most of it.  I posted this in response to Gunthar's post to my previous post at Mentalhelp;

chart - Gunthar2000 - Dec 29th 2010


@McBlowDog... It amazes me that you could even try to argue against the obvious results of the triennial survey.


The title of the chart in question is... "% of those coming to AA within the first year that have remained the indicated number of months"


Let's take a second to break this down...


"% of those coming to AA within the first year"


This indicates that this chart only focuses on AA members with less than one year.


"that have remained the indicated number of months"


This indicates that the numbers on the chart represent the percentages of members who have REMAINED the indicated number of months.


The thing about charts like this is that they are specifically designed to present data in a way that is easily understood.


You would have us believe otherwise. According to your bullsh**t explaination us "normies" are just too stupid to understand what the brilliant scientist was trying to say.


I'm going to take a big leap here in assuming that the title ascribed to the chart is an attempt to communicate to us normies what the %ages actually mean, and not some abscure, derived, tangled mess of excuses like the nonsense that you are peddling.

Then my response to Gunthar2000, which hasn't posted yet;

McGowdog Says,


Gunthar, why do you insult my username? How does that solve anything here? My username is not blowdog or blowchunks or snowplow or snowdog. It was given to me as McGowdog by some co-workers years ago. It's like me calling you Gunsuck, or nozzlesuck or gunt-hair. Where does that get us?




You can interpret the charts any way you wish. Orange has his take on A.A. and I have another. How about Agent Green? He is a non-alcoholic who has taken time out to take a closer look at Agent Orange and all of his claims. He has done some research and spent lots and lots of time to find the negative aspects of A.A. to be for sure. But as Green points out, Orange credits A.A. for nothing, even by accident, and sets out to bash the whole fellowship to the ground. He finds some info and only reports that which supports his claims and ignores sources that would go contrary to it. This Agent Green has pointed out a few discrepancies, those of which I don't have the time nor desire to bring up here. I just got off of work and am a bit tired now.


But if what Orange and Stinkin' Thinkin' says about A.A. were all true, then I'm the bad guy. There are plenty of twisted and sick individuals out there harming people and some of them drink alcohol. Some of them do drugs. I was watching a program on cable TV the other night called "Jail". Most of these folks are sick individuals usually caught at their worst moments while in the midst of a good drunk or under the influence of some drug. But despite that, they are demonstrating some of the basic forms of human sickness... selfishness, fear, dishonesty, self pity, power, control, manipulation, and other deviant behavior. Some guys are just plain a-holes and out to push people around. Now Stinkin' Thinkin' takes a snapshot of these folks as their pathetic lives cross the path of A.A.


Wow! What do you guys want? A Nobel Peace Prize*? How about get a life? I see none of this garbage you claim in my A.A. meetings within my own town/state/nation. I have yet to see myself harming people in or out of A.A. meetings the way y'all accuse the likes of me of.


I'm coming up on 7 years sober, I'm happily married, happily employed... and I have a powerful message to the curious drunk. At meetings I go to, I see nothing of you anti-AA/X-AA folks. Nothing. Not even static. The only static I see from time to time is the MOTRs battling the hardlined step workers... here and there. But they are both getting some positive results from A.A.


I could pull back from A.A. now and say, "There is no God... no Magician in the sky... running my life for me, keeping me sober." I could say I'm sober because I decided sober and that's that. But A.A. is more than not drinking for me. You want to make fun of some "socially inept" folks who stick around for alcathons during Christmas and New Years. Good for you. Hope that builds you up from where you once stood. But there was a time when I got sober and my first wife left my sober ass. She and I signed our divorce papers on December 23rd. Two days later, I was at an all night Christmas Alcathon meeting in Littleton Colorado. We were on night watch and we took calls from drunks who wanted a meeting. We went and picked them up, brought them to the club and poured them coffee. It was a blast and I met a few new drunks. I forgot my woes for a few hours. Big deal, right? Who are you to judge that?


A.A. is here to stay and I'm glad to be a part of it.

*Edited for spelling

_____________________________________________________

Ah, this just in... an anti/XAer with a lick of sense;

chronicallyable says

Good grief people! Do we wish to have a meaningfull discussion about A.A and possibly have some interesting discourse with people in the program or are we just going to be *ss***oles, which is what many people seem to be accusing a.a. members of being. I have read some exchanges with A.A poster’s, whose posts were rather innocuous, and certainly not offensive, only to see them be ripped a new one. I love the content on this site, but I find the hypocrosy on the part of some anti-a.a.er’s (and incidentally, I firmly belong in this camp!) a real turn off. If you are going to talk about the self-rightous attacks of some A.A defenders, where do you get off doing the same?

Seen In The GrapeVine

I saw this in the GrapeVine. No wonder they call it our meeting in print. It is pretty reflective of what you hear in contemporary meetings.

The article was submitted by a member and pertains to questions asked when they were answering phones at the local intergroup. Here is one of the questions and the answer given:

"My mother is a hopeless drunk-she's seventy years old-I want to put her away!" The answer: "I responded that A.A. does not use the word hopeless...."

I guess contemporary A.A. doesn't use the word hopeless. I've sat in enough of the MOTR A.A.-lite meetings to know that. Instead we sell false hope of not drinking one day at a time and things will get better. That is if the things are external. I have been down that road a time or two myself. Get sober, stay sober long enough to start feeling better, and then dash my hopes and everyone else's hopes by drinking again. I think the saddest thing I see in A.A. is an alcoholic that doesn't know that he or she is hopeless. Because it only when I get to a place of true hopelessness that I can see any real hope.

Let me see how many times the book says anything about being hopeless.

Forward To The First Edition:
"We of Alcoholics Anonymous are more than a hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body."
Until my situation seemed to be truly hopeless, I was not interested in taking any kind of spiritual action to find an answer. As long as the answer lay in another job, getting my life back together, or any external circumstance changing, I could not see the hopelessness of my condition.

From The Forward To The Second Edition, in regards to Bill 12th-Stepping Dr. Bob:
"This physician had repeatedly tried spiritual means to resolve his alcoholic dilemma but had failed. But when the broker gave him Dr. Silkworth's description of alcoholism and its hopelessness, the physician began to pursue the spiritual remedy for his malady with a willingness he never before been able to muster."
Sounds like Dr. Bob was a lot like me.

Dr. Silkworth regards Bill Wilson as an alcoholic of a type that he had come to regard as hopeless. He goes on to say that alcoholism seems to be outside the scope of medical science and that frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices to be a real answer for a real alcoholic and that unless a deep inward change occurs, there is very little hope of an alcoholic recovering. When he relates his experiences with two alcoholics, the common theme of both men's stories are that had to become hopeless to see hope.

Bill says in his story that the reason he listened to Ebby was that he was hopeless. Chapter Three spends about all the space given it talking about how the alcoholic mind is hopeless and will always drink. In Chapter Seven, it talks about dwelling on the hopeless feature of the malady and that the more hopeless an alcoholic feels, the better. I'm not in the business of selling false hope and I think that if when I work with an alcoholic and he doesn't have a true First Step Experience and leaves my house feeling more hopeless than when he got there, I haven't done my job.

Maybe the author of that article ought to read the book. Or better yet, do what's in it.

(edited font size)

Study for finals... or finish 4th Step?

Here's my opinion; you get your nose to the grindstone in those books, you don't just sit around texting and watching T.V.

You really study like your life depended on it and get the grades. Then, back to that 4th Step which will be waiting for you.

If you screw up your studies, it may be a financial burden and/or long term regrets for you in the future.

If you're truly studying and doing your best to pass those tests, I'd say you're doing God's Will at this moment.

But... don't fuck around. If you're gonna study, study. There's time to balk on your 4th Step later.

The 10th Step is about awareness

I'm working on using the 10th Step to become aware of my day... so that when I get to my nightly review, I can recall the little details about my day.  If no awareness of my day, then no recall.

The more I use the tools of 10, I think the better I am to let God discipline me the way we have just outlined.

I work with a guy who is very experienced... 23 years, in fact.  His son was killed in a horrid manner, and he has resentment.  I wish I could show him this gift we have... without doing it directly.  I think there's got to be a more hands-on approach here... but I lack his experience.  I can pray for his peace.  Meanwhile, I have much to learn from him.

A proAAer, AArdvark sheds a positive light on A.A. in an antiAA blog called Stinkin' Thinkin'

AArdvark says...There were some good times and there are some good perspectives in the rooms at times, and I was around people and sharing in their lives and that was positive. I liked the story from one guy about when he is on his deathbed and looks back to take stock of his life, he’d say, “what the hell was all that ?!” I can relate.



I don’t regret my time at AA. spent about 4 years before i flew the coop. still go back once in awhile. what i do wish i had done differently (can i call them “regrets”) is that i would have spoken up more but I didn’t have the necessary self confidence. I heard a lot of great things at meetings, real pearls of wisdom. And there were people who i really liked and respected and still do. One of the better kept secrets is that there are a large number of people who have gone to AA, got back on their feet, and moved on. Just decent people who keep their opinions to themselves and who were slow with a harsh word. People who had a lot of useful things to say and who I admired more for what they didn’t say. I remember enjoying a few leads that were from the heart and not performances. Some of the AA doctrine can be very helpful if interpreted correctly.


I really don’t think anything is achieved by bashing AA. Don’t get me wrong, I probably more than most know the weaknesses of AA. But I know too many people who went to AA religiously just like I did at the beginning only to stop after a few years. Good people. I would be a fool to condemn them. I am one of them.


So much of the criticism I think is more a manifestation of a poor self image. I know this is going to sting but I think it’s true. If you don’t like AA, don’t go. But I think you can do more to help the “cause” by going. Speak your mind. If people confront you or challenge you, stand your ground. There’s a good chance that there will be others who think like you do. Let them know what you think. Let them see that you can beat your addiction without sacrificing your will.


AA in many ways gave me an avenue to practice facing the real world. I can remember challenging dogma at meetings and being confronted back. Sometimes I wanted to crawl under my chair rather than have to face a conflict which is still a challenge for me. I also remember people coming to me after a meeting and telling me that they liked what I said. Not everyone who goes to AA is a moron. Many are good, honorable people who find AA as a nice place to socialize and get a sense of community. In fact there’s a good chance that they are some of the best people around. Beating the booze is no small feat. There’s a good chance that if you reject AA early in your recovery that you may not have anywhere to go. I live in an urban area and had a pretty wide range of meetings to choose from. I hope that’s true in your case.

Now, some comments on this fair and balanced post...

Gunthar2000 says Ahhh! It’s the old, “AA members can run around telling everyone that AA is a miracle, but anyone who speaks out about bad experiences in AA is just a basher,” routine.



I will not allow anyone to shame and manipulate me into shutting down.


People need to know about the abuse that goes on in AA.


AA fucks up people’s lives, and I happen to care about people… It has nothing to do with poor self-image, and I find it absolutely repulsive that you could suggest such a thing.


Please let me know if any positions open up on the throne of judgment… When I get hired, we can sit up there together and fix all of the little people.

... then

AnnaZed says Ah AArdvark, what a sweet tender humble self-effacing and inspiring message of tolerance and love. It almost made me well up inside except that your oblivious hypocrisy, complete lack of self-awareness, spurious an inane advice combined with your plain stupid and insulting characterization of the other posters here made bile rise in my throat instead. Fuck off!

Fuck off?  Really, AnnaZed?  Just because you have that cunt between your legs doesn't keep the shit from your mouth, huh?  No longer do you bitches at ST get any special treatment for being lady-like.  You are a dirt squirrel.

Martha says Criticism of aa is a manifestation of poor self image? That is a crock. One of the worst things about AA is that they want you to take on a poor self-image. Ego deflation is one of their central methods of getting you to stop thinking and speak in trite platitudes and slogans. AA does much more harm than good. 5% success rate after a year? People who quit on their own have more success. You go in desperation to a meeting because you want to learn about how to stop drinking and the first step you have to work is to give up and say you are powerless? No thanks. Yes a few people got something out of it, but many many more were harmed.



If this be bashing make the most of it.

What good anti/XAer bashing site would be complete without a cult blast?

LUCY says Aarvark – Stick around and learn something. You may be out of the cult, but the cult isn’t out of you.

Harold says ...If we are ever to break the strangle hold that AA has on both the public’s mind and addiction treatment we need much more “AA bashing.” In fact as that song goes we’ve only just begun.

YOU'VE ONLY JUST BEGUN... TO SUCK...

Gunthar2000 says …



Ahhh! It’s the old, “If you’re not getting sober in AA, you are all alone,” routine.

So, what you've learned about Stinkin' Thinkin', AArdvark, is that you have to hate and bash A.A. or you're not welcome and you're stupid.  Nice post, btw.  Notice how nobody there gave you an ounce of credit for your "experience", of which they have no business commenting on nor arguing in the first place? 

That's because you're a threat to them and their worthless lives.

Recovered? Recovering? In Recovery? Always recovering? Disease?

I'm gonna tell you straight up,  I'm recovered.

You may be recovering.  That's fine with me.  You may even be "in recovery".  You might even cite you're 25 years of "recovering".

That's fine with me.  No skin off my back. 

Recovering is for people who don't want to do / don't need to do steps... also for people who hate A.A.

Here's a word you could throw into the mix; cured.  Now, I'm not cured.  I don't believe I could successfully go back to drinking and do it successfully.  Nor do I want to.  That's why I'm recovered.

Now, is alcoholism a disease for real alcoholics?  I believe not.  Alcoholics are fuck-ups.  That's a fact.  Getting recovered gives me a daily reprieve from being a fuck-up.  A.A. is for fuck-ups.

Wouldn't you like to be a reprieved fuck-up too?

_______________________________________________________

People who say they are recovering... are not.    - R.I.P. Frank McKibbon

The Lord's Prayer

They're discussing this "topic" over at SR and I finally decided to delve into it... aka read it, and it... the thread... met my expectations.

It was all I thought it could be.

Someone introducing an opinion on the tradition/custom of closing an A.A. meeting with the Lord's Prayer.  Edit: I'd go so far as to say it appears they are merely asking questions about it and others have opinions about it... but the whole topic is controversial in nature.  Is the whole custom not a violation of one of the 12 traditions?  Technically, yeah, possibly... if taken out of context.  So, it's a Christian prayer.  Big deal.  BFD.  Are Christian prayers a crime?  No.  Does the book not say "Be quick to see where religious people are right?  Make use of what they offer?"  Yes.  They're offering something and some like to whine and bitch.  That's what this is about.  You're not a Christian?  Fine.  I don't really give a fuck.  Do you?  Really?  I like to fart when I'm up a tree.  Do you care about that too?

BP added a piece that caught my eye.  This is sort of what I would have said... if given the chance;

Fox's chapter on The Lord's Prayer allows me to see and experience the prayer on a deeper level. Since then I have not been able to say the prayer at the end of the meeting without real concentration and contemplation on every word. By the way it ends with AMEN, not "keep coming back, it works if you work it". A greater consideration would be this.....instead of why do we use the Lord's Prayer, why do we defile such a prayer with some treatment center chant like " Keep Coming Back....blah blah blah".

Yeah!  Read the damned Fox's breakdown of it and at least see what you think.  If that doesn't have you really absorbing every word, then turn it loose and take two steps back and don't join the damned circle when they do the prayer.  Who gives a shit?

It's really about you, isn't it... Ananda?  I don't give a shit if you like the prayer or not.  Start an Athiests are Us meeting if you'd like.  Whistle Dixie through your left nostril during the prayer.  Fart the National Anthem if you'd like.  But get off of yourself.  And if you're gonna a take the trouble to go (sorry for spelling), whip out a new tab and google Group Conscience for Christ's Sake!

And BP!  No shit!  I hate the chanting at the end; "It works if you work it!"  So some of us added "...and it sucks if you don't, because you're worth it!"  Chanting sucks and is for losers.  You might as well say, "We don't need no whiskey sours, we got us a Higher Powerz!"

Oh yeah.  Lord's Prayer.  If you don't like it, form a group that doesn't use it and shut the fuck up about it.  Or start a wetoded thread about it.

Have a nice day.

Big Book Thumper

So I guess I'm a Big Book thumper because I read it and did what it said.

So... I guess I'm also a car mechanic thumper, a culinary thumper, a City Worker thumper, a pizza maker thumper, a (fill in the blank) thumper.

Anytime you RTFM... that's translated to you civilians as Read The Fucking Manual... you're a thumper too! 

Oh, and anytime you read those directions, do what it says, and discuss your experience in it, you piss someone off.

Joe, the PT:  So, I cooked a pizza and it was good.

Bob, the MOTR pizza maker; Well I cooked the pizza and it sucked.  The cardboard was hard to chew and the plastic burned my tongue.  I'm gonna find another food.  Pizza sucks!  This whole program sucks!  You Goddamned pizza thumpers!

Let's play MOTR Bingo, shall we?

I'd like to pick on SR's 12 Step thread for the moment.

Why?  Because I'm compassionate for the folks over there who are still trying to herd in the cats who are the anti/XAer wolves in sheeps clothing, that's why.

You get an X for each time you have one of Carol's "Big Book Quote, 24 Hours a Day, or Daily Reflections"clean up the toy box for the kiddies in Romper Room Posts, you get an X for each time you see a "Question: Let's bash A.A. today Thread", an X for a "Lord's Prayer in A.A." thread, an X for a "Skimping on my prayers" thread, an x for a "Your reason for your recovery" thread, and an "O" for a bonifide "A.A. topic type thread.

OK, ready?

X wins the square!  Ahhh shucks!!!!!!!!!!

Chops from SR has started a thread called "Question"

Chops from SR says,

Question
____________________________________


Trying to get something straight in my head.


It seems that most people in here who are in AA and follow the suggested program of the 12 steps support our brother and sister alcoholics who have found an alternate way to stay sober.


They are recovering / have recovered through another spiritual approach.


But the minute they step into AA and are not working the steps they are now unrecovered or a crazy or dry or a dry drunk, just abstinent etc. ?

So Alcoholic "A" has their own program and it has worked for him and he is content with that, "A" decides to go to AA for the fellowship, the company, who knows, the coffee or whatever. He decides not to engage in the 12 steps. Maybe he shares what worked for him. Does he then go from the category of someone who is recovered through alternative means to someone who is just dry because he walked into AA?


I swear I am not trolling:-) I am trying to get my head around this.


So there are other ways to recover but if you are in AA there is only one way? And how does that jive with the whole fact that you are a member of AA if you say you are.

Then after some reasonable responses, the OP's tone changes expectedly, and goes to this;

So other recovery methods are cool but just stay out of our house. :-)

Quote: Given by a proA.A.er;

We do a real disservice to the newcomer and to AA, however, when our meetings contain a confusing number of ideas and methods. As a home group member, it is my responsibility to make sure my group sticks on topic and sticks to the solution contained in the BB.

The results of not sticking to this common solution are obvious to anyone in AA. Wander over to the newcomer section and read of the hundreds of people all pursuing their own solution who continually relapse and can't stay sober. And then compare it to the results of those who take the 12 Steps and continue to live by spiritual principles. I don't see that latter group relapsing every few months.

I really do want the hand of AA to be there for the next guy. I believe our program of recovery is a life saver for the hopeless alcoholic. If that message is lost in the sea of everyone's personal opinion on how to stay sober, that hand doesn't reach many people.

Then Chops, the OP translates the above to this, after it gets filtered through his anti/XAer head;

YG says;

What anyone else does is of no real concern of mine but im not going to let the next me come in and get dead because of someone elses opinions who looks good in meetings....its like the pied piper of hamlin sometimes...lets follow him off the cliff he plays a great tune!

Then M says;

Chops, people think what they think. Spending one more second trying to figure out why people think the way they do is purely a waste of time. You'll never come up with an answer because there is no answer. Take care of your own thinking and stop worrying about what others do.

Then Chops responds;

You assume someone else's method will lead them off the cliff.


M, yeah solid advice, I am more baffled than before:-)


Onward and forward....


thanks

Hey Chops, do you want other peoples' opinions or not?  You do, but then you want to try to bash them in with your anti/XAers Orange tools you've been given. 
_________________________________________

Now... my take;

If you don't like A.A. for any reason, you're welcome to try something else.  You can go hijack an A.A. meeting/group and impress your other methods upon those in there if you'd like.

Truth be told, in most meetings around the world, you'll be welcomed with open arms.  There are probably very few groups in the world statistically... that actually work the A.A. program.  You hear middle of the road all the time in most meetings.  I know this for a fact because I've seen it high and low; "Just don't drink, no matter what."  "You have to really want it."  "Keep coming back."

In groups where they work steps, they say things like "What brings you here?"  and "What makes you think you're an alcoholic?"  And... "What do you drink like?  Tell us about you and booze."  and... "Maybe you're not an alcoholic.  You ever think of that?"

Now, if you want to find another way to get and stay sober, that's great.  This should take the burden off, not add to it.  But go start your own damned meeting.  Or go to one of the existing MOTR meetings that are so prevalent in the real world.  But don't focus your beady little eyes and point your miserly little fingers at the Big Book Thumper when he steps up and says, "Fine for you.  But that shit does not work for me.  I do what's in this book.  Do what's in this book with me and we can rap about it.  But until then, I'm not interested in your opinion of what I do."

Chops:

I consider you a friend dude, so I can say it like this, will you post a link citing a source of where you get the current numbers on AA success rates or have you just heard and said a number so many times that your starting to believe it as truth?



Seriously Mk, point me to the statistical study that can show me World Wide AA success rates.........


We have no spiritual monopoly dude, our basic text states it, we only have a way that worked for us. Assuming that other methods are failing to keep others sober smacks of BS.


If our message is so strong then why do we need to denigrate other messages.
 
Then a MOTRer from the Old School pipes in;

i Just Thank God i am Not a BB Thumper.. i have had more than a few People at A.A. tell me they Like my "Attitude" (i have an Open Mind) i have No Business Trying to "Make" anyone Find their Own Path to Lasting Happy Sobriety..

Hey, what we need to do is get rid of the A.A. program and throw those God-fearin' Faith Healing Big Book Thumpers out of A.A. and out of recovery.  They have no right.  We should pour booze down their throats too because they have no business even being sober.  They have no right!

Oh, and Keep It Green!

K from Stinkin' Thinkin' plays troll on the Sober Recovery forum

Here's how someone like K pulls the heartstrings of some of the sincere A.A. folk over at SR on the 12 Step Subforum and a number of good posters give him advice galore and he/she/it leads them down a path of... tomfuckery;

#1)


k


Do all alcoholics suffer depression?
---------------------------


I hear people in AA meetings say they drank when they were happy, I also hear more so with females that they drank to try and ease depression.


A few questions first how can somebody who doesn't suffer depression sponsor somebody who does, they drank for totally different reasons.


If you drink to ease depression do you think that means you are not what you might call a real alcoholic.


The AA promises describe somebody who is being cured of depression, yet not all alcoholics are depressives, apart from the depression caused by alcohol itself. In fact from studies I have read most male alcoholics have no more incidence of depression than the general population.


Also the 12 steps are clearly about morality, does mean being a depressed means you are immoral? __________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.

____________________________________________________
#2
T

I actually don't understand what you mean. I think I remember you trying to see a connection between shyness and immorality once too. I didn't understand that either. Are you dealing with the notion that you are or were a bad person?
_____________________________________________

#3
kj

A few questions first how can somebody who doesn't suffer depression sponsor somebody who does, they drank for totally different reasons.

Because the reasons I drank have no bearing on why I am an alcoholic. And those reasons have no bearing on AA's solution for alcoholism.

The Doctor's Opinion talks about classifying the types of alcoholics. The one in denial, the happy drunk, the depressive, etc. It's a trap in the book. The conclusion is IT JUST DOESN"T MATTER. If you have this particular reaction to booze, you are one of us. And the same solution that works for me will work for you.

You have a point, K. If I think I drank for 'reasons', maybe I'm not alcoholic. Take care of those reasons and the drinking problem will be solved.

But that's not me. The difference is plainly spelled out in the first 8+23 pages of the book.

If you've been around AA for a while, and don't understand this, I suggest getting with a knowledgeable sponsor and getting a real First Step experience for yourself. It's more work than trying to define differences between me and the alkie that has been there before, but it's the pathway to freedom.

Identifying differences allows my ego the illusion of control.
_________________________________________

#4

kj

The 12 Steps are not about morality. I've seen hundreds of alcoholics fail to stay sober because they falsely believed that if they just 'got good' or tried to live a moral life, they wouldn't drink. That kind of thinking kills people.

'If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago....We could try with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there.'

This is exactly the open-mindedness that is required. You have this idea or belief about the steps and about alcoholism that is blocking you from the experience. Set aside that pre-conceived notion about what alcoholism, the Steps, and a higher power is, and just have the experience that comes about by taking a few simple actions.

___________________________________________________________

#5

P

Bill W, the cofounder of AA, suffered from severe bouts of depression for nearly his entire adult life--even after he got sober.

Clinical depression is a mental illness. It's a chemical imbalance in the brain that involves neurotransmitters.

Alcoholism is an illness that involves an adverse reaction when alcohol is put into the body and a mental component, similar to amnesia or delusion, that the person will not have this adverse reaction when alcohol is put into the body.

Alcohol is also a depressant. It affects the central nervous system. It can cause depression in those who do not have a neurotransmitter imbalance. Typically their depression fades when they cease drinking. The clinically depressed person will continue to suffer from depression, even after they cease drinking, because the alcohol is not a component. Their brain chemistry is the cause of their depression.

Some alcoholics may believe they are drinking to relieve their depression, but a REAL alcoholic drinks because they are alcoholic, not because they are depressed. They'd be drinking with or without the chemical imbalance. The drinking may make their depression worse, though, as alcohol is a depressant.

In other words, they are separate illnesses.
__________________________________________

#6
PC

Why don't you just quit going to AA meetings K??
_______________________________________________

#7
K

PC says, "Why don't you just quit going to AA meetings Kurt?? "
Have done, although went back recently out of desperation. had people who know nothing about me implying things about me.


Infact during my time away from AA i had my best period of sobriety. That flies in the face of if you stop going to AA meetings you'll drink that some AAers claim.


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.
__________________________________

#8

K


AA makes me feel guilty M and guilt equals depression which makes it harder for me to resist drink.


In the AA meetings i attended i feel there is a defeatist attitude to life, ambitions are frowned upon.


I believe hope just as much the realisation of the hope is good for psycholgical well being


I don't believe ambitions are bad especially when I am only in my early thirties! when you think of yourself as powerless over life I think it is unhealthy.


being powerless over life equals depression which means its harder to resist drink.


There is another reason why I didn't drink in that period but that's personal.


I once said to my doctor that the only way i can quit drink is if my life gets better or it gets worse.


Maybe AA is right and that i want too much out of life I really really hope not


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference
______________________________
#9

kj

K says, “AA makes me feel guilty mark and guilt equals depression which makes it harder for me to resist drink.”

K, in reading your last couple of posts, an idea comes to me.

I don't know your situation, so I'm out on a limb and shooting in the dark. There is nothing about the AA program I know that involves resisting a drink. Nothing.

A set of actions that lead me to a spiritual awakening that removes my problem with alcohol and takes me to a life better than I've ever known. That's the AA program I know.

Some of the things you say you hear at meetings, some of the attitudes expressed there, are not the AA program of recovery.

Far too common is a group of people sitting around not drinking and talking about their problems and calling it AA. I agree with you. There is a vast feeling of despair and hopelessness in those rooms, interrupted occasionally by a cynical laugh.

It's like my old view of organized religions. I would find some members of whatever group who were really **** poor examples of that group and use them as a reason to discount the group (or religion, in this demonstration).

Same with AA. I can find some really **** poor, un-spiritually fit people who call themselves members of AA, who are in no way living the program of AA, and decide that AA sucks. I can do that even today. It feels good, and my ego thrives on it.

But that doesn't work for me. It doesn't keep me happy, and it most likely won't keep me sober. Instead, I sought out those who carried the message of AA. Those who could show me the directions for having a spiritual experience of my own. Truthfully, they weren't necessarily easy to find. But they are there. They have a Big Book and they actually follow the principles outlined in that book.

______________

#10
B

K says, “Also the 12 steps are clearly about morality, does mean being a depressed means you are immoral?”

First of all - the steps are about spirituality, not morality (church people might not see the difference).

Also, I may not know much about clinically depression, but I do know a lot about about despair. When I tried to quit drinking on my own, despair was was akin to going into a tail-spin for me. I could never pull out of it on my own. Sometimes it lasted for days and I was beginning to suspect it might be some form of clinical depression. However, because I lacked health insurance, I put off seeking professional help.

Then I got a job as an over-the-road truck driver and my despair became worse than ever. Fortunately, I was working steps 10,11 & 12 daily by then and found that if I focused on them 24 by 7, it relieved all of my emotional problems, not just my obsession to drink.

___________________________________________

Now... K goes into an all-out bitchfest over A.A. in the 12 Step subforum seemingly just to get a rise out of other posters there;

K says;
Maybe show a bit of respect and stop demeaning people who don't conform to your religion.








12 steps and big book was harmful to me.


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference

K, you wouldn't know respect if you found yourself down at the bus station passing out free blowjobs in the men's restroom.


Who are you to demand respect?


Now, the object of K's bitchfest;

NS says,
One last thing K. I have no issue with SMART or other recovery options (AA is not the only game in town and I am happy for anyone who beats alcoholism), they are not what I want personally, so I don't go to those threads and talk about AA because I do respect them. May I ask why you are bringing those here? They are not on trial on this thread, no one is bashing them.

Then, after that fair and gracious post, K comes back with this;
 

K says,
A newcommer is a newcommer (ie you don't know anything about them) don't try to be there psychologist by forcing what you think is best for them








Take what you need and leave the rest. If anybody grandiose claims about AAs success, then we have to look at statistical evidense. Of which there is none.






AAs success as never been tested in a court of law. If you look at the program its clearly a program that wants to make immoral people moral so its hardly surprising people are court mandated.


Infact I think it serves better at dealing with criminals than alcoholics.


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.

K says,

"People like you You really don't listen do you. could be responsible for people who shouldn't be in AA comitting suicide. How your conscious is clean is beyond me.







I recently had a friend who recently committed suicide. He was schizophrenic which in turn lead to depression, he self medicated with alcohol. Not many people new of his schizophrenia.


His problem was schizophrenia not his inflated ego. He didn't need to go around apologising to people or praying to god.






AAs answer isd you would have let him sit in a meeting, convince him that if he doesn't do the AA way then he'll drink and die. Come on lets have some rigorous honesty.






Nobody ever comes out of their first meeting with a balanced real view of how to deal with their alcoholism.


ie lots treatment of option available


I must seek medical treatment otherwise the steps won't work as dealing with my mental illness is paramount to acheiving long term good sobriety






You are not qualified to make judgements about why people go back drinking."

More wasted grace headed K's way;

This is a 12 Step support forum so, of course, it is the 12 steps that we share as our solution but we are only a small fraction of the whole of the Sober Recovery community.




Alcoholism and illnesses which can lead to alcoholism can be devastating to those suffering and those around them. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.

Now an appeal to ask K, the Piece of Shit... remember that one K?  I do... K, the POS, to leave the thread and go back to his/her/it's troll hole;

OK K, this is absolutely foolish. There have been no trials, no tests. Jellinek is often mis-quoted by people here trying to dis-prove AA. AA has nothing to prove. I have been sober for 20 years because of AA, so my experience is that it works quite well. I was illiterate when I got here, but now I am earning an MBA. I was unemployable when I got here yet have had the same job for almost 16 years. I am not discounting your experience, but when you say AA does not help people stop drinking you are being foolish. This thread has nothing to do with that at all. Why do you wish to hijack it under the guise of helping people?




C'mon K, please!

Now, K really starts to get exposed, just like Stinkin' Thinkin', Mike blame denial whateverthefuck, Orange, etc...;

Quote by K:

AA has had its day. It cannot survive on scale it is now that internet has exposed the truth of its success rate.



Again K, you are showing your foolishness here.



There are about 1 million A.A. members in the U.S., according to the official A.A. survey. There is not even an accurate account of how many people came to meetings, and as anyone who has a clue, meeting attendance does not mean one has tried AA, that only means you sat your butt in a chair for an hour.



As far as the claim on the Orange Papers that AA has a less than 2% success rate. That would mean that 99 million raving alcoholics would have had to have come to A.A. meetings and failed, to balance out that paltry 1 million who got sober.



The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. That means that we would have to run 4 million people roughly through a few A.A. meetings in order to come out with 1 million people who stay in A.A. and get a bit of sobriety. With 10 million people in the U.S. classified as alcohol dependent, that means that we would have to conclude that nowadays about 40% of the alcoholics in the U.S. end up with a little bit of contact with A.A. at one time or another during their lives. And in fact, as a ball park estimate, this 40% figure matches up at least reasonably well with some very well done National Institute of Health studies.



Now having said all that, I could care less about statistics.



You really ought to stick to the secular recovery threads K, you are here to cause trouble and I will not turn a blind eye to your BS. I do not attack the way you get sober, why do you insist on attacking mine? And please stop lying that you are trying to help people. You are here to stir the pot

... and he/she/it just goes on and on and on...

The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists.



AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever. many parameters have been used to analyze for success but AA has had zero affect.


NHS Evidence - Mental health - Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programmes for alcohol dependence






Anybody ever heard of the placebo affect. Clearly none of you on here understand it.






I'll quote what my father said "AA is an evil organisation keep away from it".






I'm sorry I think the doctor is wrong its well known there are many causes of alcoholism such as in my case enough exposure to alcohol to create tolerance and withdrawall and mental illness.


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.

Now some more..

K says,

Please, please respond to this







I have seen a person attempt suicide because of depression. I have heard them make their pre suicide attempt speech, using all the self loathing terms thats used in the big book to describe what all alcoholics are suposed to be like.






Recognised treatment for depression is to write whats good about you.






The big book is full hatred of alcoholics and hence hatred for many mentally ill people.






An alcoholic was abused as a kid homeless and mentally ill i need a drink


AAs (more specifically the big book) response stop being self centred and selfish, stop trying to be the actor and controlling your life. confess your sins you are spiritually unfit.






Its vile and degrading


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.

Respond to this?  Ummm... WAA! Now, here's how a proA.A.er treats a baby milk fed boy;

You've definitely convinced me. I'm quitting AA. Who is with me? B? S?

More classic K;

We can probably assume from what hes said then that as there is no overall difference in various treatments then AA is must be wiorse than other treatments for people with mental illness, I tend to agree with that

...

Making people there mental illness down to sin and morality in the 21st century is disgusting

Hello K.  This is the English Language speaking.  Have we met before?

Originally Posted by k


The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists.


AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever. many parameters have been used to analyze for success but AA has had zero affect.


 Originally Posted by k



The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists.


AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever. many parameters have been used to analyze for success but AA has had zero affect.



Originally Posted by k



The article you quote is pure propoganda I'm graduate of mathematics I understand statistics more than the person who wrote this article. It would be laughed it by clinical scientists.


AA has never ever been prooved to cure people of alcoholism, ever. many parameters have been used to analyze for success but AA has had zero affect.

Now... maybe I need to back off of K.  Maybe I'm being harsh.

Oh, maybe not;

another KJ says,

"Thanks for coming on the 12 STEP FORUM and bashing our program.




I hope you find some peace in your life. Maybe you've even turned a few people off recovery in general with your confusingly sharp comments."

K

I just hope that I have encoraged people to think twice with who they are dealing with when a newcommer comes through the door.



Mentally ill peoples priority in order to combat their alcoholism is deal with the mental health issues. Firstly by getting off the booze possibly with a detox.


The big book is just an opinion


__________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.

K;

AA is not for me and its not for everybody



I remember though that overpassion is what turned anakin intom darth vader. I must also remember this too. LOL!
 _________________


God, grant me the serenity


to accept the things I cannot change;


the courage to change the things I can;


and the wisdom to know the difference.

May the Force be with you K.  Shozbot, Nanu Fucking Nanu.
... and yet another Pro-A.A.ers retort to K's attempted anti/XAer slam;

You've definitely convinced me. I'm quitting AA. Who is with me? B? NS?






I have tried quitting AA dozens of times. The problem is, even though it is fallible. It is still the best recovery I have found so far.



SMART and Rational Recovery are little more than psychological tricks&tips that only help those who never drank to the point of developing all 3 aspects of full-blown alcoholism;



A allergy of the body

An obsession of the mind

A spiritual malady

Another proAAer comments on K's bullshit;

Originally Posted by k

Anybody ever heard of the placebo affect. Clearly none of you on here understand it.

It's the placebo effect, not affect, and funny you should trot that out in this discussion as there is tremendous argument in the medical community over it's effectiveness.

__________________

All quotes are from the Alcoholics Anonymous.1st Edition

Ha Ha K!  Bitchslap!

Originally Posted by k


The big book is just an opinion

...and YET another classy proA.A.er;

So is that ^^^

_______________________________________

254. kurtrambis (aka k) says



K, so you got beat up in AA?


Also whats a horn dog?